The Moral Effect Theory v2.0

[Suicide Mouse 50]

snip

Loved it. I actually agree with you' date=' I can't dig up the post by my intention was the have consequence to your actions but not penalty. How this will translate to a mechanic is yet to be seen, but killing players will have a consequence, but this consequence won't be a penalty, but it will reflect a player choice. That choice will have consequences, bad ones if you don't want to become that type of person. If you do want to become that type of person, then they are not bad.

[/quote']

Well, it's great to see that the boss got the idea. Though in the image I was superficial as crap to make it short and direct, the concept is much more deeper. Consequences aren't synonymous to penalty, it's just something to give weight to your decisions. Like you've said, if you want to be a killer you need to live in a killer's world, which might just not be the thing you wanted in the first place. People living with their actions. :3

I just have no idea how you can possibly achieve this, but if you do I'll give you my soul.

[scoffield77@gmail.com 192]

it's just something to give weight to your decisions. Like you've said' date=' if you want to be a killer you need to live in a killer's world, which might just not be the thing you wanted in the first place. People living with their actions.

[/quote']

I agree 100% with that statement, there needs to be some weight to your actions not a 2 ton wrecking ball but just enough to make you think before you shoot

[joikd 25]

I don't need DayZ to tell me my emotional state. It does an excellent job now of creating the situations for me to feel emotions on my own. I had many emotions the first time I found different kinds of loot, saw someone/zombies, shot at someone/zombies, was shot at, attacked by one zombie, attacked by a horde, died, and killed someone/zombie, etc.. Over time some of the emotions increased, diminished or changed.

Now I will kill survivor or zombie with little remorse and less adrenaline rush--the type of loot the body has on it can still make me feel pleased or disappointed. But, over time I think that will diminish. I am turning into a cold-blooded, emotionless survivor (in-game, of course). But, I am starting to get lonely. At some point I may try to partner up (maybe take a noob under my wing, or find another loner in the north). Or, maybe I will try to redeem my murderous ways by helping people--I don't enjoy the killing (it kind of nags at me). None of these emotions were forced on me by DayZ--the choices I made caused the emotions.

Basically, don't tell me my mental/emotional state. Let me experience and feel on my own, thank you very much.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

It won't tell you what to feel but it will show you very clearly that what you do affects this new world you're in, so you should think before acting.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

what about the psychological affect the whole zombie apocalypse would have on everyone? or would that be too mean to survivors

[Suicide Mouse 50]

what about the psychological affect the whole zombie apocalypse would have on everyone? or would that be too mean to survivors

I'm sorry, I didn't quite get your point.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

what about the psychological affect the whole zombie apocalypse would have on everyone? or would that be too mean to survivors

I'm sorry' date=' I didn't quite get your point.

[/quote']

basically im saying why limit psychological effects to murder? watching people die/zombie apocalypse would have an effect on all players, not just bandits

[Suicide Mouse 50]

what about the psychological affect the whole zombie apocalypse would have on everyone? or would that be too mean to survivors

I'm sorry' date=' I didn't quite get your point.

[/quote']

basically im saying why limit psychological effects to murder? watching people die/zombie apocalypse would have an effect on all players, not just bandits

Oh well, that's the whole point of the thread. Having effects for several kinds of actions. I used the murder on the image to illustrate it, as it is the most common problem right now, but this could be implemented much beyond -I hope-

[rocket 16567]

Definitely continue the discussion (constructively) I'm interested to see how this one pans out from all sides.

[super pretendo 2]

Have reincarnation be effected by karma. Bam. Slightly better/worse equipment and spawn locations based on karma.

[Zombie Squirrel 5]

On the immersion and virtuality of killing somebody - value of human (virtual) life. I have two thoughts on the subject:

1) VALUE OF LIFE. Currently, it lays mostly in the equipment (translate into time spent on game) - more eq, the more you have been playing (wasting your RL time on DayZ:)). On my first player kill, I felt pretty bad for killing him in cold blood (a bandit, but nevertheless, he had four bloodpacks, so I kept thinking, what if he was trying to help people?), especially as he never saw me (M9SD from behind, he surprised me looting a house and I kept hidden once I heard his gunshots outside). The more value your "life" has, the more you will give it to others (well, borderline psychotic and empathy-less cases aside) - if you spend days amassing loot, you will more easily imagine what it is to loose it instantly, all that time spent from your RL (if you have one :))

One problem is with the respawn system. If you don't keep days finding loot, getting emotionally attached to your character, but just respawn and run back to find the first CZ550 you find and go on a killing spree, you don't attach to your character that much, as you can easily respawn and repeat. Please, some of you CZ bandits, say your thoughts if that's valid.

So if you die many times, it's easier to kill other players - as you don't have to value your own "life", you give lower value to theirs.

SUGGESTION: RESPAWN TIMER. Iron-Man Perma-Death. You die, you cannot respawn until next [insert arbitrary time period here, let's say a day, 12h, or at least 6h]. Because you would fear "death" more, perhaps you would be more empatic to others' deaths. This would not stop the bandits, which is a good thing. They are needed for the atmosphere. It would just stop the run&gun&respawn&repeat bandits. I am not sure how your playerbase would take it, though. But while still in Alpha, that's a good time to try out, no? Perhaps as an experiment for a few days.

Might make you value your life, and probably also the others', a lot more. Gameplay would have to be tweaked, so the game doesn't turn to slow-paced sneak everywhere never go into zombie town snailplay, though.

2) VIRTUAL AVATARS NOT REAL ENOUGH

As OP wrote, killing somebody ingame is not like in RL. If you aren't immersed enough in the game, you don't take the others as real people. Especially as they are currently somewhat rigidly animated avatars looking all the same (PMC guy). Player skins would help a tiny bit on the "random PMC guy I just killed".

SUGGESTION: SCREAMING AND PAIN FX. Make the act of killing somebody more "real". FX here. Use the Arma2 wounded (lying on ground squirming around in pain) animation for dying players. Even for ones dropped by CZ round from afar. Not just drop down dead. Use scream sound FX. You wound somebody, they squirm around screaming their lungs off from pain. Drop lotsa blood. Especially the sound would help - make several screams so it doesn't sound too artificial repeating itself.

Executive summary:

Make players think about others' life by valuing their own virtual life more with respawn timer as representing emotional and time investment into playing. Make players visualise the death of others by implementing more lifelike (or exagerrated) wounded and pain and dying effects of wounded or killed players, so they can feel they killed a person not some random avatar which could well be just an AI.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

On the immersion and virtuality of killing somebody - value of human (virtual) life. I have two thoughts on the subject:

1) VALUE OF LIFE. Currently' date=' it lays mostly in the equipment (translate into time spent on game) - more eq, the more you have been playing (wasting your RL time on DayZ:)). On my first player kill, I felt pretty bad for killing him in cold blood (a bandit, but nevertheless, he had four bloodpacks, so I kept thinking, what if he was trying to help people?), especially as he never saw me (M9SD from behind, he surprised me looting a house and I kept hidden once I heard his gunshots outside). The more value your "life" has, the more you will give it to others (well, borderline psychotic and empathy-less cases aside) - if you spend days amassing loot, you will more easily imagine what it is to loose it instantly, all that time spent from your RL (if you have one :))

One problem is with the respawn system. If you don't keep days finding loot, getting emotionally attached to your character, but just respawn and run back to find the first CZ550 you find and go on a killing spree, you don't attach to your character that much, as you can easily respawn and repeat. Please, some of you CZ bandits, say your thoughts if that's valid.

So if you die many times, it's easier to kill other players - as you don't have to value your own "life", you give lower value to theirs.

SUGGESTION: RESPAWN TIMER. Iron-Man Perma-Death. You die, you cannot respawn until next [insert arbitrary time period here, let's say a day, 12h, or at least 6h']. Because you would fear "death" more, perhaps you would be more empatic to others' deaths. This would not stop the bandits, which is a good thing. They are needed for the atmosphere. It would just stop the run&gun&respawn&repeat bandits. I am not sure how your playerbase would take it, though. But while still in Alpha, that's a good time to try out, no? Perhaps as an experiment for a few days.

Might make you value your life, and probably also the others', a lot more. Gameplay would have to be tweaked, so the game doesn't turn to slow-paced sneak everywhere never go into zombie town snailplay, though.

2) VIRTUAL AVATARS NOT REAL ENOUGH

As OP wrote, killing somebody ingame is not like in RL. If you aren't immersed enough in the game, you don't take the others as real people. Especially as they are currently somewhat rigidly animated avatars looking all the same (PMC guy). Player skins would help a tiny bit on the "random PMC guy I just killed".

SUGGESTION: SCREAMING AND PAIN FX. Make the act of killing somebody more "real". FX here. Use the Arma2 wounded (lying on ground squirming around in pain) animation for dying players. Even for ones dropped by CZ round from afar. Not just drop down dead. Use scream sound FX. You wound somebody, they squirm around screaming their lungs off from pain. Drop lotsa blood. Especially the sound would help - make several screams so it doesn't sound too artificial repeating itself.

Executive summary:

Make players think about others' life by valuing their own virtual life more with respawn timer as representing emotional and time investment into playing. Make players visualise the death of others by implementing more lifelike (or exagerrated) wounded and pain and dying effects of wounded or killed players, so they can feel they killed a person not some random avatar which could well be just an AI.

honestly none of your ideas would make me want to kill anyone less

even if the person spent 5 years gathering all their gear i would still kill them for it, even if i knew if i killed someone they could never play the game again or would have to wait a few days i would still kill them

sure i would value my life more, but i still wouldnt hesitate to kill another player

[Suicide Mouse 50]

SUGGESTION: SCREAMING AND PAIN FX. Make the act of killing somebody more "real". FX here. Use the Arma2 wounded (lying on ground squirming around in pain) animation for dying players. Even for ones dropped by CZ round from afar. Not just drop down dead. Use scream sound FX. You wound somebody' date=' they squirm around screaming their lungs off from pain. Drop lotsa blood. Especially the sound would help - make several screams so it doesn't sound too artificial repeating itself.

[/quote']

I really like this. Though I can really say if it would make things better or worse, because for my part I'd actually enjoy it a little. hah

And yeah, I'd REALLY REALLY like to see the guys that kills everyone for no reason talking about, posting some stuff. Why they are never around when the times of chat comes? They are key parts of this.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

I really like this. Though I can really say if it would make things better or worse' date=' because for my part I'd actually enjoy it a little. hah

And yeah, I'd REALLY REALLY like to see the guys that kills everyone for no reason talking about, posting some stuff. Why they are never around when the times of chat comes? They are key parts of this.

[/quote']

what would u like to know?

[terrvik 2409]

I really like this. Though I can really say if it would make things better or worse' date=' because for my part I'd actually enjoy it a little. hah

And yeah, I'd REALLY REALLY like to see the guys that kills everyone for no reason talking about, posting some stuff. Why they are never around when the times of chat comes? They are key parts of this.

[/quote']

what would u like to know?

What would make you consider NOT doing it. Would there be any, in loss of better words, game mechanic that would make you value another players life more? :)

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

What would make you consider NOT doing it. Would there be any' date=' in loss of better words, game mechanic that would make you value another players life more? :)

[/quote']

usually if i am significantly out numbered and i lack explosives i wont kill people

as for game mechanics, i guess if killing another person got me killed i would stop

[Suicide Mouse 50]

I really like this. Though I can really say if it would make things better or worse' date=' because for my part I'd actually enjoy it a little. hah

And yeah, I'd REALLY REALLY like to see the guys that kills everyone for no reason talking about, posting some stuff. Why they are never around when the times of chat comes? They are key parts of this.

[/quote']

what would u like to know?

What would make you consider NOT doing it. Would there be any, in loss of better words, game mechanic that would make you value another players life more? :)

Pretty much this. What scenario can you see yourself killing less?

See, it's not a problem that you kill, and you probably would do it anyway in any circunstance, but most of the people only do it to go with the flow, so they don't become easy preys. So it could help knowing what you could consider the line for "Nah, it's just not worth it. I won't kill this dude".

[Rakkasan 23]

Easy fix. You cannot determine another persons morality or how they are going to play. There simply is no wrong or right in life, only what society tells you what is wrong or right. I like not knowing who is going to put a bullet in my head when my back is turned, I do not like knowing when. I do not like knowing what is going on in the whole world of Dayz server I am on...hopefully global chat will be removed.

Ok now to the point, if you kill someone, in real life what ever is on them or in their possession you can take. In game life, a person carrying an engine block with four tires, M4 carbine, and other items is not to realistic. But that is not the point...

Simply add a feature on what items one can take off a person...that is, like Everquest implemented after PK'ing went rampant, was bags are not lootable. I know that is not real, but lets face it, it is a game. And the decision to shoot someone now can rest on what the person is carrying on the body rather than what is in their bag. In this scenario both parties can win, or lose. Shoot somoene for their weapon but they have no ammo on their body, oh well. If the person is smart maybe has a spare in his backpack which he can go back and get. The killer gets a new weapon, some food, compass, who know, or maybe gets nothing because the player just spawned in 5 minutes ago. Either way it is the choice he/she is available to make on their own and their own need. I personally do not even look twice at a person near the shore with a Makarov, what is the point, can of beans and some spare ammo. Not worth my time or life.That is my two cents and wall of text.

[tso 5]

snip

Loved it. I actually agree with you' date=' I can't dig up the post by my intention was the have consequence to your actions but not penalty.

[/quote']

Slow infection.

Couple movies and games describe the infection as a form of rage over taking the mind.

I wonder if a bandit could lose him self to killing people as freely as they do.

To the point of becoming a zombie.

Going around stun punching people...

People are 'carriers' I bet if not infected them selves.

[Zombie Squirrel 5]

even if i knew if i killed someone they could never play the game again or would have to wait a few days i would still kill them

sure i would value my life more' date=' but i still wouldnt hesitate to kill another player

[/quote']

Well you never know until you try (perhaps you do, but... :)). Perma-death in videogames is pretty powerful mechanic. Taking it a bit further than "respawn instantly" could make it even more powerful. Obviously, it could be a double-edged sword.

[terrvik 2409]

I never want a player penalized for killing. A karma system or something like that is a huge no for me. My guess is that it's finding the right amount of risk. If you knew you took a risk when firing your gun maybe you would think three times before doing it. If zombie behaviour was altered to attract them to all sounds you know that if you pull the trigger every living infected in the area will get closer to you. Combine that with the fact that Z-people investigate bodies and a murder for loot will involve a huge amount of risk. Not much time to grab the gear of a victim when the infected are closing in all around you. :)

Sadly, the value of human life is probably borderline impossible to simulate... but maybe if there is SOME WAY to make the game "learn" your playing style? If there is a way to measure how "good" or "bad" you are? If you play as a "good guy" for several hours and then go on a murder rampage it would affect your character, because you have earned a lot of good points prior. I really don't know if this is an idea worth discussing further, but this thread IS an discussion (a good one at that) so i'm just throwing it out anyway. :)

Go on.

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

in reality 99.99% would not survive in zombie apocalypse. Most that survive would be children/teenagers, the older you get the harder it is for your brain to cope with different reality - suicides - suicides - suicides. survivors will turn into savages/animals and cannibalism will quickly become a means of survival once the beans are harder to come by. The hollywood scenario where people "team up" would be a joke, try to sleep next to someone who will gladly eat you or much much worse, morals are your biggest weakness now:"eat or get eaten". Being alone for a human would also result in becoming crazy or animal like, that's why solitary confinement is the hardest punishment in prisons and even the toughest men cant handle it, it leads to all types of mental disorders. Try not sleeping 5-10 days or staying completely alone for 30+

So yea, in reality zombie apocalypse is nothing like hollywood made you believe(like all the other things).

Humans cant survive it, and few that would...... dont wanna imagine.

[Booya 1]

you say this isn't about punishing playerkillers, then go on to list a series of negative consequences imposed by the game on you, or "punishments" if you will, that literally include screaming and vomiting uncontrollably. this is absolutely about punishing playerkillers, and it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

If there is a way to measure how "good" or "bad" you are? If you play as a "good guy" for several hours and then go on a murder rampage it would affect your character' date=' because you have earned a lot of good points prior. I really don't know if this is an idea worth discussing further, but this thread IS an discussion (a good one at that) so i'm just throwing it out anyway. :)

[/quote']

Sure it's worth it. Sudden changes is a nice way of seeing this too. Make it learn from your actions and trace you some sort of profile.

So yea' date=' in reality zombie apocalypse is nothing like hollywood made you believe(like all the other things).

Humans cant survive it, and few that would...... dont wanna imagine.

[/quote']

This was relatively recent, so humanity and human costumes would still be around. And I actually think the movies highly exaggerate on the destruction because of zombies. We would be able to take them down.

you say this isn't about punishing playerkillers' date=' then go on to list a series of negative consequences, or "punishments" if you will, that literally include screaming and vomiting uncontrollably. this is absolutely about punishing playerkillers, and its ridiculous to say otherwise.

[/quote']

Nah, it isn't, mate. I said it was examples, superficial ones, and that I hoped that the other boardies would take it to next level, digging deeper.

I am a player killer, I'm no carebear. I just want that my actions have reactions. I don't want to kill someone and then...well, that's it, nothing else happens. What's the thrill in that?

[Booya 1]

you say this isn't about punishing playerkillers' date=' then go on to list a series of negative consequences, or "punishments" if you will, that literally include screaming and vomiting uncontrollably. this is absolutely about punishing playerkillers, and its ridiculous to say otherwise.

[/quote']

Nah, it isn't, mate. I said it was examples, superficial ones, and that I hoped that the other boardies would take it to next level, digging deeper.

I am a player killer, I'm no carebear. I just want that my actions have reactions. I don't want to kill someone and then...well, that's it, nothing else happens. What's the thrill in that?

I think most people would argue that the fun part is the killing and looting part, putting yourself against another player and outplaying them, not the artificially imposed vomiting and screaming uncontrollably part, although I would be interested in hearing how exactly screaming and vomiting are "thrilling" to you. Trying to simulate the human psyche in a videogame IS going to be artificial, clunky, and ridiculous, even if we had access to an actual psychiatrist who actually knows the effects of murder on the psyche of the murderer. It's overambitious.

If survivors want consequences for bandits, form a bandit hunting group. Use the advantages of your playstyle, which, by reading the forums, most of you seem to have totally overlooked, to combat the bandit playstyle. CREATE organic social consequences, don't bitch and ask for artificial and gamey consequences.