The Moral Effect Theory v2.0

[Suicide Mouse 50]

Updated. The previous image was obsolete.

This are suggestions about how to implement a mechanic of cause and effect, defining your settings by your own actions.

They are just rough suggestions to pitch the idea, I'm not a professional developer yet to go in deep about any of this. So please, keep that in mind.

Now, let me play pshychic and answer some future replies:

"Noooo! There can't be any advantages based on your choice!!! That's so unfair!!! It's too artificial and arbitrary!"

It's not unfair, it's balanced, everything has a bad and a good side.

The choice is still all yours, really, you'll be able to fully choose, only will need to deal with that brings. It's not artificial, people that do something becomes good at that, so obviously someone that has experience in managing groups of survivor would be good with that and someone with experience on looting dead bodies of victims would be good with that.

"You're just a carebear that wants to punish bandeets!"

I'm not. I probably enjoy killing much more than you do, I'm just not an egocentric dickhead that thinks that I should be able to do what I want with no consequence, even if it is good.

"Some people got more advantages than others, how dare you?!"

Examples and sketchy ideas and concepts, nothing more than that. Only an idiot would think that all written is supposed to reflect 100% of my thoughts about changes.

"Hey, Suicide, there shouldn't be artifical effects on the gameplay like that, bro"

Everything in the game is an artificial effect, try to understand that.

I would like a way that your actions would only be reflected in the ambient as well, but I don't see any way to do that.

"Everything is fine as it is, none of your suggestions are important, the game doesn't need changes"

Get the fuck off. This is an alpha, there are going to be a lot of changes, stop being blind and idolizer.

"Fuck all this, this game should be about killing everyone you see, dewd!"

No, it shouldn't.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of you guys have posted a bunch of great ideas, criticism and suggestions and really went one level beyond. I thank you all.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

How about.... no.

Your theory is entirely based on the idea that you are exposing hard facts and not your personal opinion. And personally, i disagree with those facts and claim they are only an opinion.

Well argumented, yes. But i don't think that the social conditioning is that strong. Keep in mind that we talk about a complete social breakdown, there is no "going back home" and being subjected to the social construct again.

It's gone forever, when you spent a year in a ruined house, kept awake by the relentless moaning of the undead, cold, starving, you would be able to do things you would have never imagined before.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

Your argument could be true, but I mentioned how this works in wars, a very similar scenario of absolute chaos and trauma all around, and shellshock is here to prove that the ambient will drive you to do things but it won't make you immune to the side-effects. Yes, the zombiepocalypse will make the people do unimaginable stuff, but it doesn't mean they'll lose their complete humanity because of it. It is deeply entrenched in our genes and we can't get rid of it in such little time (the fact that there's still canned food and clothing shows how recent it was).

Brains aren't trauma-proof, no matter how sick the enviroment is.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

I forgot to state for sure that I'm not crying about bandits and think they should be punished.

I myself would rather play as a bandit if there were weight to my actions than as it is right now.

[Gnyf 0]

I like your thesis, though I fear it might go to the extreme.

I wouldn't mind having it tested in the game. I don't play like a bandit, and had to kill my first person yesterday, it was a shocking experience for me, even though its just a game. But I've been working on my current character for six days, and have begun to get attached.

[cat (DayZ) 22]

Stop blaming COD for everything.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

Stop blaming COD for everything.

I don't blame CoD, I just make fun of the players.

Not all of them, just the regular spray hos that never learned how to aim on a FPS and want bullets and explosions everywhere.

[UbiquitousBadGuy 846]

I forgot to state for sure that I'm not crying about bandits and think they should be punished.

I myself would rather play as a bandit if there were weight to my actions than as it is right now.

Kind of sad when we feel the need to preface our potentially controversial thoughts with that line; as if the strength or execution of our argument couldn't hold up by itself.

Anyway, while I love the idea, or at least, the attempted abstraction as something as complex and intricate as player psyche, I think we need to leave that to the player. We have abstractions for food, water, and blood because those are tangible, physical properties of our player and are needed to represent the player in the virtual environmental. Abstraction of the psyche seems to take away and diminished the player's own psychological response, one he or she brings to the game and doesn't exist in some arbitrary (no matter how complex) meter on the HUD.

While I think there are some good ideas present in this, invalidating the player's true response because it's not accurately represented in a game by a statistic, removes a lot about the emergent game-play we have and can expect from this game.

Other systems need to be introduced or refined in simulation to present alternative methods for the kill-on-sight mentality. Then the choice belongs to the player based on preferred playstyle and not because they feel forced into it. (A forced play-style in this context would be for example that "no one in the game can be trusted, so I shoot on sight", rather than the need to kill out of desperation for supplies, etc.)

[Suicide Mouse 50]

I forgot to state for sure that I'm not crying about bandits and think they should be punished.

I myself would rather play as a bandit if there were weight to my actions than as it is right now.

Kind of sad when we feel the need to preface our potentially controversial thoughts with that line; as if the strength or execution of our argument couldn't hold up by itself.

Indeed it is' date=' but I don't thrust the interpretation capacity of some. Just want to make sure they understand that I'm not trying to limit the game, but add to it and expand it.

Anyway, while I love the idea, or at least, the attempted abstraction as something as complex and intricate as player psyche, I think we need to leave that to the player. We have abstractions for food, water, and blood because those are tangible, physical properties of our player and are needed to represent the player in the virtual environmental. Abstraction of the psyche seems to take away and diminished the player's own psychological response, one he or she brings to the game and doesn't exist in some arbitrary (no matter how complex) meter on the HUD.

While I think there are some good ideas present in this, invalidating the player's true response because it's not accurately represented in a game by a statistic, removes a lot about the emergent game-play we have and can expect from this game.

Absolutely. This is just the very rough form of the idea, just like this is a very rough form on an alpha game. There's much to consider and refine.

My main problem is with that "player's own psychological response".

I love how Gynf mentioned on his post that he killed someone and it had weight on him. He was already immersed to that point, and to me this is the ideal player for this kind of game. But sadly we live in a world filled with imature players, who judge themselves 'trolls' and think -while in the security of their own rooms- that they are badasses calculist killers. They have no limitation because the simulated life won't have value to him.

I myself suffer from borderline personality disorder with psychotic behavior and am under treatment for a long time. Being damaged in the head isn't as fun as some people seem to think, and I believe they don't know what is the feeling of considering taking people's lives and the extreme emotional response this brings.

We aren't evolved enough to give virtual avatars an inherent moral value, so the only way I can think to simulate is creating some small limitations to the player's own response.

[Publik 404]

Dunno, I've seen the suggestion before and it's kinda appealing, though if implemented I'd rather see it for anyone, just not bandits. On the other hand, I'd also rather it be left up to the player and have the player know that what they're doing is dangerous and risky and wrong. I get some mad adrenaline when I start getting shot at.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

Dunno' date=' I've seen the suggestion before and it's kinda appealing, though if implemented I'd rather see it for anyone, just not bandits. On the other hand, I'd also rather it be left up to the player and have the player know that what they're doing is dangerous and risky and wrong. I get some mad adrenaline when I start getting shot at.

[/quote']

Yes, I even mentioned some examples from MGS4. It can work for everyone and it can be greatly expanded. I believe it doesn't cost so much on the game's resources.

One of the great things about post-apocalyptic scenarios is how they affect the psychology of mankind, at least in my opinion.

Those of you who likes The Walking Dead (the comics, not the TV show) and movies/books like The Road, can probably understand my position on this a little better. I love seeing how a father will kill and torture anyone to protect his son, but it doesn't come for free and he knows it will cost him, but he doesn't care because his child safety is the only thing that matters. It's self-damaging, but necessary.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

Woah, that sinked fast. So many repeated threads about the same suggestions.

Anyway, the think you said about how this shouldn't be bandit exclusive, that's the good thing of moral, there's no bandits and good guys, everyone has their own demons and they deal with the repercussions in their own way. It's just a much deeper way to see things. Everyone may need to kill sometime, that's how the world is now.

This effects only affect the player, unlike skins that affects everyone around, and they would need to think "is it worth taking this guy's life?".

It's a more complex humanity system where everyone has the same potential to be called a bandit or a survivor.

[SRTie4k 1]

I love how everyone here either

1. Thinks they have a degree in sociology/psychology or

2. Are ruthless killers at heart, whos urges are only constrained by society

It is a fact that nobody here knows how they would react if put in a situation where they might have to take the life of somebody else, or may have their own lives taken. I'm sure that no more than 1% of DayZ players have ever had a gun pointed at them, or have ever pointed a gun at another human being. Thus what they do in-game is entirely vicarious - they try to fulfill that sensation in a controlled environment where there is no penalty.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

I love how everyone here either

1. Thinks they have a degree in sociology/psychology or

2. Are ruthless killers at heart' date=' whos urges are only constrained by society

It is a fact that nobody here knows how they would react if put in a situation where they might have to take the life of somebody else, or may have their own lives taken. I'm sure that no more than 1% of DayZ players have ever had a gun pointed at them, or have ever pointed a gun at another human being. Thus what they do in-game is entirely vicarious - they try to fulfill that sensation in a controlled environment where there is no penalty.

[/quote']

Exactly, that's why the idea of "Let's leave the player's moral decide" can't work. They won't have the same morals in the game, there's nothing to hold them. In there they can be like Dexter, Hannibal and their favorite lil' killers from TV.

There needs to be something in-game that may have weight on them, so they'll have to decide. It's not restriction, is simulation, just like the rest of the game.

[Nick Darnoc 1]

What if when spawning in you could choose a Psyche that most fits you, or how you want to play and each comes with it's penalties and benefits.

A psychotic character could kill easily, but constantly need medicine

A humane character doesn't need the medicine but has difficulty killing (whether it's self defense or not)

I don't think this would be unrealistic because it merely gives the player a choice on whether or not they want to kill, or if they'd rather be normal.

There could be in between psych profiles as well for more personal choices perhaps.

[MartinAtome 0]

a player may betray you after 20 mins of game, cuz you found a better rifle, and that kind of thing can happen really often, maybe over 50% of the times you ally a stranger..

but if you played side by side for 3-4 hours that changes, it's really difficult ad that point to cold-blood shoot a teammate. also it changes with real-life friends. (like in a real scenario, i would ally with my hold, well known friends, not with random strangers).

DayZ is already all about psicology, no need for in game features

[ComboBreaker 9]

Thats what I've been always thinking.

Do not punish bandits...But rather make players think "Will it be worth it if I kill this guy?He does not have decent gear so I'll let him pass or rather scare away.Killing him is not worth it."

"This guy has an auto riffle and he does not see me,but Im low on sanity...Is his riffle worth getting?I guess I'll take my chances."

Killing must be a decision a player should not take light hearted.I dont care what kind of penalties there will be,they should not be permament but last long enough to make you think twice before pulling the trigger.

Again,its not about punishing,its more about making Killing(yeah,starts with "K") feel a special,well thought decision.Or a mistake you will heartly regret.

A single kill now and then for loot or self defence should not be punished(or punished very slightly)...Brainlessly killing everyone on sight "just because" MUST be punished though.

Sanity instead of Humanity?Why not.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

a player may betray you after 20 mins of game' date=' cuz you found a better rifle, and that kind of thing can happen really often, maybe over 50% of the times you ally a stranger..

but if you played side by side for 3-4 hours that changes, it's really difficult ad that point to cold-blood shoot a teammate. also it changes with real-life friends. (like in a real scenario, i would ally with my hold, well known friends, not with random strangers).

DayZ is already all about psicology, no need for in game features

[/quote']

The probabilities of playing side by side for hours with a stranger are going to decrease, a lot. I guarantee you that without humanity skins people will shoot on sight. This means you'll only be able to play with friends, and to me that sucks because it's like any other boring MMO out there.

There is no loss on shooting someone, there's just no loss at all.

[TeaLeaf 5]

A hell of a lot of words for something that has been suggested like 5000 times already and has been shot down every time.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

A hell of a lot of words for something that has been suggested like 5000 times already and has been shot down every time.

Are you sure, friend? I searched for several terms in several contexts before creating this and all I've seen was the regular "punish them bandits!" or "leave bandits alone!" discussion.

I'm sure that if you read the hell of a lot of words you'll see that this is nothing about that.

Thanks for the post, though. :3

[Alto (DayZ) 1]

"actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea"

Trans: "The act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhfKlw32KB0

Everything is better with music.

[fix_ 14]

I would agree with some points of this. You can just look on average lifetime:

2 weeks ago: 4h 30min

Now: 30 min

Ppl brainlessly get into the game shooting everything that move and if they die? Just click respawn and go on. I think there should be some kind of punishment on death and on killing as well. In other case I wouldn't like to see myself freaking out from killing someone while I was just defending myself.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Your argument could be true' date=' but I mentioned how this works in wars, a very similar scenario of absolute chaos and trauma all around, and shellshock is here to prove that the ambient will drive you to do things but it won't make you immune to the side-effects. Yes, the zombiepocalypse will make the people do unimaginable stuff, but it doesn't mean they'll lose their complete humanity because of it. It is deeply entrenched in our genes and we can't get rid of it in such little time (the fact that there's still canned food and clothing shows how recent it was).

Brains aren't trauma-proof, no matter how sick the enviroment is.

[/quote']

I'll also apologise if i sounded needlessly rude in my answer, my intention wasn't to bash your argumentation... it was pretty late.

[TeaLeaf 5]

A hell of a lot of words for something that has been suggested like 5000 times already and has been shot down every time.

Are you sure' date=' friend? I searched for several terms in several contexts before creating this and all I've seen was the regular "punish them bandits!" or "leave bandits alone!" discussion.

I'm sure that if you read the hell of a lot of words you'll see that this is nothing about that.

Thanks for the post, though. :3

[/quote']

http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6048

http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4270

http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4210

Not including all the times it's brought up when someone starts a discussion on bandits. I don't want to come of as an ass, but it's like game design golden rule #4 "Don't tell the player how he feels. He will generally disagree.".

[The Killing Joke 43]

I went ice skating once, and there was a very young kid skating around, who initiated an impromptu game of tag. This went on for an hour or so, and then, when it got dark, he said, "I gotta go"... ...and then hauled off and kicked me in the shin... ...wearing his skate.

I was hurt, and pretty upset. Today, I still have the scar... ...and a great story to tell!

So, I think we all need to take a more holistic view of those who kill us in-game. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and you should come away with more stories than scars.