How to end Ganking, and support Honor [ v ]

[Arainasc 19]

Amongst the plethora of youtube commentators, Twitch.TV Streamers, and gamers alike there seems to be a shared consensus when it comes to the current state of affairs taking place in DAYZ.

People are frustrated

And who is to blame them honestly... Can any of you really call someone out on being a bad player, when they are unarmed, and being gunned down by someone with an AK-74? Or running through town at night, searching for a source of water, while a sniper with nightvision takes them out from a distance? I certainly can't... and thats what it boils down to people. Regardless of what the Dev's intended the game on being with its Dubbed "social experiment" status. There has been a distinct and dramatic increase in psychotic and antisocial behavior. And unfortunately, the vitcims in turn, have now come full cycle to continue the endless wartorn world that feeds on disregard for empathy.

Here's an example.

Player 2 tries to help Player 1 from being mauled by zombies, only to be shot and looted for valuables. Now disgruntled, player 2 instinctively shoots player 3, who was unarmed and only in search for a water source. Player 3, Who in turn will never trust anyone ever again and begins his own cycle of distrust...etc etc etc.

Do you see where I'm going with this ? There is NO emphasis on kindness, giving, or honor, and the only reward is given to those who shoot first, and ask questions later.

Thats why I'm here, I'm here to suggest a new system which will help reward those who go the extra mile, and encourage players to really struggle through the choice of helping, vs having that extra can of food. And its a fairly simple procedure, given the dev's capable coding skills.

Now, the first step is to bring back humanity, which I know some of you really hated, but just hang with me as I try to explain this as carefully as I can.

What if, humanity was brought back, not as just a gauge of player morality, but as a emphesis on a reward system.... A System in which, a player could have the incentive to not only help the other player, but to ensure that both of them have a well deserved reward at the end. Now how would you do this ? Well heres a short summary of how it could work.

1. Seting up various salvation army stations with millitary NPC's who will reward players who return with humanity and the dogtags (discussed below). And in return with the collected tags and humanity, the salvation captain would then know that these survivors were honorable, and offer them Weapons, body armor, vechile parts, gasmasks, even a Combination safe to have a permenant stash somewhere in the game. All costing X ammount of Humanity / X tag's per purchase. - Example. Body armor. 4000 humanity, 12 dogtags -.

So while the bandits are pillaging, and shooting everyone they can, the team of players who sticks together can effectively attain their own rewards for their hard work and loytalty. Essentially creating Balance.

2. As stated above, we're now be discussing the new form of currency, in the form of dogtags. Each player has a set of dogtags, these are needed to attain rewards from the salvation captain and are only available AS GIFTS. And like humanity, the dogtag symbol will be retained in the UI, and not in the players bag itself. Effectively preventing bandits from bypassing this and just robbing players of their work. As this special form of currency, and to prevent others from farming, the set you have would only be givable once every 24 hours. Basically limiting you to 2 gifts a day. This is another balance issue, and to prevent players from exploiting easy gear.

3.Implementing a penalty / reward system for those who would rather help one another, than to shoot anyone they come across. Going at a 1-10 ratio of Humanity depending on what you do.

Say, for example. You willingly offer player items from your backpack, giving you a 10% humanity boost to zombie / bandit kills for the next hour. Or a passive incease in Humanity earned while within a certain distance of other players who are also not labled as bandits.

The 1-10 ratio comes in the form of assitance and killing. 100 humanity for bandaging or helping them with a blood pack. And -1000 humanity for killing another survivor. Which I know is rough, especially if you are defending yourself. I never said it was perfect, but if you are following the steps above so far, regaining 1000 humanity is not has hard as say, a Bandit killing 15 people, then trying to make up for his actions.

Now if you are still reading all this, and simply think I am a carebear or a noob who wants to deny your kills, thats fine. I understand that some people out there are killing, just to kill. And they are entitled to play the game however they want to. But for me, and alot of other players out there, they want the game to be a real survival horror experience, not just a shoot first, ask questions later... No morality, gankfest. Because lets be honest, even if you are the type who only want to kill, everytime you kill that unarmed player, you could be driving away players, who day by day, will eventually leave the game more barren...And I for one, am against that, because I know the potential this type of game has.

This is a "anti game" and has no rules, but without the insentive for honor, without the consequences for taking a life, there is no reason why anyone is going to hold back... when there is nothing to lose. And the less humanity we have, the more of a game this actually becomes. So if you really do support the "anti game" claim, show your support below for some incentive for justice and kindness.

Hope to hear from you, even if its rage,

~Araina

[Foogals (DayZ) 61]

Many thanks! Good ideas, need a bit of rethinking so as to fit the immersion better. But I like it because I have very serious doubts that in a Real-Life apocalypse 9/10 people would shoot first... it'd be more like 7/10. Darned internet anonymity brings out the evil psychopath in most of us.

[ODoyleRulez 195]

I commend your attempt to bring back some reason not to KOS. It just doesn't fit the game. I don't even think the structure to build the features onto, even exists in the game engine.

[Riis 22]

I read alot of bla bla bla about honor and what I believe this post boils down to is this:

I WANT THE GAME TO TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!!!!

And this is not the vision of the game, the vision is to let people play this game how they want. So that means if you want to trade, then go ahead and trade! you don't need currency, If you have problems with bandits, then gather a posse and go after them!

[Ultenth 12]

*snip*

Interesting, while I support your goal of encouraging group play and honorable actions, I'm VERY opposed to using any "gamey" solutions. Unfortunately unlike in real life where your own physical body is at risk, creating a real social contract between players to treat each other as they wish to be treated is very hard to do. Even in real life many people don't act that way anyway! I'm not sure what the solution is at this point, but it's not something as MMO game-like as this, sorry, there has to be a better way, like things you can only get/do with other players, like building a base, or farming, or making food not spammable to eat so you are forced to have someone transfuse you or stay low blood all the time. Something. Just. Not. This.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Ultenth

[ODoyleRulez 195]

Interesting, while I support your goal of encouraging group play and honorable actions, I'm VERY opposed to using any "gamey" solutions. Unfortunately unlike in real life where your own physical body is at risk, creating a real social contract between players to treat each other as they wish to be treated is very hard to do. Even in real life many people don't act that way anyway! I'm not sure what the solution is at this point, but it's not something as MMO game-like as this, sorry, there has to be a better way, like things you can only get/do with other players, like building a base, or farming, or making food not spammable to eat so you are forced to have someone transfuse you or stay low blood all the time. Something. Just. Not. This.

I was thinking the same thing. When we get the future (hopefully) options to build settlements or clear areas of Zs, etc. Do more meta game within the simulation, then more dynamics will arise. I've already started to see groups form and set up areas within the servers I play, that somewhat resemble a basic form of that (safe zones, basic gear stockpiles for people in need, etc). Groups have sprung up to rescue new players or hunt bandits. I think there does need to be a better visual way to tell if someone is a bandit though. right now it is too easy to just KOS to protect yourself than risk having someone do it first..As it stands the only real way is by knowing the regulars of a server and going by reputation.

[nineSTRIKE 9]

Arainasc

Posts like this FRUSTRATE me!

DayZ is the game you play. Its the anti game. Its not here to reward a player for helping someone, the player you helped rewards you. Its a zombie surival game!? Not Call of Battlefield 4: Love and rainbows.

If people can't accept the fact that someone would kill for a can of beans then gtfo.

This is how its meant to be played.

[Doctor_sloth 119]

Strangely enough, this is a well thought out and worded post. Congrats on that!

As far as your post goes, I think it's a pretty neat idea, but I seriously don't see it happening. The devs are still trying to hammer out things like zombies walking thru walls and as someone else has already said, "It's too game-ey". I think that the only solution to the "problem" on shoot on sight is time. Given enough time, people will be better established and have more long term goals than "LOL look at that n00b i jus merc im so l33t" But honestly, I dont think it's a problem. Most players just avoid each other now, rather than potentially lose their cool junk. It's what I, and other players in my experience, do regularly.

TL;DR- A decent idea but ultimatley flawed because of the nature of the mod.

And yes, I did use the word "neat" and no I'm not 80.

[paradox. 12]

Another idea to help players work together would be bandit bounty boards and you get rewarded somehow(i don't really know if anyone likes this you are welcome to take and expand).

[Heineken (DayZ) 15]

I am growing tired of people trying to end the plague that are bandits. In a post-apocalyptic world there will be no rules. There will be no punishments for doing what you want. Most importantly there will be no salvation army tents that just happen to give you items for an imaginary currency and dog tags. However, I don't think in reality there will be as many people shooting on sight. People simply don't have the guts to do so. Sadly, you can not imitate reality within a video game no matter how immersive it is. Because no matter what, that is all it is, a video game. It does not affect your outside life. (Unless you let it.) Your life is not actually in danger at anytime. You wont feel guilty for shooting that unarmed male or female who was walking on the coast. So, I suggest you just stop focusing on how to make the game more un-realistic with punishments and rules and make it more realistic. Just my thoughts and opinions. Take them how you want! Happy Surviving! :beans:

[Ultenth 12]

I was thinking the same thing. When we get the future (hopefully) options to build settlements or clear areas of Zs, etc. Do more meta game within the simulation, then more dynamics will arise. I've already started to see groups form and set up areas within the servers I play, that somewhat resemble a basic form of that (safe zones, basic gear stockpiles for people in need, etc). Groups have sprung up to rescue new players or hunt bandits. I think there does need to be a better visual way to tell if someone is a bandit though. right now it is too easy to just KOS to protect yourself than risk having someone do it first..As it stands the only real way is by knowing the regulars of a server and going by reputation.

I disagree that we need to be able to spot them. It should be as you said by reputation. And not even by name, what bandit will go around telling people his name? It should be "Hey, avoid Stary Sober, if you see a guy in a Ghili suit there he is probably xL33txkillerx and will gank you." Again, just like in real life, a person who robs people in this scenario wouldn't walk around wearing a black mask and carrying a skull and crossbones.

The idea of having to gauge how much you should trust someone is an INTEGRAL part of the gameplay experience. Is it really just a helpless noob who started playing today? Or is it a bandit that is going to use you to help him get free stuff, and as soon as he gets a decent weapon will kill you and take your stuff? The not knowing, the tension, the distrust, the EMOTIONS is very important. And when you find someone you CAN trust, it's an equally wonderful feeling the other way. Playing together with them for a few days in a row, going through trials and tribulations, then watching him bleed out from a bandit or zombie as you prepare to get your revenge, all these are the things that make DayZ worth playing, and cannot be removed.

Arainasc

Posts like this FRUSTRATE me!

DayZ is the game you play. Its the anti game. Its not here to reward a player for helping someone, the player you helped rewards you. Its a zombie surival game!? Not Call of Battlefield 4: Love and rainbows.

If people can't accept the fact that someone would kill for a can of beans then gtfo.

This is how its meant to be played.

His whole point is that yes, some people would kill for a can of beans. Hell some people IRL would do that in the right circumstances. But, the ratio of people who choose that route is too high, simply because there is no reward or punishment to deter that. The rewards and punishments should largely come from the players, but there is no reason the game cannot help them by providing the tools to entice them down those paths. Just like in real life, there should be benefits to working with a group and doing the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" thing. Currently as-is, the game does not accurately simulate those aspects, and more than anything that should be what the focus of suggestions should be.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Ultenth

[mrducky (DayZ) 33]

The real issue with the game - as to why there is no realistic, possibly friendly, interaction upon meeting someone - just shooting on sight... Has to do with the core of it... Its a game, with anonymous pixelated player models running around. Rather than real people.

TL;DR: I'm just blabbering and pondering here about the basic nature of the game in relation to real life. Feel free to read and ponder yourself or to just skip the entire following crap. :P

You don't know the player behind that character. You have no psychological touching surface to him... Any other than perhaps the assumption that he must be one of those guys who would shoot on sight for the laughs - Just like the X number of people met in the game have done so far. The only feeling you might have towards the guy is probably some sort of hate at this point.

In a way its a somewhat realistic depiction of the human mind at times of tension/war... If some of your friends (or you yourself in this game!) get killed by the people of the, say, ethnic group A. Then your ideas of that entire group will be based on those experiences. You hate them, you think they all deserve death, etc. Even if it had been the deeds of some few criminal individuals...

And before you know it, it all spirals out of control and a full blown war is raging. (Because the people on the other side are all evil!!!)

Remind you a bit of what's going on in the DayZ chernarus at the moment? ;)

There is only one difference that has happened somewhat lately... Most importantly, the removal of the bandit skin. Because that was, what set the people apart in the game previously. There were the 2 different groups. Survivors and Bandits.

Back then, if you were still playing as a survivor, and met another one in the survivor skinned player... Even though it was in no way a guarantee that the guy would not just shoot you, it was at least a little hint of it. And most importantly, it placed that guy in the same group as you. You would have some psychological association with that. Like: He's a survivor, just like you... Trying to scavenge for supplies, trying to stay hidden to survive the zeds and the bandits... You could relate to the other guy, even if you knew nothing of him, except for the survivor skin he's wearing. It wasn't much really, but at least it was something.

Now, that there are no 2 groups anymore. There is no-other random encountered players in the game to relate to. The only gut feeling you have to the other guy is that he's probably hostile and better kill him than to be killed. The only groups there are is you and then all the rest (this from the point of a lone survivor/bandit, for a clan/group of people, its obviously your group and all the rest).

The only way to combat this issue is either add artificial mechanics to push people in some direction (as the OP suggested), but I guess that isn't really in the intended nature of the game. Or to allow people to somehow get some kind of grip on the other person behind the other character, before they are faced with them at point blank range and have to quickly make the decision of pulling the trigger or not. There would be a much greater psychological process going on in peoples minds at that point.

Sorry, for going badly out of the initial subject.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

Honor isn't a trait of survival.

[aversionfx 63]

I don't want anything that essentially tells me how to play the game. Defeats the entire purpose of what DayZ is doing.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

So what about Bandits that go the extra mile? Who track down players over several kilometres, who set up honey-pot traps, who camp out for 20-30 minutes patiently waiting for the perfect shot? They get penalized?

Nope I'm against a honour system of any kind, it would put emphasis to only one side of the medal and that's not what this game is about. Also your suggestion reads like the game principle is frustrating for you, not for everyone.

[Capercaillie 16]

No.

[Arainasc 19]

So what about Bandits that go the extra mile? Who track down players over several kilometres, who set up honey-pot traps, who camp out for 20-30 minutes patiently waiting for the perfect shot? They get penalized?

Nope I'm against a honour system of any kind, it would put emphasis to only one side of the medal and that's not what this game is about. Also your suggestion reads like the game principle is frustrating for you, not for everyone.

Throwing a strawman argument out for the sake of defending the actions of bandits is not refuting my suggested position.

Its incentive to try and bring community together. But you would obviously rather have the game be ...

DAYZ DEATHMATCH

with some zombies.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Arainasc

[zipper 69]

There is NO emphasis on kindness, giving, or honor, and the only reward is given to those who shoot first, and ask questions later.

This is so far from the truth. There are dozens of benefits to teamming up with people. There was a post that I believe Zed made that had an excellent starting list on the benefits of teamplay. The game does not need to change to your play style. You need to adapt how you usually play towards the game. This is the reason why people die all the time. They expect that people are going to be the friendliest people in the world. This is not the case, and even if it was, running up towards someone who has a loaded weapon is never a good idea. But people do it on a regular basis, yelling friendly over and over, and then they get upset when they get a bullet in the head. Then they come post on the forums about how surprised they were that they got shot. It blows my mind that people think like this.

It is a survival mod. If you die, it isn't the persons fault that killed you. You failed at surviving. Change how you try to survive and you will find yourself much better off.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Zipper -82ndAB-

[aversionfx 63]

Throwing a strawman argument out for the sake of defending the actions of bandits is not refuting my suggested position.

Its incentive to try and bring comunity together. But you would obviously rather have the game be ...

DAYZ DEATHMATCH

with some zombies.

This line of thinking is simply, and frankly, stupid. The game doesn't need any gamey efforts to "bring the community together." People need to understand that "bandits" are just as much a part of the game as grouping up with other survivors. The people who want to buff one and nerf the other have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. You want to punish people whose idea of survival means preemptively killing potential threats.

FAIL.

[Arainasc 19]

This line of thinking is simply, and frankly, stupid. The game doesn't need any gamey efforts to "bring the community together." People need to understand that "bandits" are just as much a part of the game as grouping up with other survivors. The people who want to buff one and nerf the other have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. You want to punish people whose idea of survival means preemptively killing potential threats.

FAIL.

You obviously didn't understand the concept of my post, but luckily one member did. Let me point his post out for you.

His whole point is that yes, some people would kill for a can of beans. Hell some people IRL would do that in the right circumstances. But, the ratio of people who choose that route is too high, simply because there is no reward or punishment to deter that. The rewards and punishments should largely come from the players, but there is no reason the game cannot help them by providing the tools to entice them down those paths. Just like in real life, there should be benefits to working with a group and doing the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" thing. Currently as-is, the game does not accurately simulate those aspects, and more than anything that should be what the focus of suggestions should be.

Its not about buffs or nerfs, and its not about getting rid of bandits. You are so busy being offended that you want to think everyone is out to get rid of you, when in reality my post was about getting the game to not be oriented around "well i'm going to kill him, because he has more than me. And if I die, I obviously have nothing to lose."

Now, if that went over your head. Plese, feel free to write another archaic FAIL along with your post as to better facilitate to everyone, that its not your fault you are a Manchild.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Arainasc

[Dev (DayZ) 113]

I do think its a cool suggestion, but only wanting rewards for your side shows a lack of intelligence. Telling us that being a bandit is killing the game makes me think you are just an kid who feels he is entitled to something.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Dev

[zipper 69]

The game is oriented around survival. Not community, not friendliness. Survival. There are dozens of ways to go about doing this. The ratio of people being killed by bandits isn't anywhere close to the number of people being killed by zombies. I believe it was Vipeax that said nerfing banditry would be nerfing the minority.

Your post was labeled as fail because you are placing helping others above survival. You want a reward system in place for things that should not be your primary concern, and you are dying because survival is not number one on your list. This doesn't mean you have to shoot everything that moves, but the minute you endanger yourself, you are jeapordizing your survival. If you die as a result of that, it is your own fault. Your priorities are backwards. You should not get a reward for trying to help others and dying. You should be penalized because you failed at surviving. And you do get penalized for failing to survive, the game makes you start over. Inserting any sort of reward system will completely change the way the game is played. If you are having a difficult time surviving play with friends. If you don't have any that play the game, use the forums and find people to play with. There are hundreds of threads with people asking for teammates. Use the tools given to you to help you succeed. If you don't, you will find yourself on the beach, a lot.

[daizy 2]

I agree to the threadstarter. In fact there isn't really a reason to cooperate with each other. Sometimes I think the "other players" are more dangerous as the zombies.

The idea of a rewarding system is good and we can let it at least a try.

[enforcer1975 1111]

99% of all people talking they would kill everyone they see in a zombie apocalype would cower in a corner afraid of the dark. All tough talking thanks to anonymity the internet. Of course it is difficult to trust a complete stranger rather than someone in your street but everyone can be a valuable asset and since mankind was able to think, even earlier they always created groups in order to increase survivability. Lone wolves just die, this is not a hollywood movie where Rambo only need a machinegun and enough ammo to mow down thousands of VC in the jungle.

Most ppl don't act like this because they only thing it's a shooter.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Enforcer

[nexerius 0]

Arainasc

Posts like this FRUSTRATE me!

DayZ is the game you play. Its the anti game. Its not here to reward a player for helping someone, the player you helped rewards you. Its a zombie surival game!? Not Call of Battlefield 4: Love and rainbows.

If people can't accept the fact that someone would kill for a can of beans then gtfo.

This is how its meant to be played.

I bet youre one of the shitheads that sits in the hillside sniping unarmed people. I dont think it was meant that 95% of players were all supposed to be bandits. GTFO.