Put survival first

[Larens53 0]

Hello. I have been playing since the mod version and each of my sessions is about enjoying the atmosphere of the gameplay. I always imagine that if it were in life, how would people behave?

Why not bring more communication between unfamiliar players to survival? Make wildlife and zombies the main opponents, not players. Make the central and far part of the map more violent. To force players to communicate and unite, and not to kill with a stone knife for the sake of a plum.

[nemorus 162]

People kill each other even on harshests community servers. Unless rules bans killing, people will do it. Game started as a meat grinder and that tendency was never changed in vanilla. People were taught that its about ripping each other apart for adrenaline and items; It's a certain way of playing and i'd say very real. Without artificial rules people will devour themselves because no such rules means law of the jungle. History proved that already.

Other than that - yes, i would also like to see better PVE experience. Game needs to be polished and npcs need to be more deadly. For example: currently when people meet with wolves, they think "oh! dinner time!" because wolves are just that in "DayZ" - portable meat repository. Wolves almost always howl when they stalk their prey and their attacks are too weak.

[Parazight 1594]

1 hour ago, Larens53 said:

 I always imagine that if it were in life, how would people behave?

People wouldn't kill each other in a zombie apocalypse.  No way.  People kill each other in dayz because they can't do it in real life.   It's a sandbox with other people and ways to kill them.  And there's no real consequence for killing another player.  In fact, it's encouraged.  It's encouraged because the sole focus of the game is to loot things and players are the absolute best source for good loot.

Your only option is to find a community server with active administration.  good luck.

[blueshorts44 6]

2 hours ago, Larens53 said:

Hello. I have been playing since the mod version and each of my sessions is about enjoying the atmosphere of the gameplay. I always imagine that if it were in life, how would people behave?

Why not bring more communication between unfamiliar players to survival? Make wildlife and zombies the main opponents, not players. Make the central and far part of the map more violent. To force players to communicate and unite, and not to kill with a stone knife for the sake of a plum.

Infected are the most annoying thing in the game, making them so deadly that you need to team up with other players would be aids. Infected are important for the game but making bots the biggest threat isnt fun, nothing is more fun than a fight that makes your adrenaline go off and that only happens when fighting players.

[nemorus 162]

1 hour ago, blueshorts44 said:

(...) fight that makes your adrenaline go off and that only happens when fighting players.

That's not true. NPCs can also be programmed like that. I've seen it once on custom private server.

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

3 minutes ago, nemorus said:

That's not true. NPCs can also be programmed like that. I've seen it once on custom private server.

Npc behaviour can be quickly learnt. Human player behaviour is unpredictable. 

[nemorus 162]

31 minutes ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

(...) Human player behaviour is unpredictable. 

Of course you can prove it? I would like you to try with modern science. People always say that their nature of doing things is unpredictable and therefore simulation is not possible. Arrogance. And yet so many "impossible" things already happened in known history.

How many avatars died because their behavior was predicted? Since it can be predicted its not that difficult to recreate. Waiting game, circling around, rushing, stalking - all of that can be programmed. But there must be a connection to the world first.

Npcs lack of information gathering capabilities and overall knowledge about environment they're working with. They're just dumped there on a map. Learning will allow them to choose the 'right' pattern according to situation. Currently infected behave like moving turrets and nothing else - typical cheap scenario. Wolves are a bit different though. There is a shadow of teamwork there.

[blueshorts44 6]

2 hours ago, nemorus said:

That's not true. NPCs can also be programmed like that. I've seen it once on custom private server.

Ive been playing games for 15years i never had my hands shake over a NPC

[nemorus 162]

Maybe because there was no reason to. Not to mention that most npcs in video games nowdays are moronic so majority of players can handle them and bolster their ego in the process. In my case it was one of those ultra hardcore servers where finding stuff was ridiculously serious time investment. Was packed that day after a raid. In the middle of nowhere a pack of feral dogs came at me from two different directions. There was no shooting them because i knew that there were other armed players close by - melee was the only viable option. It took roughly 90% of life and well over 50% of blood to win that. Two whole bandages, two transfusions and one salt while being attacked. Last two doggies faked their escape only to backstab minute later. I was patching mine avatar from multiple lacerations and should died there when last dog missed while doing quick charge. Typical sink or swim situation.

[John Maynard 27]

9 hours ago, Larens53 said:

Hello. I have been playing since the mod version and each of my sessions is about enjoying the atmosphere of the gameplay. I always imagine that if it were in life, how would people behave?

Why not bring more communication between unfamiliar players to survival? Make wildlife and zombies the main opponents, not players. Make the central and far part of the map more violent. To force players to communicate and unite, and not to kill with a stone knife for the sake of a plum.

If you increase the spawn of wolves and bears, you will be forced to a level of survival never seen before. That is, the game gives freedom to create amazing community servers. Try to survive the wolves to find out.

Edited February 11, 2023 by John Maynard

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

14 hours ago, nemorus said:

Of course you can prove it? I would like you to try with modern science. People always say that their nature of doing things is unpredictable and therefore simulation is not possible. Arrogance. And yet so many "impossible" things already happened in known history.

How many avatars died because their behavior was predicted? Since it can be predicted its not that difficult to recreate. Waiting game, circling around, rushing, stalking - all of that can be programmed. But there must be a connection to the world first.

Npcs lack of information gathering capabilities and overall knowledge about environment they're working with. They're just dumped there on a map. Learning will allow them to choose the 'right' pattern according to situation. Currently infected behave like moving turrets and nothing else - typical cheap scenario. Wolves are a bit different though. There is a shadow of teamwork there.

What in gods name are you raving on about? 

[nemorus 162]

Oh i see. When you ask people for something its ok, but if someone ask you for details you say they are "raving" at ya? Ok i will ask you again... You say that

20 hours ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

Npc behaviour can be quickly learnt. Human player behaviour is unpredictable. 

Prove your statement. You say that "Human player behaviour is unpredictable". And yet people are dying in the game because their behaviour can be predicted by others. Prove its otherwise.

We're talking about improving PVE since that element could force people into some degree of teamwork and not just killing each other for loot. Its the 'common enemy unites' situation. Why infected can't cooperate? Why they can't properly utilize their surroundings? They're not zombies - lore is clear about that. Since there is intelligence there should also be more options for them. Right now they can't even bash open doors or climb on. Player can climb on top of a car or hesco box and kill hundreds of infected because these guys will just stay beneath and look angry.

[Riddick_2K 125]

Two points:
1)
You will NEVER change the human soul just by increasing environmental difficulties. It will change for some, but a good portion of players will continue to hunt humans, because that's the only thing that amuses them... and if they can't do it, they will switch games or servers. Those who have the "cooperation" mentality will use it even with "small environmental difficulties", those who don't have it, even with "great environmental difficulties" will always try to kill some players, because this is the only thing that "gratifies" them in a game like this. I see you understand little about the human soul...
And in any case, even increasing the environmental difficulties too much risks worsening the already "bad realism" of the game. I don't feel like, now, listing all the absurdities and unrealities of this game... things we all know... Do you want to increase the bullshit? Like the "packs of bears" like in some servers? Or further increase the bears' resistance to bullets, which already look like alien RoboCops? Or the Super-Wolves, maybe even with "vertical take-off" and laser beams.
Forget this... you'll ruin this unfortunate game even more, without solving the "problem" of the murderers, who are in the human soul, NOT in the environment. The environment changes little.
IMHO

2)
Artificial intelligences, at the moment, are ridiculous. In DayZ that's okay because they just have to simulate brain-wracked and motor-impaired humans. That's fine. But have you ever tried FPS warfare? Here, playing against the PC is simply ridiculous: zero (0) strategy, painful tactics, infallible aim. ABSOLUTELY NOT human.
You could probably already write a complex enough intelligence to be able to simulate "pseudo-humans" in a video game, but I'm afraid it would require so much CPU work, (and programming), that in DayZ you will NEVER see it.

To conclude... leave it alone, this game is already a mess... I don't think a good AI is within the reach of these programmers... and if some modder really managed to make a serious one... I would first like to see how much it costs us in terms of server CPU.

[nemorus 162]

For me its all logical - evolved behaviors. It's true that there are people who only enjoy manhunt type of action but the growing number of pve and strictly rp servers are a sign that some users look for more. OP here asked for a way to force teamwork in this game so i provided him with an option. Common enemy - but not just any enemy. If its too dumb and limited it simply can't play that role. I'm not saying enemy must be a human replica because what's the difference then? Infected are basically humans driven by endless rage towards life. Let them kill everything, let them have same limits as normal people minus using special tools (so no firearms for them).

I think that harsh environment can help with interactions in at least some cases. The best dayz i was playing was in a team and working together towards something. But thats me. Can't say for everyone.

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

5 hours ago, nemorus said:

Oh i see. When you ask people for something its ok, but if someone ask you for details you say they are "raving" at ya? Ok i will ask you again... You say that

Prove your statement. You say that "Human player behaviour is unpredictable". And yet people are dying in the game because their behaviour can be predicted by others. Prove its otherwise.

We're talking about improving PVE since that element could force people into some degree of teamwork and not just killing each other for loot. Its the 'common enemy unites' situation. Why infected can't cooperate? Why they can't properly utilize their surroundings? They're not zombies - lore is clear about that. Since there is intelligence there should also be more options for them. Right now they can't even bash open doors or climb on. Player can climb on top of a car or hesco box and kill hundreds of infected because these guys will just stay beneath and look angry.

Please show me any game with AI that can't be predicted once you've played the game for a short time. Now think about the unpredictable nature of people. Example...someone befriends you and five hours later shoots you in the back. Or, someone shoots you, but you survive and they heal you up. Or, every variable in between. Every interaction is different. You'll never get that with AI. 

[nemorus 162]

Once again - prove its "impossible". Prove that we will "never get that with AI".

Your examples are off the chart, really. Let's say infected comes to you and tells you he wanna be yer fwend. With bloodshot eyes and blood on its hands he asks you. Would you be kind enough to accept that deal? You forgot that we're talking about hostile elements from the get-go... Potential of enemies, of PVE. Currently they can only chase for certain distance and then they disappear without a trace like Houdini. Every door or any kind of climbable objects are beyond their programming. Don't tell its impossible to change that. The other way to make npcs a serious menace is to make them relentless.

AI can do anything but most titles are afraid of that. Why is it that in so many tactical games enemies constantly sell their positions and next move by yelling? Because poor players would die and feel bad. Most games are designed for ego. Save the world, kill a bear - feel better. But that doesn't mean npcs can only be dumb. Let's take "Alien: Isolation" as an example. So many guides how to win this game without taking any damage. Made by people who died tons of times to learn patterns or by those who studied the code. How clever of them. Our Infected are very different. They don't need much programming. All they need is the same chance as players to interact with environment. Its stupid how map is handicapped for players.

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

35 minutes ago, nemorus said:

Once again - prove its "impossible". Prove that we will "never get that with AI".

Your examples are off the chart, really. Let's say infected comes to you and tells you he wanna be yer fwend. With bloodshot eyes and blood on its hands he asks you. Would you be kind enough to accept that deal?

What are you talking about? Nobody is saying we will never have AI that good, but currently there is nothing that good. AI in current gen is predictable. Period. 

And who's talking about befriending AI? What the heck are you on about? Do you read what you write before you send it? And do you read what you're replying to? Smh

[nemorus 162]

Heh, i got the picture. And honestly i'm tired of your "~can't be done just because".

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

38 minutes ago, nemorus said:

Heh, i got the picture. And honestly i'm tired of your "~can't be done just because".

Complete gibberish

[nemorus 162]

Care to add anything to this topic or is it just this trolling of yours? You're slowly getting worse than this DayZWarrior1932 from experimental thread...

[Parazight 1594]

3 hours ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

Please show me any game with AI that can't be predicted once you've played the game for a short time. Now think about the unpredictable nature of people. Example...someone befriends you and five hours later shoots you in the back. Or, someone shoots you, but you survive and they heal you up. Or, every variable in between. Every interaction is different. You'll never get that with AI. 

This is true.  The only exception is the current chess engines.  Other than that, every game's AI is pathetic.  A human will always be able to predict AI behavior in current video games.   It's not even close.  If someone is relying on enemy NPC AI to provide entertainment then you are in for a short ride.

If the PVE is hard on your server it's because the player is bad or the damage is unreasonably tuned.  Infected never have, and never will, provide a true challenge.  Every single PVE server eventually serves whatever endgame it has to you in short order.  If there's no human there to set back your progress then your progress will never really be hindered.

Don't believe the hype about AI.  It's not that great.  When you look at it, AI has very, very weak learning capability and no practical problem solving skills.  AI is just data fed to instructions.   Assuming infected AI could ever be complicated, relatively speaking, is hilarious.

[Parazight 1594]

9 hours ago, nemorus said:

We're talking about improving PVE since that element could force people into some degree of teamwork and not just killing each other for loot.

That would be incredible.  But this would never happen.  In real life, people wouldn't shoot other survivors.   But here, where permadeath and setbacks in PVE don't really exist, people will always shoot other people.  That's where the best loot is.  Killing people in-game provides no negative consequences.  DayZ is not even close to authentic.

[Jevez 28]

1 hour ago, nemorus said:

Every door or any kind of climbable objects are beyond their programming. Don't tell its impossible to change that. The other way to make npcs a serious menace is to make them relentless.

True, it's a shame infected can be cheesed so easily by using doors/climbing. As can we see already with mods it's possible to have them knock down doors. It's a bit silly that they can vault over fences and gates but cannot reach the player standing on a car or a slab of concrete.

They are such a joke when you consider that you can not only kill them, but block 100% of their damage using only your fists, or just lock yourself inside a building, go prone and wait for them to go away.

The more I think about it, the more I hate the addition of being able to punch in DayZ.. something I really liked about the DayZ mod is that when you first spawn in you want to avoid the infected at all costs until you get a melee weapon, because you cannot fight back otherwise. And besides, who would actually want to go and punch any kind of zombie/infected in an apocalypse? You'd run for your life until you found some kind of melee weapon at least, if not a firearm.

I know that apparently in DayZ lore our survivors are immune but still, the idea that you'd run up and start a fist fight with one and potentially get scratched/bitten is so silly, I feel like it really ruins the tone, but I guess the current infected animations/sounds do a good enough job of that already.

[Pyongo Bongo 187]

14 hours ago, Jevez said:

The more I think about it, the more I hate the addition of being able to punch in DayZ..

Thats a terrible way of thinking.

You said it yourself, the problem is the bad infected AI not being able to punch...

I wish they would improve the zeds, if you look at Left 4 Dead 2 from 2008, the Day"Z" zeds are a JOKE.

Climbing onto cars, bashing down doors are required for the game to deserve the "full release" it apparently got years ago.

[Jevez 28]

26 minutes ago, Pyongo Bongo said:

Thats a terrible way of thinking.

You said it yourself, the problem is the bad infected AI not being able to punch...

I wish they would improve the zeds, if you look at Left 4 Dead 2 from 2008, the Day"Z" zeds are a JOKE.

Climbing onto cars, bashing down doors are required for the game to deserve the "full release" it apparently got years ago.

The AI and its lack of interactivity with the environment is a definitely the major problem, yeah.

Blocking could do with a nerf as well, I don't think the current infected would ever be taken seriously as long as we can permanently block 100% of their damage.

My main complaint with punching is mainly a vibe/tone thing, that is just makes the game feel goofy.

But I do think that being able to kill infected so easily by punching takes away from the survival feel, it would be nice if in the early game I was defenceless and had to rely on stealth to survive until I could find a weapon.
It just kinda feels lame to me that the second you spawn in you can walk up to an infected and kill it no problem, no fear, no tension, but I do agree that if other things like their AI, the amount of infected and perhaps their health/damage were altered then you would be forced to use weapons and the effectiveness of your fists wouldn't even be in conversation.