Why don't use real values in weapon ballistics?

[Kathosky 103]

Dear developers.

The ballistics values are easy to find, why don't you use real values and stop going back and forward in changing velocity, bullet drop... and so on in each update?

 

I put the example of 5.45x39 mm that has been changed in recently 1.19. Here is the change and values according to Wobo's tools: imgur.com/e3m2EBV (add h t t p s : / / without spaces)

 

And here is the IRL chart of velocity in feets/second (100 feet = 30,48 meters): imgur.com/3rdg32G (add h t t p s : / / without spaces)

 

As you can see, the comparison between real life and 1.19 velocity at muzzle in AK-74 is the following:

1.19 update -> 704 m/s                                  Real velocity -> 914 m/s

 

And the comparison between the distance at which the bullet becomes subsonic and so there is no crack in the air is the following:

1.19 update -> 575 m                                      Real subsonic at -> 800 m

 

I understand there can be a slight variation between for example AK-74 and Ak-74U because the barrel is shorter, so it starts at less muzzle velocity. This variation right now in 1.19 is too much as seen in up the Wobo's image.

Please, don't even mention "balance", balance for what? Is this game team deathmatch 5 vs 5 best of ten rounds? No, that is Counter Strike, not this game that you have to SURVIVE, even thats the memo of the game in twitter; "DayZ is a hardcore open-world survival game"... Apart from the game which is great, the ballistics and sound hearing range makes no sense to me. I hope you consider bringing it more to real life values, as I said this is pure mathematics, exist and are easy to find, don't apply what I would call subjective "balance" in ballistics, maybe in damage/penetration yes, but in how fast travels a bullet no please, otherwise don't use real names for bullets, invent your own. Like 5x29 mm for example.

Apart from that, grateful for keeping the game updating and supported after many years.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Kathosky
Format

[Parazight 1594]

That’s a great question. When alpha started, we were told the numbers would be based off of real life values.  Apparently that doesn’t matter. 
 

Dayz is definitely more game than simulator now. 

[Xeonmeister 18]

Care to explain why open-world survival games can't have stuff that's balanced? It's not a deathmatch game but you can still balance a lot of aspects of the game to make it... balanced. I mean the devs balance loot rarity too. While in real life it would probably be likely to find for example a box of duct tapes, in dayz you usually only find one in one spot. Which is done to balance the loot economy. If you create a game and implement a lot of stuff with only real life values you ll soon find imbalance - which means the game will be broken in some aspect or just not fun for certain ppl.

When you say not to mention balance it kinda just reads something like "plz dont disagree, only agreeing comments thx".

[DefectiveWater 491]

3 hours ago, Xeonmeister said:

Care to explain why open-world survival games can't have stuff that's balanced?

Fair but there's nothing balanced about SSG spawning with a scope 24/7 + it has 5 damage more than Scout and CR527.

Guns were always authentic to their real life counterparts, but with 1.19 both AK74 and AKS74u have a much slower muzzle velocity compared to the real ones (because they overbuffed 5.45 base damage values 🙄).
AKM has next to no purpose now that AK74 got a damage buff.

And how is it that still to this day AK74, AK101 and AKM have same base recoil values?
What makes it funny is that due to the attachments they spawn with it's actually the AKM that has the least recoil, then AK74 then AK101...
That makes no sense at all.

Edited October 22, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Kathosky 103]

2 hours ago, Xeonmeister said:

Care to explain why open-world survival games can't have stuff that's balanced? It's not a deathmatch game but you can still balance a lot of aspects of the game to make it... balanced. I mean the devs balance loot rarity too. While in real life it would probably be likely to find for example a box of duct tapes, in dayz you usually only find one in one spot. Which is done to balance the loot economy. If you create a game and implement a lot of stuff with only real life values you ll soon find imbalance - which means the game will be broken in some aspect or just not fun for certain ppl.

If you read my post again, I am not saying what you ask that "open-world survival games can't have stuff that's balanced?". I am talking about its ballistics and more specific about velocity and bullet drop, not more, not less. Haven't mentioned any other aspect different from related strictly to ballistics and the sound they make.

I am not against balance of the aspects as the one you mention (loot economy), as well as between others related to SURVIVAL and/or that are subjective.

3 hours ago, Xeonmeister said:

When you say not to mention balance it kinda just reads something like "plz dont disagree, only agreeing comments thx"

Well, that's what you understand from that what I wrote. Of course, I want people to write if they disagree as like you did, so maybe there are good points that I can understand or at least think. Not this case through, your reasoning sounds very general to me and doesn't even mention the main matter of my first post, which is about ballistics and why they are using fake values and changing back and forward between updates.

[Xeonmeister 18]

They are using fake values as a tool to balance different guns. You want different guns to have different strengths/weaknesses. And even tho this is not a deathmatch game it's still a game; if the m4 deals the same damage as the aug for example then the aug is obsolete.

22 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Fair but there's nothing balanced about SSG spawning with a scope 24/7 + it has 5 damage more than Scout and CR527.

True and that should be changed.

[DefectiveWater 491]

On 10/23/2022 at 1:19 PM, Xeonmeister said:

if the m4 deals the same damage as the aug for example then the aug is obsolete.

They didn't buff AUG damage just because variety, they buffed it because it makes sense that a longer barrel delivers more kinetic energy.

And funny you say obsolete... now AKM is obsolete because of the "balance". Maybe it should be more common now?.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by DefectiveWater
meh, deleted a large chunk of the message. i'll leave it up to devs, they probably have some plans.

[Kathosky 103]

21 hours ago, Xeonmeister said:

They are using fake values as a tool to balance different guns.

Faking the values of ballistics to balance weapons is not the right approach in my opinion, moreover having CE to do so.

Each time you spawn you don't choose your gear, loot or weapons. They are there in the map to find them and the way to balance weapons in particular is by its rarity in the central economy depending on how strong in general it is, not by faking the values of ballistics.

I believe there are ways to balance the stuff of the game, not even touching one of the few aspects that are objective as ballistics are. Ballistics and their values exist and are easy to find. Central economy and rarity of weapons are subjective and here is where in this particular case, weapons can be balanced. Don't fake ballistics in the name of balance, even more when there are other ways to achieve balance of other aspects as how easy is to find loot.

Since they haven't explained this matter we don't know their position but by the looks of the past two years, it's like they don't think ballistics matter anymore. Over balance of everything possible imaginable has taking over the game, which for some stuff is perfectly understandable, but there are some red lines that should have never been crossed from an authentic game born in Arma 2, one of those being velocity, drop, energy... of real life named calibers in the game.

 

21 hours ago, Xeonmeister said:

You want different guns to have different strengths/weaknesses. And even tho this is not a deathmatch game it's still a game; if the m4 deals the same damage as the aug for example then the aug is obsolete.

Just by using real ballistic values, each weapon and caliber would already have their strengths/weaknesses of their own. To name a few differences to your example of weapons between AUG and M4, they have around 700 and 900 rpm respectively. The barrel length (depending on the variant in the game that I cannot remember) is longer in the AUG, so would have more muzzle velocity. Furthermore, recoil could be simulated different in ADS just for one of the two being a bullpup rifle. And as you said these two weapons are very similar and see how different they behave. Imagine the differences between an AKM and a FAMAS, for example.

In regard to other calibers, they also have their own strengths/weaknesses. As you know, It's not the same 7,62x54 mm than 7,62x39 mm. Just to name muzzle velocity, they have around 840 and 720 m/s respectively, the second also having more drop. The values should slightly vary depending on the weapon used, being mainly because all have different length barrels. For example, this could greatly affect sniping something at 500 meters away, as any DayZ player can already guess.

 

Summarizing; balance the loot and rarity of weapons, don't balance how a real life named caliber behaves. And there is no goal other than survive. Again, their memo: "DayZ is a hardcore open-world survival game...". You don't choose your weapon at the start, this is not 5 vs 5 deathmatch best of 10 rounds plant the bomb or kill the other team as a goal. People won't choose always the best "meta" weapon, simply because they cannot, if they are lucky they'll find it or kill someone with a BK headshot at the coast. Sometimes would take lives to find it, as the FAL, which used to be very very rare, and now it's still rare, although not as much. Here is where weapons can be balanced.

 

To clarify, for all this, I am talking about vanilla. I would give the opportunity for modders and community servers to do and mess freely with any values they want.

 

Finally, it's equally worrying and confusing that in this last 1.19 update, particularly 5,45x39 mm has diverged so much from the previous values, and if you look at the AK-74U it's even more.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kathosky
Typo, apologies if there are more.

[Parazight 1594]

Good post, kathosky. 
 

Let’s balance based on rarity, realize this is a simulation as per the original high concept. 
 

If I wanted a balanced pvp game to test my gaming combat skills then I wouldn’t be playing a looting simulator like dayz, after all. 

[Kathosky 103]

16 hours ago, Parazight said:

Let’s balance based on rarity, realize this is a simulation as per the original high concept.

Thank you, we agree. You summarized better than I did. Also, thanks to all that contributed, agreed or not, because it led me to a have a more complete and clear opinion of the "ballistics matter" in the game right now.

My final summary of this matter would be the following: as a free "looting simulator" with no specific goal other than survive, weapons should be balanced based on rarity in the CE, not by faking the ballistics values.

A bit longer summary: you don't choose the "meta" weapon at the start of the game, simply because you cannot, you got to find it in the map, so there is no need to balance weapon ballistics by faking its values as if this were an FPS team deatchmatch 5 vs 5 best of ten rounds plant the bomb or kill the other team as the goal, but instead balance them in the CE of the map, based on rarity.

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

Not to derail this thread, but it is true that the direction of this game, the direction players (meaning PC Players) wanted and were in lock step with the original development team on, suddenly change when the console money grab occurred to a more watered down direction, because DayZ has always been a long play game.... not a casual play game.  But there was no way BI could hope for success on Console without making serious changes, not only in game mechanics but in the direction of the game itself to get the casuals on board.  Many people have argued with me about this, and I stress, go back and read the old posts, they are still on this forum in black and white and you can CLEARLY see the transition and how the hardcore community built around the game lambasted BI for this 180.

Of all the mistakes this development has made over the last 9 years, console inclusion was the WORST!  The game has suffered, the gameplay has suffered.  DayZ has and always will be an "almost" great game.  It will never truly live up to it's potential.  That is a cold, hard fact.

 

[Parazight 1594]

I agree with Gordon’s post, with the suggestion to change ‘BI’ with ‘Marek Spanel’. 
 

Did a whole bunch of devs leave the company before the title was complete? Yes. 
 

Is it reasonable to blame anyone but the guy making the money decisions?  No. 
 

The developers wanted to make a great game, for sure. Fairly likely that they were salaried. They had no motive to dilute the game. Only moron spanel deserves flak. 

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

1 hour ago, Parazight said:

I agree with Gordon’s post, with the suggestion to change ‘BI’ with ‘Marek Spanel’. 
 

......Onlyly moron spanel deserves flak. 

I could not agree more, you can substitute any exec from the company when I say BI, and yes, Spanel especially.

[-Gews- 7443]

It's bizarre, because in many ways the game is very hardcore. The permadeath was always "hardcore" but it's also the mechanics. For one example, loading ammunition round by round into your magazines, having to take the magazine into your hand to do it? Even Tarkov doesn't have this.

Then you look at the weapon ballistics and it's just complete nonsense, hardly based on real life at all. Same or worse as in games like PUBG and Battlefield 1. Both those titles have correct muzzle velocities, by the way. Why do they make some stuff so "hardcore" and other stuff you would expect to be "authentic", like ballistics, it has no relation to real life? And by the way, it used to be realistic values. The development direction is extremely inconsistent!

From data on WOBO's tools, left some out...

Pioneer 977.5m/s this weapon has a shorter barrel than "AUR A1", but it's shooting 255 m/s faster. Over 800 feet per second. In real life this would result in 83% more kinetic energy. LOL!
CR 550 Savanna should be about 860-865 m/s.
M 70 885.5m/s should be about 870-875 m/s.
SSG 82 880m/s should be about 980 m/s. It's right there on Wikipedia.
AUR AX 850m/s too slow, should be about 940 m/s.
LE MAS 850m/s should be about 940 m/s.
M16 850m/s why are they all so slow? Should be about 940 m/s.
Mosin 9130 824.25m/s should be about 860 m/s.
Blaze 808.5m/s slow, should be about 860-865 m/s.
VSD 785m/s too slow, should be about 835 m/s.
CR 527 768m/s too fast,18.5" barrel, should be about 730 m/s.
KA 101 765m/s again so slow. should be about 900 m/s. Extra couple inches barrel vs the M4.
M4A1 765m/s sloooow. Should be about 880 m/s.
AUR A1 722.5m/s this 5.56 weapon has a 20-inch barrel, why did the devs give it AKM speed? Should be ~940 m/s.
KA 74 704m/s should be 900 m/s. 
SK 5966 704m/s should be more like 750 m/s.
LAR 693m/s extremely slow! should be more like 840 m/s.
BK 18 672m/s extremely slow! should be more like 760 m/s.
Longhorn 616m/s extremely slow! should be more like 780 m/s.
KAM 576m/s crazy slow. Some air rifles are faster. Should be 715 m/s.
Repeater 550m/s this one is actually correct for 158 gr ammo.
KAS 74U 501.6m/s should be 735 m/s.
Deagle 440m/s this is not bad.
Sporter 22 425.5m/s not outlandish, but pretty spicy, I would put about 375.
Magnum 396m/s again not bad.
Derringer 352m/s and again! it's not bad!
Sawed Off Magnum 352m/s should be NONE. The existence of this weapon is moronic.
CR 75 350m/s not too bad.
Mlock 91 350m/s not too bad.
CR 61 Skorpion 345m/s too fast compared to IJ 70, barrel is not that much longer. Maybe +15-20 m/s.
VSS AP 320m/s not a big deal, should be more like 290.
P1 Pistol 315m/s it's way too slow, longer barrel than "Mlock 91" or "CR 75" but it's 45 m/s slower...
MK II 314.5m/s way too fast, this pistol actually has a very short ported barrel under that silencer... it should be around 260-270 m/s, IIRC.
IJ 70 300m/s not bad.
VSS 280m/s not bad, would put 290 again.
USG 45 273m/s not bad.
Kolt 1911 260m/s not bad.

But then if you sort that out you can examine "authenticity" problems with the health damage, SHOCK damage, armor damage,  air friction (ballistic coefficient)... oof.

[Kathosky 103]

Thank you, @-Gews- for taking the time to put the comparison between in game and real life velocities. Kudos to you. This gives an actual picture of how bad and inconsistent ballistics are right now, and is perfect for the tread.

I really wish developers read this and retrieve the approach of use real values for ballistics and balance weapons using the CE and other aspects of the game. Maybe not damage, penetration in plates... since I think in the game they can be subjective at some degree, but velocity,  drop, aerodynamic... and other ballistics values should be made as real. A man can dream...

2 hours ago, -Gews- said:

LAR 693m/s extremely slow! should be more like 840 m/s.

Holy shit! I didn't know it was this bad for such a weapon as the LAR aka FAL.

[Pyongo Bongo 185]

It would be so cool if we had real life values!

Even though its a small thing the game would be more simulatory, gun enthusiasts would be impressed and authenticity lovers like me would be very happy too.

[DefectiveWater 491]

Always nice to hear your take on guns in DayZ @-Gews-. You seem like a knowledgeable person and kudos to you for taking your time to write up such a detailed post.

I had no idea that so many values were wrong. Hopefully devs reconsider the current gun stats.