Completely random spawns

[Salty seadog 125]

7 hours ago, JBURNS489 said:

Okay so I just wasted a good 20 minutes of my life catching up on this thread. Lets simplify the thread and lets have some constructive criticism for and against changing the way we spawn. Talking about the backstory of how the survivors got there is pretty irrelevant to me. If you want a backstory, make one up and roleplay. Anyway, as far I can see, here are the pros and cons for making the spawn points, according to this thread, spread out across the entire map. (Not completely random so we don't spawn into water and inside buildings, but maybe 50 different spawn points that were selected by the devs, and you will randomly spawn into one of those 50.)

PROS:
- Helps to curb constant deathmatching  and camping on the coast

- Will force people to explore the map which the Dev's have so painstakingly revamped for the Standalone

- Helps the mechanic abuse of people suiciding for a "desired" spawn location

- Makes running for hours A LOT less boring, because you have to watch for other people constantly

- Adds more realism and tension no matter where you are or what you're doing (the Dayz Feels)

- When you die, it is a true Perma Death.

- Adds to the survival aspect of DayZ, which is sorely lacking at the moment.

 

CONS:

- Takes longer to find your friends or group

- Harder to camp "Freshies" (This could be in the Pro Section, but it was mentioned as a reason against)

- If spawns were completely randomized, possibility of spawning in stuck or in a weird spot

- Big increase in difficulty for new players, possibly too hard

 

Anyone have anything to add?

 

Thanks, perfect summarization of what i'm trying to get across!

I know there is a few more points that could be added, but most could be argued on both sides. Some might see spawning in as new player in random spots as a problem, but that's personally when I enjoyed this game the most, when I didnt know where I was, and I needed to find a compass and spend time getting my bearings. It made the experience feel a lot more real.

Also I know the CLE is being worked into zones, but my argument against would be the fact that I feel it lacks diversity. You wake up and know where you are within a  few seconds, and you either join the TDM at the larger towns, or you probably have a good "route" that you run on your way to NWAF and back. Its the same experience everytime, and I feel if you have a route ready for every respawn, its not really an open sandbox experience. Even if I spawned inside a tent inside NWAF, so what? It would be a lucky spawn, but it would be completely different from the last one. I might even need to trade my AKM with a drum mag for a tin of peaches with some random nearby (provided surviving gets harder!). And if you spawn completely random, it would make it much harder to just suicide immediately for a more favorable spawn.

The different health, character and scenarios were only a suggestion to add a feint backstory you could work with, Im not really sure what the current backstory is, just though this might help you feel a little more attached to your character if you didn't suicide non stop and just re-appear as the same dude.

 

I dunno, but seen as were still in alpha, I though now would be the perfect time to try it out for a patch and see what happens, because if people end up preferring it, there would be plenty of time to tweak the CLE or give feedback on it.

 

EDIT: I also fear that the devs might be looking at the heatmaps, and seeing a good spread of players. But in reality, its just solo people on empty servers looting military locations and doing heli runs, then just hopping back into full servers on top of some sniper building.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Salty seadog

[Salty seadog 125]

5 hours ago, emuthreat said:

What I was trying to get at by pointing out the zonal loot spawn control system, is that it looks like they are investing a fair amount of energy into a situation dependent on players spawning in region 1, along the coast.  So based on this knowledge, I am nearly certain that randomized spawns, as you described, are not going to be a goal for 1.0.

If you still want to talk about the possible merits and pitfalls of a completely randomized spawn system, please share your ideas for how this can be done without causing the types of problems that were pointed out by Irishjake, Pilgrim, and myself.  They are all very valid concerns.

Pilgrim was concerned about new players being completely lost, Jake was concerned about players spawning into geometry and waiting to die, and I am concerned about players spawning into camps.  If you have a solution that addresses all of those concerns, I would be interested to hear it.

Also refer back to my point about zonal loot distribution; which I would think makes this discussion pretty pointless as far as the official 1.0 development cycle is concerned.

Missed your post, but I still think most of these could be worked around or addressed.

1) Pilgrim brought up being lost, this is actually what I would consider a pro, elongating that initial survive or die stage is personally the funnest part, and being lost makes each and every spawn present itself with new threats/rewards and a diverse experience. Imagine having nothing (or just a random handful of items), and spawning deep into the north west forest and having to use your crafting knowledge to survive, having to take the chance drinking out of pond water until you find a road and fight off zombies all while trying to survive being sick.

 

2) As Irishjake brought up spawning into objects and such, very funny pics, but im failing to see how this would be a concern, provided the dev's just implemented it right, which I have full confidence they could do. Maybe if the spawn system relied on some algorithm that had infinite spawn points, and no two spawns were the same, I could see cause for concern. Im not a Developer, but creating maps and game modes in GTA 5 allowed you to manually place spawn locations for players, so I assume that's somewhat similar to how they would place them in DayZ. So by completely random spawns, I mean spending a day or two placing 1000s of them all over the map and just repeatedly testing each spawn after being placed. I know its a tedious ask, but I don't see it being a major blocking issue for trying out the idea.

 

3) And as you mentioned, the concern for a freshie just popping up in your base or near it, I feel this is the only real problem that we would need to overcome. I still think its the lesser of two evils, but im sure we could come up with some way to at least soften the blow. Also, it could be you who gets the lucky spawn, so there is that?  What if, once you placed an object down or built a base, there was a bubble that would remove all spawns within a set distance (500m for a barrel, 1km for a base?) around the placed object. It may not be perfect, but that could be one of a few solutions that could help?

[emuthreat 2837]

Much of that argument was describing the problems that could come from truly random spawns, as opposed to the system we have now, with designated spawn points, that are cycled through somewhat randomly.  If you go back earlier in the thread, I described how player-placed spawn exclusion 'totems' could be strategically placed to narrow the placement of remaining viable spawns for a tactical advantage to those already in control of the server; essentially making a base exclusion mechanic a complete non-start.  The only workable exception to this would be to have a player be able to craft a bedroll, but only that one bedroll to designate their 'home' camp. 

In some cases, they say, "less is more."  Having to arbitrarily select a few dozen extra spawn points is markedly easier for development than to introduce new convoluted systems to solve a problem that never needed to be created in the first place.  As long as the number of spawns doubles the number of players allowed on the server, there should be very little problem with having static spawns.  

[Luc Tonnerre 174]

Guys wait, I have the best idea ever!

Why not letting players spawn in mid-air? Give them a freaking parachute and let them spawn at 2km altitude. Profit.

I mean, it's better than "waking" up at the beach.

Also, there are already heli crashes all over the map so it would make sense (narratively) if the players were the former passengers of one of them helis?

I say "passengers" because the (military) crew wouldn't leave the heli without their gear, I guess. So they all have to die (narratively) and only some (un)lucky civilians survive and are able to parachute out of them helis.

(i know you all love my idea because it's awesome. don't be ashamed to hit that "like" button)

MAKE IT SO!

[pilgrim* 3514]

14 hours ago, Salty seadog said:

..//..
t I still think most of these could be worked around or addressed.
..//..

You say:
<< I feel the biggest area for improvement in the game is the flow of players, and use of the full map.>>
<< I .. fear that the devs might be looking at the heatmaps, and seeing a good spread of players. But in reality, its just solo people on empty servers looting military locations and doing heli runs >>

Well - Devs are not so dumb: In reality, it's the many people on full servers looting military locations and doing heli runs who fill in the heat maps 20 or 30 times faster that the 'solo players on empty servers' doing the same thing.
That's how statistical heat maps work.

I understand what you are getting at, but ..
- you are mixing up your own level of play and your experience of the map with other people's level of play - Some folk don't know the map at all and some players know it inside out.
I've crossed the map quite often at night on foot with my gamma set exactly the way it is in daylight (I don't ever touch it) and I've gone from the South West corner to the mid northern border and back, and from the East coast to the West edge with zero artificial light at all. For me that's fun. Plenty of players always know their location - eg, Tatanko & Irishjake & OdinLowe (to mention a few among many)
 
Spawn me anywhere on the map and in 3-4 minutes I'll know exactly where I am and exactly how to get to every loot spawn. I'm not the only one

Spawn a beginner anywhere on the map and in 3-4 minutes he'll start suiciding until he finds a big town, or he'll freak after the 4th suicide when he's still lost, and he'll give up playing DayZ for good.

xxp
 

Edited April 1, 2016 by pilgrim*

[Salty seadog 125]

On 4/1/2016 at 1:42 PM, emuthreat said:

Much of that argument was describing the problems that could come from truly random spawns, as opposed to the system we have now, with designated spawn points, that are cycled through somewhat randomly.  If you go back earlier in the thread, I described how player-placed spawn exclusion 'totems' could be strategically placed to narrow the placement of remaining viable spawns for a tactical advantage to those already in control of the server; essentially making a base exclusion mechanic a complete non-start.  The only workable exception to this would be to have a player be able to craft a bedroll, but only that one bedroll to designate their 'home' camp. 

In some cases, they say, "less is more."  Having to arbitrarily select a few dozen extra spawn points is markedly easier for development than to introduce new convoluted systems to solve a problem that never needed to be created in the first place.  As long as the number of spawns doubles the number of players allowed on the server, there should be very little problem with having static spawns.  

You're right, that would definitely be the best way to implement it, craft and place a bedroll for your base. Have two boundary circles that protrude from it, one larger one (500m rough estimate) that removes possible spawns within this area, and a smaller boundary that prevents people from placing objects within your territory (would prevent trolling or people walling over your front door, and would prevent people walking over the map placing and picking up objects as a form of trying to find the location of someones base). Would also be cool to have the option to permanently remove trees within the smaller boundary, so you could clear a small opening in a forest to create more room for base expansion.

On 4/1/2016 at 8:06 PM, Luc Tonnerre said:

Guys wait, I have the best idea ever!

Why not letting players spawn in mid-air? Give them a freaking parachute and let them spawn at 2km altitude. Profit.

I mean, it's better than "waking" up at the beach.

Also, there are already heli crashes all over the map so it would make sense (narratively) if the players were the former passengers of one of them helis?

I say "passengers" because the (military) crew wouldn't leave the heli without their gear, I guess. So they all have to die (narratively) and only some (un)lucky civilians survive and are able to parachute out of them helis.

(i know you all love my idea because it's awesome. don't be ashamed to hit that "like" button)

MAKE IT SO!

That would be cool, but I think it would cause some problems if they didn't implement it right. If everyone parachuted in, I could see that being a very effective way to scout for bases, and if you were able to kill yourself with a bad landing, you could effectively keep going until you spot a base.

Only way I could see it working in the game is if:

1) you had a blindfold on while parachuting, which probably would remove the fun from the idea! or...

2) If they decided to use a series of different spawn scenario's, this could be one of many different types of spawns possible, but most importantly, it was only possible to trigger this scenario in certain locations where spotting someones base would be super unlikely. So I would probably say, out off the coast along the whole map or over big cities.

On 4/1/2016 at 2:51 AM, pilgrim* said:

You say:
<< I feel the biggest area for improvement in the game is the flow of players, and use of the full map.>>
<< I .. fear that the devs might be looking at the heatmaps, and seeing a good spread of players. But in reality, its just solo people on empty servers looting military locations and doing heli runs >>

Well - Devs are not so dumb: In reality, it's the many people on full servers looting military locations and doing heli runs who fill in the heat maps 20 or 30 times faster that the 'solo players on empty servers' doing the same thing.
That's how statistical heat maps work.

I understand what you are getting at, but ..
- you are mixing up your own level of play and your experience of the map with other people's level of play - Some folk don't know the map at all and some players know it inside out.
I've crossed the map quite often at night on foot with my gamma set exactly the way it is in daylight (I don't ever touch it) and I've gone from the South West corner to the mid northern border and back, and from the East coast to the West edge with zero artificial light at all. For me that's fun. Plenty of players always know their location - eg, Tatanko & Irishjake & OdinLowe (to mention a few among many)
 
Spawn me anywhere on the map and in 3-4 minutes I'll know exactly where I am and exactly how to get to every loot spawn. I'm not the only one

Spawn a beginner anywhere on the map and in 3-4 minutes he'll start suiciding until he finds a big town, or he'll freak after the 4th suicide when he's still lost, and he'll give up playing DayZ for good.

xxp
 

I was just bringing it up as a possibility they might have overlooked, and im not calling them dumb either. But just looking at the server browser, there's less than a handful of full pop servers, then there is about 50+ servers with one or two people in it, obviously serverhopping the mill barracks or heli hunting. So yeah when the devs say they primarily use the heatmaps to try and influence the flow of players, I thought it might be worth mentioning the possibility of false positives that the heatmap would provide. 

 

- Im not mixing up my level of play with anyone else's, because I can only comment on my own experience of this game. This was also the first DayZ game I played, then I went back and played the mod, arma 3 and BP. It was also the first PC game I have played as I had moved from a ps4 just prior. So I can only speak from my own experience here, but as a complete noob to PC, DayZ and the map of cherno, I can tell you in 100% certainty that spawning and not knowing where the hell you are, what buttons to press to run or crouch, any crafting recipes, not even knowing about the DayZ DB map and struggling to adapt to a mouse and keyboard, none of those things had any negative impact on my experience. So spawning as a beginner, and not having your hand held, to me is a non problem. If it was though, something as simple as spawning newer players with better starting loot would be an easy fix.

The whole game is based off of learning from mistakes in your previous life, and adapting with each life, so if your the type of person to throw your keyboard out the window as a new player if you havent spawned with a goodybag and a compass on the road to NWAF,  this game probably wont suit your temperment. Being lost and having to follow a road or suffer your first few deaths is small fries compared to finally getting fully geared and suddenly "you are dead" or meeting someone friendly only to have them shoot you in the back of the head for a tin of peaches while they scream something unsettlingly crast at your corpse as you process what happened. I actually though not knowing where i was with each spawn was great at the start, it made it feel that much more real, and I felt I had to adapt and learn or die. But as I got better and more familiar with the map, it was such a letdown to come to the realization that it was the same few spawn areas that 99% of the server was hanging around, and that the 100s of hours walking around the map led to nothing interesting, no player encounters.

I think trying it out for one patch could only help the game, and just see how people react to it.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Salty seadog