The problem with the game. My views

[Noctoras 409]

Those are large cities, the map is just scaled down like everything else.  If you can eat through even a small towns worth of food in a couple of weeks you have an eating disorder =P

 

 

Have you been to third world countries?  There are many places that exist without power, refrigeration, sewage (I mean you notice that all the outskirt towns have outhouses right?) and police.  They aren't all struggling to survive.

 

No, but for all means of logic, they are not only KOSing either, if you are going down the road of realism. They are equally not able to handle a sniper rifle as though they were born with it from day one either, neither do they all have the same skill set. Have yet to see KOSers in third world countries. Usually they kill with a purpose, not out of mere boredom - and most will think twice before shooting someone. But that's just for the record, I am well aware that you cannot get this degree of realism into a game (well, maybe you can, but that's for another dev studio at some point in the future then).

[Bororm 1156]

No, but for all means of logic, they are not only KOSing either, if you are going down the road of realism. They are equally not able to handle a sniper rifle as though they were born with it from day one either, neither do they all have the same skill set. Have yet to see KOSers in third world countries. Usually they kill with a purpose, not out of mere boredom - and most will think twice before shooting someone. But that's just for the record, I am well aware that you cannot get this degree of realism into a game (well, maybe you can, but that's for another dev studio at some point in the future then).

 

That's a different topic altogether.  

 

According to Whyherro, we're all dying of splinters and sweat as soon as the electricity goes out which is what I was addressing.

[Noctoras 409]

I know, it's just hard to implement realism into a video game, that was my point. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend or attack you.

[FrigginTommyNoble 61]

I know, it's just hard to implement realism into a video game, that was my point. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend or attack you.

 

You're absolutely right. The point I think some of the hardcore survivalist types miss is that survival is the exact opposite of fun. It' sucks ass. Every day. All day. That's not actually what we want to simulate in a survival game, as you point out.

 

I'm actually prototyping a DayZ clone in Unity, just for fun/learning. I implemented a system where, when you shoot, you have a high base chance of missing, because it's HARD to hit your target IRL. If you shoot at a person, you have an even higher chance of missing, because IRL, shooting at human-sized animals pumps you full of adrenaline, drives your heart rate up, tenses your muscles, and generally makes your aim less reliable.

 

Well, the code was kick-ass. It all worked. Math was solid. Aaaaaand it was frustrating as F***. It wasn't fun, it wasn't rewarding, there was literally no upside. Even when you hit your target on the first shot, you knew it was largely luck, and totally decoupled from skill.

 

So, my point is, it's easy for us survivalist types to nit-pick the lack of realism, or think we want more realism, but ultimately this game needs to be a fun and rewarding experience. That comes first. Realism needs to serve the game's enjoyment, not vice versa.

Edited October 1, 2015 by FrigginTommyNoble

[Noctoras 409]

of course you're right on this as well - however, the game having become a mere KOS simulator can be frustrating as well, unless you swim with the tide. I think more player interaction would also make it more rewarding and I think survival or individual skill elements would actually help on this way.

 

Of course this does not mean to simulate obstipation on the toilet or whatever frustrating stuff reality involves.

[pillock 850]

I don't understand the idea that we should be constantly starving and cold and fighting for basic survival.  Just because the apocalypse hits doesn't mean everything else changes and becomes so desperate.  The opposite scenario could be true, and over abundance of resources as everyone else is dead or left.  All those clothes, nonperishable foods, medicines, tools, supplies in your house don't simply disappear because zombies.  And now we're a handful of survivors in an entire country worth of supplies.

 

For me, this is the point. Whether or not there would be ample supplies left over, it makes for better gameplay if the 'struggle for survival' aspects are emphasised. If not, then the game is just about running and looting shooting - which gets boring.

 

Having to constantly deal with character health problems like injury and sickness and hunger and fatigue and so on should be driving players to loot and rob and hunt and farm and forage and scavenge. It gives those gameplay elements a sense of purpose. Without the 'struggle', there's no reason for it and everything becomes a chore, or you find yourself searching around the gameworld for something to do.

 

Why fix up a vehicle? Because it's fun to drive around? Perhaps the first couple of times, yes, but it would lose its appeal. If you need a vehicle in order to transport supplies, because you or one of your group is in a bad way, then there is purpose.

 

Why engage in combat? Because PvP is fun? Yes, perhaps, but is that what DayZ is supposed to be? A combat sim? Personally, I hope not. If you need to use force to defend your camp, or steal supplies from another group, because your health and very survival depends on it, it gives the experience a much-needed edge - a purpose.

 

The game needs you to have to struggle to keep your toon alive, because the other gameplay elements are pointless without it.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Pillock

[xalienax 621]

For me, this is the point. Whether or not there would be ample supplies left over, it makes for better gameplay if the 'struggle for survival' aspects are emphasised. If not, then the game is just about running and looting shooting - which gets boring.

 

Having to constantly deal with character health problems like injury and sickness and hunger and fatigue and so on should be driving players to loot and rob and hunt and farm and forage and scavenge. It gives those gameplay elements a sense of purpose. Without the 'struggle', there's no reason for it and everything becomes a chore, or you find yourself searching around the gameworld for something to do.

 

Why fix up a vehicle? Because it's fun to drive around? Perhaps the first couple of times, yes, but it would lose its appeal. If you need a vehicle in order to transport supplies, because you or one of your group is in a bad way, then there is purpose.

 

Why engage in combat? Because PvP is fun? Yes, perhaps, but is that what DayZ is supposed to be? A combat sim? Personally, I hope not. If you need to use force to defend your camp, or steal supplies from another group, because your health and very survival depends on it, it gives the experience a much-needed edge - a purpose.

 

The game needs you to have to struggle to keep your toon alive, because the other gameplay elements are pointless without it.

pretty much my exact view as well.

[VIPEREYE1 17]

I feel like SA has many problems currently; the biggest one being lack of focus/expertise/transparency in game design. DayZ SA has been surpassed in the game mechanics aspect by virtually every "survival game" on the market. The engine refactoring (under the guise of a new game engine) has significantly delayed development progress and (I assume) has taken development resources away from the game design team. The game designers do not communicate their design concepts with us. Peter Nespesny last posted on these forums something in May 2015.

 

TL;DR: Game design transparency @ Bohemia is not great.

 

That being said, I personally believe that DayZ SA will become a great platform for other people to build their mods on. Modding support can't be released soon enough.

 

Omg this has been my biggest concern for months, that the set backs have taken away from content that could have been added, thats why i'm hoping they extend the development cycle for even long if that's the case. I think we all are concerned about that and it's exactly why people are so upset and unhappy and they are communicating this fear in forums.

 

So when the game is released 2016 and half way to 2017, modding support will be released.. then modders take a year or two to develop amazing mods...so basically..2018-2019 we will have some thing worth while if dayz flops.

 

Why don't we just round up to 2020 at this point lol. I guess people were right all along, Dayz truly will be released 2020 with enjoyable content.

Edited October 8, 2015 by VIPEREYE1

[VIPEREYE1 17]

I agree with you here. My lady was watching me play this morning, and she made fun of the drinking mechanic so hard. I went up to a well pump and did the usual spam F to drink and cancel action and drink (as if I'm gonna be troubled to wait for that ridiculously long animation if I don't have to).

 

Well, naturally, in the lower left it said:

 

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

I drink some water from the well.

 

This is what I'm talking about. Clearly, this mechanic is awkward, and the UI is justifiably laughable. I hope all these systems really do get swapped out, and not just ported over to the same Arma 2 engine with a new renderer.

 

if your hinting at having a HUD like the developers mentioned that's it's pure blasphemy. Unless it's optional.  And if it so happens that it's not optional then i guess i won't be planning on playing dayz in the distant future. But i'm pretty sure the community would freak out if some thing like that happened.

[VIPEREYE1 17]

^ What is funny is that the developers, Brian Hicks included, ripped on "PvP exclusive" players a couple of months ago.

 

Where that all went, I don't know.

Cause you know, after wandering around fully geared for 2 hours staring at the shiny new gun i have, i get this strong urge to engage in meaningful conversation with a fellow survivor and tell some jokes, and then wander around with company for another 2 hours aimlessly, Hell why not just rally up every player i see and prance through the magical fields of the west and have a giant picnic?

 

We will play guitar, and tell story's of our magical adventures of picking up water bottles and snaring innocent bunny rabbits.

 

point being you cant RIP on players because they PVP, chances are those players don't even want to be "PVP exclusive" it's that they don't have any fucking choice. Also it's a survival game and most often its just overall better to shoot first and ask questions later, unless you are faced against impossible odd's and communicating becomes the most effective means of survival.

 

My play style involves me surviving using any means, if communicating allows me to survive a situation i will do it, if it's safer to shoot someone that has there gun drawn and has spotted me, then i will do that.

[VIPEREYE1 17]

 

Edited October 8, 2015 by VIPEREYE1

[bfisher 561]

I don't understand the idea that we should be constantly starving and cold and fighting for basic survival.  Just because the apocalypse hits doesn't mean everything else changes and becomes so desperate.  The opposite scenario could be true, and over abundance of resources as everyone else is dead or left.  All those clothes, nonperishable foods, medicines, tools, supplies in your house don't simply disappear because zombies.  And now we're a handful of survivors in an entire country worth of supplies.

 

I think there's a bit of a weird situation where people define the term "survival" as eating bugs and making lean tos, probably a result of too many shows with the word in the title featuring just that.  The term encompasses a lot more, or even a lot less on a basic level.  Surviving other players fits the definition just as much as surviving starvation.

 

I also don't think it's any surprise that a game development studio specializing in military sims, creating a game based on a military sim engine, from a mod that was popular because of pvp, is creating a pvp centric game.

 

All that said I'm not saying I'm not in favor of more pve elements, they need to catch up to the pvp.  But I just think people have an expectation this game is going to turn into something it's not simply because their definition of survival is limited.

 

I think the expectation is the game will turn into a better version of the Mod.

 

You don't need to be "constantly starving and cold".  The basic premise of DayZ, however, is that your character has needs that must be met.  Health, food, drink and temperature (maybe others).  These needs have to be met or your character dies.  Kind of like The Sims, but with zombies.  As long as you are meeting those needs, you can do whatever you want in the world.  Kill zombies, build a camp, restore a classic car, PvP, whatever.

 

In fact, it is having to meet those needs that should drive the action in DayZ.  You can PvP all the live long day if you feel like it, but at some point, you need to go find some food or drink so you don't starve.  The flip side is maybe you don't want to PvP, but you still need to venture into the cities where all the psychos are killing each other to get the supplies you need to survive alone in the wilderness.

 

Or maybe you fell into a pond to escape from some bandits or whatever, but now you're soaked and need to find dry clothing or build a fire.

 

And PvE doesn't have to be constant starvation and freezing.  The whole idea of base building is so you can maintain a somewhat defensible location to shelter from the elements and maintain a larger supply of clothes, food, drink and ammo than you can carry.

[Konfucious K 183]

Just a point on the always starving thing. I'm not sure how many people have ever ran for a day or two with little to no balanced nutrition, but from the sounds of it some don't understand how much food and drink we need when maintaining a high heart rate. I'm not saying the system doesn't need tweaking, but I would state that any tweaks should be minor at best. By minor I mean in the 10-20% range at most. As it stands the nutrition is sort of ok at alpha stage.

[FrigginTommyNoble 61]

Just a point on the always starving thing. I'm not sure how many people have ever ran for a day or two with little to no balanced nutrition, but from the sounds of it some don't understand how much food and drink we need when maintaining a high heart rate. I'm not saying the system doesn't need tweaking, but I would state that any tweaks should be minor at best. By minor I mean in the 10-20% range at most. As it stands the nutrition is sort of ok at alpha stage.

 

I just think we need more depth and granularity, and a better notification system. The way the game plays now, survival elements quickly become afterthoughts. The first 20 mins, when you're gathering the basics, that's when you feel survival pressure. After that, the survival elements are completely ignored until you start getting these nagging UI messages. I'm hungry. I want some food. I need to eat something. Every 20 seconds or so. That feels broken.

 

In reality, your needs are visceral. You don't go from stuffed to super-hungry without noticing. I'm not asking for some kind of HUD, or anything. But I expect the game to naturally and fluidly connect you to your character's state, and have your general health be an ever-present concern..

 

Health could be a really deep mechanic. Suddenly, for no reason, "I don' feel very good." Or, "my stomach hurts." Then you would have to go through a process of discovering why you're not feeling good. You should be able to make home-remedies out of household items or plants. Not just "get water and hunger super-green and wait."

 

Food could be more deep. I like the idea of needing more than just raw calories of any type. I'd like to have to balance carbs, protein, and fats, and find or grow food rich in vitamins, electrolytes, etc. If not, you can get sick or dehydrated, or you won't be able to run as fast/far.

[scriptfactory 620]

I'm not asking for some kind of HUD, or anything.

 

Health could be a really deep mechanic.

 

Food could be more deep.

 

The deeper the survival mechanics, the more likely they are to need a HUD. As far as I have seen, attempts at a minimal user interface without a HUD (e.g. flashing screen, character sounds, etc.) has problems adequately communicating current status to a user. Do you have an example of a natural and fluid UI in a survival game?

 

In Breaking Point they use screen decals and character sounds to convey the various medical statuses. While it works quite well for short-term effects (e.g. stun, bleeding, etc.) it is pretty bad for persistent, long-term mechanics (i.e. hunger, thirst and sickness.)

 

Exile is a good example of a minimal UI adequately conveying survival mechanics. Now, the survival mechanics in Exil are simple and yet they definitely affect gameplay in noticeable ways. Because your values are clearly visible in the HUD it gives players the ability to make intelligent decision based on this information. Here is the scenario:

 

I had just finished an AI mission all by my lonesome in a distant corner of Bornholm. I saw the airdrop coming in and the mortar explosions started going off. Now, this process normally lasts a couple of minutes, which is nothing, but my hydration status was around 20%. I stupidly forgot my water bottles at my safehouse (a converted industrial storage shed) and had a choice to make.

 

1. Get all of the loot into my vehicle and risk death. This isn't that bad. I could run back to my body fairly quickly but someone might steal the leftover loot in the process. They might also ambush me on the way back to my body.

2. Just get the most valuable stuff, go get water, and then come back to loot the rest. This way I would make certain my more valuable loot was safe

2. Search the nearby houses for water while keeping an eye on the loot stash. This might make me die anyway.

 

As I am going over the various options in my head someone started shooting at me. I ducked behind a hillside and took careful aim. It was a perfect headshot. I ran over to this guys body and there it was, my precious liquid of life. It was a great experience.

 

This story contains many elements of what I feel is missing in SA. Clear communication of survival status. Mission objectives that are made more difficult by shitty planning on my part. Event-driven player interaction.

[pillock 850]

I just think we need more depth and granularity, and a better notification system. The way the game plays now, survival elements quickly become afterthoughts. The first 20 mins, when you're gathering the basics, that's when you feel survival pressure. After that, the survival elements are completely ignored until you start getting these nagging UI messages. I'm hungry. I want some food. I need to eat something. Every 20 seconds or so. That feels broken.

 

I think the important thing is that having negative health statuses, such as hunger or fatigue or cold should actually affect your gameplay. It shouldn't just be a bit of text at the bottom of the screen saying "I am starving" or whatever - there should be some kind of audio/visual impairment, as well as effects on the character's movement ability, in order to simulate the fact that being hungry, etc, is distracting and it does get in the way of your normal functions.

 

And pain! Pain needs to be a thing. Again, audio/visual effects, perhaps tunnel-visioning or something, in extreme cases. Pain stops you doing stuff, it makes normal tasks harder, it distracts you from what you want to do and affects your awareness of your surroundings.

 

"My leg hurts" doesn't cut it.

[FrigginTommyNoble 61]

[...]

 

As I am going over the various options in my head someone started shooting at me. I ducked behind a hillside and took careful aim. It was a perfect headshot. I ran over to this guys body and there it was, my precious liquid of life. It was a great experience.

 

This story contains many elements of what I feel is missing in SA. Clear communication of survival status. Mission objectives that are made more difficult by shitty planning on my part. Event-driven player interaction.

 

Yes! This is exactly what I'm getting at. I hesitate to get into specifics, because DayZ veterans tend to disparage any kind of "in-game" mechanics that might be overly "gamey." I don't mean that as a knock, I just know specifics tend to get shot down, sometimes (imo) unfairly. Also, I don't presume to know more about game design than the devs, so it's most important to let them know the kind of experience I want, without necessarily trying to dictate the implementation.

 

 

I think the important thing is that having negative health statuses, such as hunger or fatigue or cold should actually affect your gameplay. It shouldn't just be a bit of text at the bottom of the screen saying "I am starving" or whatever - there should be some kind of audio/visual impairment, as well as effects on the character's movement ability, in order to simulate the fact that being hungry, etc, is distracting and it does get in the way of your normal functions.

 

And pain! Pain needs to be a thing. Again, audio/visual effects, perhaps tunnel-visioning or something, in extreme cases. Pain stops you doing stuff, it makes normal tasks harder, it distracts you from what you want to do and affects your awareness of your surroundings.

 

"My leg hurts" doesn't cut it.

 

Agree with this as well.

 

Although The Long Dark is a bit too brutal for multiplayer, in that game you're constantly managing survival. Those systems are a bit too simple too, just a constant linear drain of food and water. But the way TLD inform's you about your status, little vocalizations (the voice acting is really subtle and great), limping when you sprain an ankle. Your remaining calories show temporarily on the screen every 500 calories. That's the kind of stuff that makes survival drive your actions.

[darkrider400 76]

To OP, stop running on the coast. This isn't like newborn DayZ SA where you could find M4's in a residential house in Elektro. As soon as you spawn, find the nearest orchard, drop that useless rag and flare, eat enough apples to get you hydrated and energized, then fill your inventory with apples. At that point, head as far inland as you can, the closer to NWAF/Tisy base you get, the better and more common that military loot gets, to the point where you'll find AK's in literally every building you come to.

[bfisher 561]

I think the important thing is that having negative health statuses, such as hunger or fatigue or cold should actually affect your gameplay. It shouldn't just be a bit of text at the bottom of the screen saying "I am starving" or whatever - there should be some kind of audio/visual impairment, as well as effects on the character's movement ability, in order to simulate the fact that being hungry, etc, is distracting and it does get in the way of your normal functions.

 

And pain! Pain needs to be a thing. Again, audio/visual effects, perhaps tunnel-visioning or something, in extreme cases. Pain stops you doing stuff, it makes normal tasks harder, it distracts you from what you want to do and affects your awareness of your surroundings.

 

"My leg hurts" doesn't cut it.

 

I think they plan to do that eventually.  But I thought all that stuff was done really well in the Mod (or ArmA II I suppose).  You had the HUD which IMHO gave you a better sense of your character's actual health than "I feel hungry".  You saw the food/drink/health meters dropping, then flashing.  As your health got worse, the color faded like it does now.  It also blurred (it might still, but I turned off post-processing because I felt like my character is underwater).

 

Pain caused you to shake uncontrollably.  A significant problem when trying to aim.

 

A broken leg meant you could no longer walk.  Then meant weighing the option of dragging your character a mile to find morphine or two miles to kill yourself and start over.

 

But yeah.  the game should do a better job showing you rather than telling you what's wrong with your character

[Bororm 1156]

They need to disconnect motion blur from post processing like it was in the mod.  I turn off post processing too, because I can't stand motion blur in any game.  As a result, I don't get blurry vision from low health/sickness etc, which is pretty lame and honestly makes me feel like a bit of a scumbag even if it's not intentional.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Bororm

[scriptfactory 620]

Shit. I want to play this game you just invented.

[maximumak777 (DayZ) 23]

I agree. It's like the developers went AFK, permanently.

[VIPEREYE1 17]

The loot system currently encourages you to just server hop if you want to gear up on the coast.  You're best off joining a low pop server, hitting all the cars in cherno, and then switching over.  Otherwise the coastal towns are cleared out because loot respawns too slowly.

 

Likewise, the "end game" kind of gear is the same.  If you want assault rifles and corresponding mags, you can trek across the map to a mil base.  On a high pop server chances are you're going to run into squads there, which is fine and fun, they're hot spots.  However, since the loot system is as it is, if you brave the base itself you're likely to just find boots and hats that no one has bothered to move so they don't cycle.  If you're extremely lucky you'll find an assault rifle, but likely not the corresponding mag/ammo.  So the option is to either come back hours later, hoping some one else cycled the loot for you or to server hop.  And even more so, server hop to a server where you're the only one on it and cycle it yourself.

 

Hopefully this is resolved when loot doesn't need to be interacted with for it to respawn, so there's a more constant turn over of items.

 

Finding food and regular gear isn't that big of a deal if you get off the coast to inland towns.  It's just that the game is forcing you to move off the coast which is a shitty way of creating traffic imo.  The mod did a much better job of providing motivation without straight up forcing movement.  It sounds like that's what they are striving to replicate though, so hopefully it gets there.

 

I play on a private server so i think it's hilarious that anyone is complaining about loot, I dislike the server hopping exploit. I have had absolutely no issue's with finding loot, Also the server im on does not seem to respawn loot as quickly as others, still no issue's, i'm fully geared, bored as hell, my character has been alive for 10 days. Life sucks with gear :/

[VIPEREYE1 17]

My philosophy on the loot system now is "if it looks like loot would not spawn there, then loot it" And half the time i find a mosin or blaze, Can's of food and clouthes.