Lets talk about the Recoil system and stabilization of firearms

[DarkenedxGospel 0]

Right so right out the gate I'm gonna say a few things I've got 1200 hours on the SA and another 2 and a half thousand on the Mod. I'm not new,far from it and across the entire time of my game play I've seen a few things that i feel need to be addressed, but before i go into too much detail i just wanna say to a few of the elitists that will attempt to jump down my throat for this. Bohemia is first and foremost a business, they exist to design, produce, and sell a product for profit. which means they have to market that product to as many consumers as possible that's just business 101. This means that certain aspects need to be changed to cater to a larger consumer base even though "veteran" consumers of the product feel it will "dumb down" the game play. Now that ive addressed this I'd like to move to my topics for this forum post first and foremost.

 

Automatic Weapon Recoil.

In this game we have multiple automatic weapons from rifles to sub-machine guns. As of .57 ive noticed a trend that I've been keeping on top of since roughly .48 (I've always been geared more towards precision weapons such as the Mosin and sks before this) and that is that these weapons with the exception of the M4 and AUG (neither of which i have used for .57 so if this is no longer accurate please feel free to drop in fresh information about them I also have not been able to find a 101 since this update so if there are changes to it as well please feel free to add in again.) the AK-74, AKM, Rak and 74u have very broken recoil systems, you can no longer accurately control and fire these weapons in combat situations without the depletion of massive amounts of ammo due to the heavy amount of recoil and a bullet spread pattern that doesn't really seem to add up. Before you could get a reasonable accuracy for controlled burst fire of these weapons, currently it seems after you fire your first shot from one of these guns now it hikes multiple feet up into the air which is incredibly unrealistic. when you shoot any type of firearm you are always braced in some manner or form to reduce and control fire spread and recoil. Lately when i use automatics and bolt actions which ill touch upon shortly, I feel like im using a gun one handed with no way to control the recoil or the spread which is problematic in 95% of firefights in Day Z. I'm a huge fan of the entire breath control stamina system that's currently in use in the standalone its realistic your not gonna run 5 miles and be ready to accurately engage in a firefight. However, with the current recoil and spread system in place on top of the breath and fatigue system that's in place is massive overkill it makes fights a lot of the time down to dumb luck. So I'd really love to see the following changes to certain weapons or I'd love to see select fire modes on guns that allow greater accuracy. My simple suggestions are the following and please bear in mind I'm not sure what type of measurement system the devs currently use for recoil, spread, and fatigue and breath so these percentages I'm gonna drop are just based off of what I've been feeling not the actual numbers involved.

 

AKM- Reduce the recoil by 35%, 40% with a 10% damage cut with a suppressor and bring the spread in by 20%, 25% with a suppressor, 

Ak-74- reduce the recoil by 25%, 30 with a 10% damage cut with a suppressor and also bring the spread in by 15% 20% with a suppressor

AKs-74u - same reductions as the 74 but naturally with a shorter range 

PM73 RAK- reduce recoil by 15% and bring the spread in by 20% 

 

Now lets discuss Scoped weapons and bolt action rifles, I love the new hunting scope system but, i do have a few complaints. I LOVE the Winchester Model 70 its one of the guns i learned to shoot on however the scoped in recoil on this gun is ridiculous (and yes i do accept and acknowledge that this is a brand new gun that will naturally see some changes hopefully this will be one of them.) when you fire a scoped rifle not only are you generally either prone, braced on an object or bipod most shooters generally prefer to wrap the gun strap around their other forearm to get the max they can for stability and accuracy, while the range and bullet drop on this weapon is beautiful and in my opinion spot on the recoil you experience after discharging a shot where you scope jerks 6 feet up and to the left once again leaves me with the feeling that my character is shooting the rifle with just one hand. I also have this same issue using the Pso, and the Kashtan scopes where as using the PU Scope i notice very minimal rifle jump or recoil. 

 

Now the last thing i wanted to talk about was a concept idea I've had that's twofold. I'm hoping to see in the future more interactive ways to use cover now before anyone jumps at me im not talking about the bromance wall bouncing that Gears of War has but a better more tactical usage of walls and structures to aid in combat on both first and third person. My second idea is a bracing system to allow us to rest weapons against windows walls the ground ect to increase accuracy. While i was thinking of this and im sure many many a Day Zer can relate everyone's been in a firefight where a teammate or yourself has gotten a broken leg and end up going prone covering an entry way or an area until someone can patch you up. What id love to see is the ability as an injured person to be able to brace against a wall sitting down with your back to it propping yourself up instead of being forced to be prone making you a bit more useful.

 

but anyways guys thats just my two cents opinions and ideas to those that read this i appreciate you all taking the time to the Devs that read it i really hope it gives you a few ideas or a few solutions to current problems and id love to hear peoples opinions players and devs alike on the subject keep on Surviving guys and remember

Better Hide yo Kids 

Better Hide yo Wives

cuz the Sand Paper Crusaders

are coming to make you

Sing for your life!

[Rags! 1966]

I haven't had an automatic rifle in my hands in ages. But I do recall that they seemed WAY too accurate when firing from the "hip".

[rybec 339]

AKM- Reduce the recoil by 35%, 40% with a 10% damage cut with a suppressor and bring the spread in by 20%, 25% with a suppressor, 

Ak-74- reduce the recoil by 25%, 30 with a 10% damage cut with a suppressor and also bring the spread in by 15% 20% with a suppressor

Now why should they do that? A suppressor doesn't make a bullet slow down, or make it weigh less.

7.62x39 is very controllable though. so I'm fine with lowering recoil.

[DarkenedxGospel 0]

When you use a a suppressor your generally using subsonic ammo which does slow down the velocity and penetration of bullets, so it just seems a fair off trade to having a suppressor attached 

[stielhandgranate 480]

When you use a a suppressor your generally using subsonic ammo which does slow down the velocity and penetration of bullets, so it just seems a fair off trade to having a suppressor attached 

 

There are no subsonic rounds in game except for .45 Auto. You can use regular rounds in a suppressor and still quiet the noise from a firearm being discharged. The whole suppressed firearms do less "damage" than non suppressed guns is heavily over exaggerated.

[-Gews- 7443]

There are no subsonic rounds in game except for .45 Auto. 

 

And now the SP-6.

[DarkenedxGospel 0]

10% isn't an over exaggeration tho especially for weapons with 30+ mags? its realistically fair especially considering a headshot is still instant death. Sub Sonic or not a suppressor is gonna chill and slow a bullets velocity so after x amount of ft it is gonna lose some of its penetration. 

[jayfkay (DayZ) 185]

reduce recoil by 40% on the akm? this is a terrible idea.

overall balance feels intuitive as is, the akm packs a punch but kicks like a horse, the m4 and aug are western "high tech" assault rifles with incredible accuracy but lesser "ppb" (power per bullet).

[stielhandgranate 480]

Sub Sonic or not a suppressor is gonna chill and slow a bullets velocity so after x amount of ft it is gonna lose some of its penetration. 

 

That isn't how a suppressor operates at all. In fact the baffles in a suppressor prevent gas pressure from escaping and help the round accelerate and can increase accuracy.

[OnionOfShame 138]

reduce recoil by 40% on the akm? this is a terrible idea.

overall balance feels intuitive as is, the akm packs a punch but kicks like a horse, the m4 and aug are western "high tech" assault rifles with incredible accuracy but lesser "ppb" (power per bullet).

5.56x45 rifles (M4, AUG, AK101) actually deal (slightly) more damage per shot than 7.62x39 ones (SKS, AKM, IZH-18, CR527). This is because the 5.56x45 cartridge is a more modern one and is designed to enhance bullet penetration and cause deeper wounds despite its smaller size. Several youtubers have tested this amd came to this conclusion, and some personal tests that I have can confirm it.

All of that being said, the AKM does kick like a horse in real life, and the 5.56x45 rounds also expel less energy as recoil force, so the recoil from 5.56x45 weapons should be easier to control than that of 7.62x39 weapons.

Edited July 2, 2015 by OnionOfShame

[pale1776 375]

Yeah the Winchester recoil is a bit odd, when I shoot at competitions the recoil jerks up, right, then I bring it back onto target as it falls naturally. At 600 yards you can fire and reacquire the target to watch the round strike if you know how to manage muzzle rise.

At 1000 you can grab a sandwich and take a piss before looking back to see it hit -Major jokes lol-

And a 5.56 has muzzle rise but NO MASSIVE RECOIL. When my dad was an assistant on the range, Soldiers would be scared of the recoil and noise. So he put the M4 on his balls and emptied a mag downrange lol. They have no RECOIL really, its like firing a double barrel .22.

Then again I may be a man, shooting over 10000 rounds through a Mosin toughens the shoulder :p

Edited July 2, 2015 by Owen.

[Xbow 362]

reduce recoil by 40% on the akm? this is a terrible idea.

overall balance feels intuitive as is, the akm packs a punch but kicks like a horse, the m4 and aug are western "high tech" assault rifles with incredible accuracy but lesser "ppb" (power per bullet).

The 7.62mm x 39mm cartridge (123 grain slug 2400fps) is packing about1,600 foot pound of energy at the muzzle while the 5.56mm x 45mm (62 grain slug 3100fps) generates1,300 foot pounds at the muzzle. Hence the AR-15 & STYER has 82% of the Muzzle energy that the AKM has. at the muzzle.  Neither Cartridge Kicks Like a Horse and yet the AKMs sights ARE displaced more than the AR-15s or Styer Aug but this is because the AK & AKM do not have a true straight line design. and the 7.62 x 39 loses velocity (and power) faster than the 5.56 x 45 and this is because the 5.56 x 45 SS109 (Boat tail slug) has a ballistic coefficient of 0.335 while the 7.62mm x 39's (123 grain flat base slug) has a ballistic coefficient of 0.310. At 500 yards the 5.56mm x 45mm Nato and the 7.62 x 39mm have almost exactly the same energy.   

[robophant 102]

I haven't had an automatic rifle in my hands in ages. But I do recall that they seemed WAY too accurate when firing from the "hip".

 

Hmmm i dunno....

 

When watching youtube vids where people just spray some AK rounds it looks pretty accurate. I think recoil, even when aiming down the sight, is way to high.

[Parazight 1599]

I know that after using the AUG in .57, you really don't want to use anything else as the muzzle rise in all AK variants is ridiculous, by comparison.

 

The other major problem is that the game is set up so that when you shoot a gun like the CR you can't keep your eye on your target at all.  You're forced into an animation and keeping track of your target realistically, or even authentically, is so unreasonable that it makes ballistics and comparison of weapons totally meaningless.

 

All the technical mumbo-jumbo is totally impractical 95% of the time as who sees who first is leaps and bounds more important than anything else.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Parazight

[rybec 339]

Hmmm i dunno....

 

When watching youtube vids where people just spray some AK rounds it looks pretty accurate. I think recoil, even when aiming down the sight, is way to high.

7.62x39 really is nothing. Maybe it'd be rough for a malnourished manlet, but it's nice enough you could start out on it instead of .22 for shooting.

[jayfkay (DayZ) 185]

After having tested the AKM plenty of tiems in current stable I take back my earlier statement, the recoil is definitely to high.

Strictly speaking in terms of gameplay balance, it makes sense for the AKM to have high recoil as else it would render the AR and Aug useless, but the current amount of recoil is too much.

 

[hekeetsu 86]

Everybody else is talking about guns but oh well. In the start you mentioned that the game has to be dumbed down to attract more customers. I would say that was the case with Arma 2 to Arma 3. But DayZ? Isn't this supposed to be the "anti-game" where everything is against you and there is no hand holding? Didn't Dean say it himself? I don't know about the recoil since I don't usually look for automatics but just had to say that.