Should guns spawn loaded?

[vfxtodd 125]

thanks mate - lovely to have a nice chat

 

Our "chats" would be nicer if you didn't live in a bubble while insulting your readers with unfounded garbage. Trying proofreading your words before hitting the "Post" button.

[pilgrim* 3514]

                      

 

 

some dude wants to know : " Why would you fire off all your ammo? "

Edited June 28, 2015 by pilgrim

[galekast 70]

When was the last apocalypse you survived in that involved people running into the streets chasing down "zombies"? 

 

Last Tuesday or Wednesday, I forget which day, it was difficult to say the least... I am surprised you didn't see it on the news..

[mercules 1290]

 

....thus had to make tough choice between shit rifle in hand with ammo and good rifle on the ground without one.

 

 

 

 

I think you just demonstrated why guns should not spawn with mags and ammo. The game should be about tough choices, it makes the game a better game. 

[BBow 25]

I think you just demonstrated why guns should not spawn with mags and ammo. The game should be about tough choices, it makes the game a better game. 

 

I second this, Making choices that could extend or end your life, having a shitty rifle with ammo or holding on to a good one without ammo and risk getting killed while looking for ammo. Atleast with a shitty rifle with ammo you could have a chance higher chance of survival.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Magestic

[vfxtodd 125]

I think you just demonstrated why guns should not spawn with mags and ammo. The game should be about tough choices, it makes the game a better game.

Huh? It makes no sense that you came to that conclusion.

So, you find a gun you don't like but it has ammo. That's proof that weapons shouldn't spawn with ammo? Wow. So, I have a plant in my house that dies. I guess I should never have another plant, eh?

[mercules 1290]

Huh? It makes no sense that you came to that conclusion.

So, you find a gun you don't like but it has ammo. That's proof that weapons shouldn't spawn with ammo? Wow. So, I have a plant in my house that dies. I guess I should never have another plant, eh?

 

It's basic game theory. Some weapons are better than others, this is just a fact and it comes from DayZ trying to be at least a bit realistic. Because of the way DayZ is you can't lock weapon and character progression behind something like a leveling system where more "powerful" guns are not available until the person has progressed to a certain stage. 

 

With a CLE though, what you can do is balance power via loot availability. Separating out guns spawning and ammo/mags spawning gives them even more leeway to balance out the power levels of guns. 

For example and AKM and SKS. They share ammo so we can ignore how common just plain old ammo for them is and look at the rest. SKS is valuable because it doesn't require a mag so you can find the gun, find the ammo, and you are good to go. Stripper clips are just bonus at that point. The AKM on the other hand is worse without a mag and BETTER with one. It's full auto with 30 shots available instead of ten before reloading once you have a mag but without it it is single shot and reload. This balances the AKM and SKS out. 

In the mod mags spawned with gun most of the time. What this meant is you could stockpile mags and ammo by simply going to where the gun spawned and taking just the mags from the spawn. I had HUNDREDS of mags for my preferred guns squirrelled away on some servers by simply running to where the gun spawns and grabbing the mags but leaving the guns. You would often "upgrade" while gearing up by simply finding a better gun because there was typically 2 mags laying right there with it and something like a DMR meant you had enough ammo to go for a pretty long time just from that one spawn. 

 

 

My whole point was that at least in SA you end up having to make choices. Say you are regearing. You have a shotgun with 3 shots left, an SKS you are just looking for ammo for, and you run into a crossbow in a deerstand knowing that the deerstand about 50 yards that way has 3 quivers in it. You can't double carry all three and the shotgun would help you deal with a player while the crossbow could quickly and quietly take down zombies. In the end you want the SKS because once you have ammo it will be more solid than the other two. So now you have to make a choice... this is a good thing. If the SKS came with a stripper clip and loaded with ammo there wouldn't have ever been a choice you would be using that and probably dropping the others. 

[vfxtodd 125]

It's basic game theory...

 

 

My whole point was that at least in SA you end up having to make choices. Say you are regearing. You have a shotgun with 3 shots left, an SKS you are just looking for ammo for, and you run into a crossbow in a deerstand knowing that the deerstand about 50 yards that way has 3 quivers in it. You can't double carry all three and the shotgun would help you deal with a player while the crossbow could quickly and quietly take down zombies. In the end you want the SKS because once you have ammo it will be more solid than the other two. So now you have to make a choice... this is a good thing. If the SKS came with a stripper clip and loaded with ammo there wouldn't have ever been a choice you would be using that and probably dropping the others.

I get it. That's a lot of writing, but it still doesn't support your premise. Sure there are weapons that are better then others. Yes, double carrying isn't necessarily the best choice to make. Regardless of your imaginary "basic game theory", there's no reason weapons in DayZ shouldn't spawn with some ammo occasionally or a partially filled clip on occasion. Most of the time, weapons are already spawning with no ammo at all. But, making that the norm doesn't even come close to being even slightly realistic.

[mercules 1290]

I get it. That's a lot of writing, but it still doesn't support your premise. Sure there are weapons that are better then others. Yes, double carrying isn't necessarily the best choice to make. Regardless of your imaginary "basic game theory", there's no reason weapons in DayZ shouldn't spawn with some ammo occasionally or a partially filled clip on occasion. Most of the time, weapons are already spawning with no ammo at all. But, making that the norm doesn't even come close to being even slightly realistic.

 

The reason why it is basic game theory is because it adds an additional control for the devs. If every AKM spawned with two mags like it typically would in the Mod you would never have much of a choice between using an SKS and an AKM, end of story. Even if the SKS spawned fully loaded with two extra clips to reload it with that would equal ONE mag with the AKM and it still wouldn't be a full auto gun that can take some nice scopes on it and other accessories. Ergo the SKS would only be a stopgap gun. As it is the SKS is a pretty solid gun as all you have to find is AMMO and you have a good solid gun that is better than an AKM until an AKM finds a mag which can be made very rare while the ammo remains uncommon. 

 

 

If every AKM dropped with 2 mags like it did in the mod what you would end up with is a single prison run giving a person a solid gun with at least 2 mags and likely 6-8 mags. As it is exists currently(well once guns start dropping there again) you might find multiple guns and multiple mags and have NONE of them match. 

This gives the SKS and similar guns a very nice niche to be in, where they are very useful even for an extended time. 

 

 

Which would you rather have:

 

• Blaze with ammo and a Hunting scope.
• SVD with no mag.

Technically they are almost the same. Blaze is slightly better, however once you find the SVD Mag it suddenly becomes a better gun.

 

This lends balance to the game and it's not even an artificial balance. I have at times had a rifle and shotgun stored in my house/apartment without ammo for either of them around simply because I haven't bought any recently and had shot all mine off. Sometimes that state has lasted for years as I haven't had time or inclination to go hunting or shooting. 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

there has just been a zombie apocalypse ... bad scene.

 

So any guns at all in this country will be lying out in the streets with the dead, eaten, chewed up bodies of the people who grabbed those guns when the zombies showed.

Because of course every available gun will have been picked up as soon as word came the zombies are here. Would anyone in YOUR village/block/workplace/ leave a gun and ammo lying around ? Seriously ?

And every bullet will have been fired before that dude dropped his gun and let himself get eaten.

 

I don't know anyone who would NOT grab up a gun when the zombies arrived in their region, AND I don't know anyone who wouldn't fire off all the ammo before they got ate.

Wouldn't you fight to the last shot ?

So why else would a gun be around if it wasn't empty, next to a dead body ?

 

just wondering

 

there has just been a zombie apocalypse ... bad scene.

 

So any guns at all in this country will be lying out in the streets with the dead, eaten, chewed up bodies of the people who grabbed those guns when the zombies showed.

Sure, you could have guns spawn by dead bodies, but I don't think "any guns at all in this country" is really reasonable, especially considering that Chernarus is full of guns sort of like the Czech Republic. There are a multitude of factors that could result in this happening.

 

Because of course every available gun will have been picked up as soon as word came the zombies are here. Would anyone in YOUR village/block/workplace/ leave a gun and ammo lying around ? Seriously ?

And every bullet will have been fired before that dude dropped his gun and let himself get eaten.

 

I don't know anyone who would NOT grab up a gun when the zombies arrived in their region, AND I don't know anyone who wouldn't fire off all the ammo before they got ate.

Wouldn't you fight to the last shot ?

So why else would a gun be around if it wasn't empty, next to a dead body ?

Every gun that's easily accessible - sure. Anyone with an extensive array of guns might not take them all with them if they leave, and plenty of people might have never made it to their guns before they were killed or ran off. Plus, we don't know how the apocalypse went down. If there was a quick and restricted evacuation of healthy folks where guns were not allowed then you'd obviously have plenty left behind while chaos spread, and even in cases where everyone just hunkered down I don't necessarily believe it was a massive war and everyone went down fighting.

 

The nature of the disease is also questionable as well - we know that the players in the game are immune to the zombie virus, but not the zombies themselves, so perhaps too many people got sick too quickly before they could try and fight back and there; you've got an explanation for why there are guns. And, of course, the time after the 'beginning' is never really known, so perhaps DayZ takes place in the early days/weeks/months after the disaster where you're still liable to have firearms and whatnot left around.

 

Yeah, I see the argument there for having guns spawning with dead bodies, but don't act like it's not an exaggeration when you say that "every" gun would end up like that, because it's just not true.

[vfxtodd 125]

The reason why it is basic game theory is because it adds an additional control for the devs. If every AKM spawned with two mags like it typically would in the Mod you would never have much of a choice between using an SKS and an AKM, end of story. Even if the SKS spawned fully loaded with two extra clips to reload it with that would equal ONE mag with the AKM and it still wouldn't be a full auto gun that can take some nice scopes on it and other accessories. Ergo the SKS would only be a stopgap gun. As it is the SKS is a pretty solid gun as all you have to find is AMMO and you have a good solid gun that is better than an AKM until an AKM finds a mag which can be made very rare while the ammo remains uncommon.

If every AKM dropped with 2 mags like it did in the mod what you would end up with is a single prison run giving a person a solid gun with at least 2 mags and likely 6-8 mags. As it is exists currently(well once guns start dropping there again) you might find multiple guns and multiple mags and have NONE of them match.

This gives the SKS and similar guns a very nice niche to be in, where they are very useful even for an extended time.

Which would you rather have:

• Blaze with ammo and a Hunting scope.
• SVD with no mag.

Technically they are almost the same. Blaze is slightly better, however once you find the SVD Mag it suddenly becomes a better gun.

This lends balance to the game and it's not even an artificial balance. I have at times had a rifle and shotgun stored in my house/apartment without ammo for either of them around simply because I haven't bought any recently and had shot all mine off. Sometimes that state has lasted for years as I haven't had time or inclination to go hunting or shooting.

I have yet to experience any of the situations you mention above involving guns spawning with multiple clips or excessive ammo, except in the rare loot explosions. I've had situations where I would be fortunate enough to come across a weapon and I find a few bullets. But, never multiple clips and tons of ammo. I'm happy finding ANY weapon much less some ammo. Comparing weapon quality is pointless. I might find a Shotgun but wish I found a Mosin. So, I hang onto the shotgun until I find a Mosin. Either way I'm armed. Chances are I'll find ammo for the shotgun before I find a Mosin. The bottom line is that I'm armed.

Your focusing on weapon quality is such a moot point, and it's never been an issue with me - ever. I'll keep playing DayZ without ever worrying about what weapons I find. Because ultimately I am able to arm myself quite well in DayZ regardless of the weapons I find.

Edited July 3, 2015 by BulletGarden

[mercules 1290]

I have yet to experience any of the situations you mention above involving guns spawning with multiple clips or excessive ammo, except in the rare loot explosions.

 

I prefaced all my comments with "In the Mod" which leads me to believe you have never played the Mod then, where ammo spawned WITH GUNS. Suffice it to say they learned from that and now ammo no longer spawns with the guns themselves. I was not talking about SA but the Mod where we were able to experience ammo nearly always spawning with guns. I used to pick up and move guns so that the spawn point would spawn another gun with MORE AMMO for it and stockpile enough rounds to shoot every tree on the server at least twice. :) That is what you are asking for, going BACKWARDs to the Mod. 

[sneakydudes 278]

lol you voting for vanilla, wont matter much when I and the others mod it...

[mercules 1290]

lol you voting for vanilla, wont matter much when I and the others mod ruin it...

 

There we go... more accurate reflection of what will occur. 

 

People adding easy mode mods into their own servers drug the Mod down, tripped it, kicked it for a bit, and left it a whimpering ball of crap. Don't get me wrong, some mods were awesome and I look forward to seeing those, but people adding in auto starting gear, 10,000 vehicles, tanks, military choppers, a hundred extra military gear spawns, and such ruined the game. 

 

"Well don't play on those servers." Great advise except in general people tend to want to take the easy way out and when they see they can start on this other server with an AK in their pocket and a huge backpack with enough food and drink to last for days and enough ammo to shoot everything that moves in Berezeno for the next 4 hours they will flock to that server in droves... then a month later complain about how stale DayZ is. Then come the tanks and choppers... then the complain about how stale it is... then comes a mission system with HUGE rewards which they flock to... and then complain about how stale DayZ is.

[vfxtodd 125]

I prefaced all my comments with "In the Mod" which leads me to believe you have never played the Mod then, where ammo spawned WITH GUNS. Suffice it to say they learned from that and now ammo no longer spawns with the guns themselves. I was not talking about SA but the Mod where we were able to experience ammo nearly always spawning with guns. I used to pick up and move guns so that the spawn point would spawn another gun with MORE AMMO for it and stockpile enough rounds to shoot every tree on the server at least twice. :) That is what you are asking for, going BACKWARDs to the Mod.

Going "backwards" is your opinion. I don't care about the mods. It doesn't matter what the mods had. We're talking about DayZ here. You're CHOOSING to include the mods in your reasoning though they are completely irrelevant. I still believe weapons should sometimes spawn with ammo and sometimes not. As the game is now, I never find ammo anywhere near its related weapon.

I'm looking for the best, most balanced experience in DayZ. I could care less what happened in the mods. If there are similarities in DayZ to past mods, that's life. Just because YOU may not like certain features in DayZ doesn't mean we're going backwards. That's just YOUR opinion. If your opinions really matter, you'll see them manifest in DayZ. Until then, play the game or do something else with your time. You're not helping anyone by comparing DayZ to past mods.

Edited July 3, 2015 by BulletGarden

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

 If there was a quick and restricted evacuation of healthy folks where guns were not allowed then you'd obviously have plenty left behind while chaos spread, and even in cases where everyone just hunkered down I don't necessarily believe it was a massive war and everyone went down fighting.

 

The nature of the disease is also questionable as well - we know that the players in the game are immune to the zombie virus, but not the zombies themselves, so perhaps too many people got sick too quickly before they could try and fight back and there; you've got an explanation for why there are guns

..//..

. And, of course, the time after the 'beginning' is never really known, so perhaps DayZ takes place in the early days/weeks/months after the disaster where you're still liable to have firearms and whatnot left around.

 

Yeah, I see the argument there for having guns spawning with dead bodies, but don't act like it's not an exaggeration when you say that "every" gun would end up like that, because it's just not true.

 

I still have the opinion that if the zombies were coming, every local gun owner would grab his gun and plenty of ammo - so whatever happened to that owner would happen to the gun too...

But sure - this is only a possible scenario out of several, I don't have a set view.

I think Mercules is on target saying the present setup is simply good for the gameplay, I'm happy to leave it at that.

 

Just for a historical background discussion - if "there was a quick and restricted evacuation of healthy folks" then we would find guns and ammo, and the cupboards stocked with food and goods, clothes in the wardrobes, and the cars parked outside the houses of owners who could afford them, tractors in the barns, beer on tap and bottles racked behind the bars, the shops full of goods .. etc.. And that would be the same if everyone somehow died or vanished without having time to get back to their home.

 

But if it's a mystery - and nobody can explain what happened to the population, then maybe nobody can explain what happened to the ammunition and mags either ?

 

Speaking only for myself, in any kind of life-threatening national crisis - zombies for instance- I'd do my best to get my family safe, and I'd totally definitely take all guns I had and the ammo with us. So whatever happened to me and the the family, that's what happened to the guns too. If I HAD to stay in the house, me and my old grandmother and the kids WOULD fight to the last bullet and then fight with axes afterwards.

I would NOT leave any firearms in the house if I left, I'd take them to provide me and mine with the best protection possible, and if I was told to evacuate unarmed I'd bury them out back somewhere, or hide them real fast if there was not more than a few minutes to do it.

 

still, I'm happy the way it is in SA now, and there are plenty of other strange things still unexplained, probably for ever

xx

Edited July 3, 2015 by pilgrim

[sai (DayZ) 137]

All loot should "spawn" in a realistic manner, that is what this game is going for right, half realism and half video game logic creates a frustrating mess. It should all be logical and realistic.

 

Guns should most of the time be in close proximity to their ammo type, that's how people store them. They should be hidden away very well, there are so many places you can hide guns and ammo. Most gun owners do not leave their gun/s out in the open, and they do not just own a gun with no ammo. The ammo as far as I'm aware is normally stored in a separate hiding place.

 

Sure some houses will have just ammo, or just a gun, the logic being someone took the gun or ammo, but to make that a common spawn state is unrealistic.

 

What should really be random is the map, it should be randomly generated, that way no one can just go on a website and look up spawn locations, or memorise it, every server would be different, different houses, landscape, items, etc. and of course a new character on every server. That fixes server hopping. 

 

But then nothing we say will change anything, this game is slooooowly getting better, but it's still a polished shit. 

[Ben_uk 24]

I think a bit of both. Make it random.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

still, I'm happy the way it is in SA now, and there are plenty of other strange things still unexplained, probably for ever

xx

I mean, I don't doubt that the first reaction of many people would be to go and grab their guns - I just took (slight) issue with the fact that you emphasized everyone, and the fact that there are nearly infinite scenarios for how guns could be left behind.

 

But I do agree that the way DayZ depicts the apocalypse isn't always 100% consistent, though it's got a good atmosphere and the way it is set up works well for gameplay. I think it'll be made even better when the CLE is working fully and all of the game's items are implemented, because they'll be able to balance it out and you won't be finding guns everywhere all willy nilly.

 

Also, you're right in that most guns should not spawn loaded - it's not unreasonable to suggest some might have an empty magazine or even a few rounds, but any guns that were being used would obviously have expended all ammunition possible and most people who store their guns keep ammunition separate. I like it the way it is because the majority of guns spawn default (no mags and regular attachment configuration when relevant) but you still have a small chance to find attachments or even ammunition, which makes the world feel more alive like the people before put time into their guns and whatnot.

[mercules 1290]

Going "backwards" is your opinion. I don't care about the mods. It doesn't matter what the mods had. We're talking about DayZ here. You're CHOOSING to include the mods in your reasoning though they are completely irrelevant. I still believe weapons should sometimes spawn with ammo and sometimes not. As the game is now, I never find ammo anywhere near its related weapon.

I'm looking for the best, most balanced experience in DayZ. I could care less what happened in the mods. If there are similarities in DayZ to past mods, that's life. Just because YOU may not like certain features in DayZ doesn't mean we're going backwards. That's just YOUR opinion. If your opinions really matter, you'll see them manifest in DayZ. Until then, play the game or do something else with your time. You're not helping anyone by comparing DayZ to past mods.

 

 

What? You want to ignore years worth of evidence. The vanilla DayZ experience in the past spawned guns with ammo, which is exactly what you are asking for. If the devs thought that was a good idea they would have retained, not changed that when t hey developed DayZ SA. I am not talking about player generated mods, but actual DayZ prior to it becoming SA. What happened during that is perfectly relevant to what happens in SA. 

 

It's not just similarities, DayZ was the foundation DayZ SA was built off of. When I speak of going backwards I am talking LITERALLY. The Devs developed DayZ SA and made certain design choices moving away from DayZ the ARMA II Mod such as "guns no longer spawning with ammo". the did so for a very good reason part of which I have explained to you. Having guns spawn with ammo would be going right back to the previous version(aka BACKWARDS) that they decided to change.

 

 

 

You go on to say you are looking for the best most balanced experience. I've explained why I believe guns not spawning with ammo is better and more balanced and you explanation why it is so far consists of, "I think it is." In my explanation I explained how it gives lower "tier" to moderate tier guns more of a purpose and makes the players have difficult choices when it comes to weapon choice. Your arguments so far have been based upon ignoring past evidence that doesn't fit with your view of what you want and ignoring game theory because against it doesn't fit with what you want. 

 

 

TLDR: The devs CHANGED it to guns not spawning with ammo for a reason let's not just willy nilly change it back without thinking it through because that is "what we want". 

[sneakydudes 278]

There we go... more accurate reflection of what will occur. 

 

People adding easy mode mods into their own servers drug the Mod down, tripped it, kicked it for a bit, and left it a whimpering ball of crap. Don't get me wrong, some mods were awesome and I look forward to seeing those, but people adding in auto starting gear, 10,000 vehicles, tanks, military choppers, a hundred extra military gear spawns, and such ruined the game. 

 

"Well don't play on those servers." Great advise except in general people tend to want to take the easy way out and when they see they can start on this other server with an AK in their pocket and a huge backpack with enough food and drink to last for days and enough ammo to shoot everything that moves in Berezeno for the next 4 hours they will flock to that server in droves... then a month later complain about how stale DayZ is. Then come the tanks and choppers... then the complain about how stale it is... then comes a mission system with HUGE rewards which they flock to... and then complain about how stale DayZ is.

enjoy it vanilla and if you don't like it, spend some of that money you have been hording away and host it your way. Its true you don't need to play those mods. Mods are intended for those that enjoy something different, not really easy mode. Sounds like mods ruined your experience, or was it you didn't have any friends to play along side? either way you make the game fun or not.

 

Having ammo with guns, well why cant it be stored in the same location as the gun itself like a shelf, not the physical floor.

[mercules 1290]

 Mods are intended for those that enjoy something different, not really easy mode.

 

I agree, but 90% of the modded servers out there for the original DayZ Mod turned it into Easy Mode. 

[OldManRiver (DayZ) 42]

I think there should be a rare chance that it spawns in loaded.  In most instances, a gun would be discarded because it was no longer useful to the owner and that is what we would usually find in this wasteland.  But occasionally, a survivor could be careless and lose a loaded gun by being killed or injured and needing to move from the area quickly.  Or the loaded gun may be in a house that hasn't already been looted by a survivor.  This would add "realsim", in the sense that in a post-apocolyptic world is unlikely that fully equipped and loaded guns will just be laying around.

[vfxtodd 125]

What? You want to ignore years worth of evidence. The vanilla DayZ experience in the past spawned guns with ammo, which is exactly what you are asking for. If the devs thought that was a good idea they would have retained, not changed that when t hey developed DayZ SA. I am not talking about player generated mods, but actual DayZ prior to it becoming SA. What happened during that is perfectly relevant to what happens in SA. 

 

It's not just similarities, DayZ was the foundation DayZ SA was built off of. When I speak of going backwards I am talking LITERALLY. The Devs developed DayZ SA and made certain design choices moving away from DayZ the ARMA II Mod such as "guns no longer spawning with ammo". the did so for a very good reason part of which I have explained to you. Having guns spawn with ammo would be going right back to the previous version(aka BACKWARDS) that they decided to change.

 

 

 

You go on to say you are looking for the best most balanced experience. I've explained why I believe guns not spawning with ammo is better and more balanced and you explanation why it is so far consists of, "I think it is." In my explanation I explained how it gives lower "tier" to moderate tier guns more of a purpose and makes the players have difficult choices when it comes to weapon choice. Your arguments so far have been based upon ignoring past evidence that doesn't fit with your view of what you want and ignoring game theory because against it doesn't fit with what you want. 

 

 

TLDR: The devs CHANGED it to guns not spawning with ammo for a reason let's not just willy nilly change it back without thinking it through because that is "what we want". 

 

"Your arguments so far have been based upon ignoring past evidence that doesn't fit with your view of what you want and ignoring game theory because against it doesn't fit with what you want."

 

You keep bringing up "game theory" in an obvious attempt to assign validity to your points of view. And points of views are just opinions. You say I'm ignoring your (imaginary) game theory because it "doesn't fit with what you want." When in fact, that's exactly what you're doing. Now you mention "past evidence". Past evidence from where? What past apocalypse have you survived to base your opinion/game theory on? The only "past experience" that's relevant to DayZ is that of an actual apocalypse. Since we have no real past apocalypse to base DayZ on, we have to tap from our imaginations. Which leads us right back to our opinions. 

 

The developers of DayZ are designing the game based on their opinions of what life in an infected post-apocalyptic world would be like. This bullshit game theory you keep digging up, like a dead body, has no relevance in a game that's being designed around an imaginary situation. Being an imaginary situation is a great setup, because it opens up the possibilities of what could happen in this imaginary situation. Choices are more vast and open as well. You use your "game theory" in an obvious effort to control the parameters of what you think should be considered for the world of DayZ. To suggest that I'm only interested in what I want is laughable, and just makes you look arrogant.

 

I'm here to share ideas like everyone else. However DayZ turns out, I'll have to adapt to whether I like it or not. I'm content to leave it up to the developers to how DayZ turns out. I think they're doing a great job so far. I don't need delusional concepts like "game theory" to consider what DayZ needs to become a good game.

Edited July 7, 2015 by BulletGarden

[mercules 1290]

You keep bringing up "game theory" in an obvious attempt to assign validity to your points of view.

There are multiple philosophies that study different areas of Game Theory. It's an actual thing. The more limited version of it is, "If we change this in DayZ what will be the likely outcome and how will players act based on that change." THAT is what I am talking about. It's a field of study that people use to explain economics, biologic influences on behaviour in animals, and obviously GAMES.

And points of views are just opinions. You say I'm ignoring your (imaginary) game theory because it "doesn't fit with what you want." When in fact, that's exactly what you're doing.

It's okay to be ignorant and not understand that game theory is a real thing. I'm not heavy into the serious side of it because frankly I consider many of the more practical applications of it boring as hell but it does use formal logics and I have studied a bit of that. On top of that I have worked with friends on alteration of game rules and helped with playtesting new rules for board games and RPGs for game designers. Game Theory is not imaginary.

Now you mention "past evidence". Past evidence from where? What past apocalypse have you survived to base your opinion/game theory on? The only "past experience" that's relevant to DayZ is that of an actual apocalypse. Since we have no real past apocalypse to base DayZ on, we have to tap from our imaginations. Which leads us right back to our opinions.

DayZ existed prior to DayZ SA. My past experience as to what happens in the DayZ game is from playing DAYZ. The DayZ Mod that DayZ SA is directly based off of had the systems that people are asking for. I can look at the past experiences in that mod and make well educated predictions on what player behavior will be if that system is brought forward into DayZ SA based on what the behavior was in the Mod.

In fact the reason it no longer works the way it did in the mod was to alter the behaviour in the game, so we would literally be going backwards to a behavior set the Devs tried to eliminate when they changed the way the game works. Mags used to spawn with guns in the Mod, they don't in the SA. Logical assumption since it isn't a coding issue preventing them from doing so is that they changed that to change the gameply experience. This assumption is backed up by the devs stating that as the reasoning behind doing so on several occasions in past interviews.

The developers of DayZ are designing the game based on their opinions of what life in an infected post-apocalyptic world would be like. This bullshit game theory you keep digging up, like a dead body, has no relevance in a game that's being designed around an imaginary situation.

Game Theory applies to EVERY game. The game is a partial simulation, but in the end it is a game and thus subject to certain tweeks to make it playable as a game and enjoyable. Because of that they look at the flow of a particular character's life when someone plays them. The see how the flow works from spawning all the way through to dying and try to make it a fun experience. That requires game theory which is used to decide things like how easily certain resources/assets are acquired.

Game theory is what is making them work with vehicles to break them into parts so that time and effort needs to be put into getting one running. At the same time that have to be certain that that effort is worth doing while balancing the rewards of having a running vehicle. If it took you on average 8 hours of playtime possible spread over multiple days to fix up a vehicle that was wrecked by a person with an ax while you were still driving it in one encounter it wouldn't be worth the effort so no one would attempt to gain that asset. This is the basics of Game Theory as it applies to games. At the same time if a vehicle was indestructible once fixed up it would be a huge asset to whomever could put in the time as they could then travel the map in relative safety. Game Theory shows there has to be a balance between the two. The asset has to be worth achieving without giving an undue advantage for the time invested in achieving it.

Being an imaginary situation is a great setup, because it opens up the possibilities of what could happen in this imaginary situation. Choices are more vast and open as well. You use your "game theory" in an obvious effort to control the parameters of what you think should be considered for the world of DayZ. To suggest that I'm only interested in what I want is laughable, and just makes you look arrogant.

Of course I look arrogant, people explaining concepts to the ignorant usually look a bit arrogant to the resistant ignorant. BTW, this ISN'T what I think a realistic situation should be. In my actual opinion as to if guns would be found with ammunition in a zombie apocalypse I believe it very likely that a rifle/pistol found in a closet in a house would probably have ammo stored somewhere within that house. However, this would not be a good thing for the game as it would not create the progression or scarcity of resources(bullets) the developers appear to want in their game by separating them from spawning with their assets(guns).

See, I am actually subsuming my personal opinion of a more realistic situation for an improved gameplay experience. I base this idea off of experiences in the DayZ Mod where guns spawned with multiple mags in the same location. It lead to gameplay that was less than satisfying(see that right there is an opinion, but one supported by the devs since they changed the mechanics to do away with that).

I'm here to share ideas like everyone else. However DayZ turns out, I'll have to adapt to whether I like it or not. I'm content to leave it up to the developers to how DayZ turns out. I think they're doing a great job so far. I don't need delusional concepts like "game theory" to consider what DayZ needs to become a good game.

Those delusional concepts are WHAT the developers are using to make sure DayZ turns out to be a fun and rewarding experience. Trust me, they think about them every day and you see the results when they do things like explain their ideas in posts like this:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/225839-status-report-09-jun-2015/?hl=%2Bcentral+%2Bloot+%2Beconomy

An excerpt from the post outlines them utilizing Game Theory and discussing player pathing and progression(all part of game theory):

Moving into DayZ as a standalone project, one of the first tasks undertaken was the decentralization of core resource (points of interest) buildings - and the expansion of Chernarus into a more robust and living world. Nearly every structure was made enter-able, and thus nearly every single building on the map was a potential (or group of potential) points for items to spawn. At first this might not seem like it should have a major impact on the design, and flow of player progression across the map - but when you look at the statistics, it is rather telling.

- In DayZ Mod, with vanilla Chernarus - Potential item spawn points number in the thousands (Sub 10k)

- In DayZ Chernarus + the potential locations for items to spawn exceeds 1 Million.

While the intent with DayZ as a finalized product is a higher player count (100+) than originally supported in DayZ Mod, the original spawning prototype system has several major glaring flaws compared against this intent. With basic control, we cannot effectively lay out a path of player progression across the world (without limiting the environment team to the placement of certain structure models *only* in certain regions). This is where the Central Economy Control comes into play - and will enable us to begin moving towards a path of progression that more resembles DayZ Mod - while still embracing the fleshing out of the world, and decentralization of points of interest.

While this system right now only controls the details listed above - the future iterations are aimed at allowing us the "next step" in the Central Loot Economy:

- Per building quantity controls (Min / Max / Nominal) allowing us to ensure an event spread across Chernarus, as well as to prioritize point-of-interest structures such as the Grocery Store, Medical Center, and so on

- Region control (Restricting item rarity levels to certain regions of the map)

Breaking Chernarus + into defined regions based upon item rarity and classification type is the first and most critical step into allowing us to layout a natural path of progression for players across the map - and begin to move us closer to that familiar and well known flow across DayZ Mod.

Game Theory at work ladies and gentlemen.