Does DayZ need aeiral transport?

[FlimFlamm 509]

Are you trying to imply that it is easy to pilot a helicopter or even that a regular person would even know how to take off in one ?

 

Piloting a helicopter is not something you pass on via word of mouth, it requires thousands of hours of flight time with an instructor to even begin to feel competent , then that is met with tons and tons of hours in a simulator.

 

Helicopter and airplane training is so expensive and insane that the Government was forced to change how the gi bill gives money to Veterans when it comes to schooling due to veterans taking helicopter classes were hemorrhaging money.

 

I never implied that it is easy, I Implied that it is possible.

 

Thousands of hours in flight sims is a great learning tool but it is also possible to fly helicopters with on the job training. That said, not every helicopter is as complicated as the next. I have personally put thousands of hours into flying planes of all kinds in realistic flight simulators. Should this not mean that it is in fact plausible that I, a normal non pilot citizen, could fly a plane?

 

The rigor and expense of pilot training is to ensure that pilots are absolutely competent before they are allowed to fly alone or carry passengers. It's possible to do a successful take off and landing with one day of actual training, we just don't let people do it because we're all about safety.

 

It might not be safe to let inexperienced pilots fly (and in DayZ it shouldn't be either), but it beats getting attacked by zombies or killed by ground crews.

[gibonez 3633]

I never implied that it is easy, I Implied that it is possible.

 

Thousands of hours in flight sims is a great learning tool but it is also possible to fly helicopters with on the job training. That said, not every helicopter is as complicated as the next. I have personally put thousands of hours into flying planes of all kinds in realistic flight simulators. Should this not mean that it is in fact plausible that I, a normal non pilot citizen, could fly a plane?

 

The rigor and expense of pilot training is to ensure that pilots are absolutely competent before they are allowed to fly alone or carry passengers. It's possible to do a successful take off and landing with one day of actual training, we just don't let people do it because we're all about safety.

 

It might not be safe to let inexperienced pilots fly (and in DayZ it shouldn't be either), but it beats getting attacked by zombies or killed by ground crews.

 

It simply does not work that way.

 

Training a pilot is not something you can just teach it requires alot of time, good instruction and resources.

 

Look a isis they have captured dozens of helicopters and jets since the Syrian civil was started years ago including a blackhawk. Want to know how many helos they have on the air ?

 

ZERO they have tried everything they could from hiring people to teach them to fly to using simulators and guess what it just did not work out for them and were never able to get the helos off the ground.

 

This is ISIS we are talking about a large scale wealthy, terrorist organization. What chances do you think a bunch of ordinary citizens with no military experience and no resources would have.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I never implied that it is easy, I Implied that it is possible.

Thousands of hours in flight sims is a great learning tool but it is also possible to fly helicopters with on the job training. That said, not every helicopter is as complicated as the next. I have personally put thousands of hours into flying planes of all kinds in realistic flight simulators. Should this not mean that it is in fact plausible that I, a normal non pilot citizen, could fly a plane?

The rigor and expense of pilot training is to ensure that pilots are absolutely competent before they are allowed to fly alone or carry passengers. It's possible to do a successful take off and landing with one day of actual training, we just don't let people do it because we're all about safety.

It might not be safe to let inexperienced pilots fly (and in DayZ it shouldn't be either), but it beats getting attacked by zombies or killed by ground crews.

Microsoft Flight Simulator =/= actual flight training...

You guys have already won the thread. Aerial transportation will be in DayZ. However, you're not going to win the argument that people can learn to fly planes and choppers by just jumping in one of the aforementioned and fiddling around. That's all I've been saying since I began posting ITT.

[J4G 92]

Ok fine then.

 

Let's duplicate that via randomized spawning in game. When you spawn you have a .05 percent chance of having a character that can pilot a helo. That percentage is also probably really really generous.

 

 

 

So, let us do some quick math to determine the statistical likelihood of this

...

 

TL;DR. The likelihood of there being a pilot amongst the current playerbase of Chernarus is really, REALLY REALLY low.

 

Based on math, we have two choices here. Its going to be devs that can put TOH kind of mechanics in game, or modders who import mechanics from arma.

Theres huge difference IMO.

 

And what comes to random character lottery... Rly, are you really sure that we want that kind of thing in this game?

[surf_polar 110]

Not even talking how silly it is that people want aerial vehicles when the more pressing issues ingame are to reach the next town alive and maybe find some food, what good would say, a chopper, be anyway?

So you can travel faster to point xy, which you can already do much easier with a ground vehice except maybe for the prison island? THAT is worth destroying the mood of the game and escalating weaponry just to be able to shoot down that bird?

I dont see any reason why this should be ingame.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Based on math, we have two choices here. Its going to be devs that can put TOH kind of mechanics in game, or modders who import mechanics from arma.

Theres huge difference IMO.

 

And what comes to random character lottery... Rly, are you really sure that we want that kind of thing in this game?

I was not referring to "random character lottery", just to how rare an actual pilot would be amongst the survivors in Chernarus.

 

50 people "alive", out of 100,000+. The likelihood of you being any specific career, like a teacher or factory-worker, much less something esoteric like a pilot, are "statistically extremely improbable".

[Whyherro123 2283]

Not even talking how silly it is that people want aerial vehicles when the more pressing issues ingame are to reach the next town alive and maybe find some food, what good would say, a chopper, be anyway?

So you can travel faster to point xy, which you can already do much easier with a ground vehice except maybe for the prison island? THAT is worth destroying the mood of the game and escalating weaponry just to be able to shoot down that bird?

I dont see any reason why this should be ingame.

Not to mention burning precious fuel and oil, and you can't really carry all that much stuff with you in a single engine plane.

 

Most "effective" (in terms of weight carried vs energy consumed) hand-powered vehicle: the bicycle

 

Most "effective" ground vehicle: a train, but realistically, a truck of some sort, like the cargo-bed V3S

 

Not listed: a plane or helicopter

[xalienax 621]

I was not referring to "random character lottery", just to how rare an actual pilot would be amongst the survivors in Chernarus.

 

50 people "alive", out of 100,000+. The likelihood of you being any specific career, like a teacher or factory-worker, much less something esoteric like a pilot, are "statistically extremely improbable".

IMHO the best path is difficult handling that requires a general degree of understanding from the player. Let me decide my own fate through knowledge and individual skill, not have the game or for that matter the devs tell me what i was before the outbreak. If they are going to tell me what my avatar does/doesn't know based on some assumption that im 'Joe knowsnothing smith' then i also demand they give us lore, a timeline, and a reason why everything is the way it is. stop cherry picking. 

[FlimFlamm 509]

It simply does not work that way.

 

Training a pilot is not something you can just teach it requires alot of time, good instruction and resources.

 

Look a isis they have captured dozens of helicopters and jets since the Syrian civil was started years ago including a blackhawk. Want to know how many helos they have on the air ?

 

ZERO they have tried everything they could from hiring people to teach them to fly to using simulators and guess what it just did not work out for them and were never able to get the helos off the ground.

 

This is ISIS we are talking about a large scale wealthy, terrorist organization. What chances do you think a bunch of ordinary citizens with no military experience and no resources would have.

 

OK so if you have ever seen the inside of a regular helicopter, and a military helicopter you would know that the two are basically not comparable in terms of flight difficulty.

 

First of all, jets are a kind of aircraft in a class all of their own, nobody wants jets, so don't mention them as a part of your argument.

 

Military helicopters compared to civilian ones have so many extra functions that it doesn't surprise me that ISIS cannot fly them. You've got guns to worry about, missiles, flares, all kinds of sensitive trageting, advanced navigation, communication, and more. A civilian helicopter, a smaller helicopter, is much easier to fly. Less buttons, more straight forward.

 

If you think none of the ISIS militants know how to fly a helicopter at all (instead of not knowing how to fly advancd american military jets and attack helis) then you are being quite foolish.

Edited April 13, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[FlimFlamm 509]

Microsoft Flight Simulator =/= actual flight training...

You guys have already won the thread. Aerial transportation will be in DayZ. However, you're not going to win the argument that people can learn to fly planes and choppers by just jumping in one of the aforementioned and fiddling around. That's all I've been saying since I began posting ITT.

 

You can learn by jumping in the cockpit with someone who knows how to fly, and then they can give you on the spot training. the more complex the controls the longer it takes to learn, but it is possible.

[FlimFlamm 509]

Not even talking how silly it is that people want aerial vehicles when the more pressing issues ingame are to reach the next town alive and maybe find some food, what good would say, a chopper, be anyway?

So you can travel faster to point xy, which you can already do much easier with a ground vehice except maybe for the prison island? THAT is worth destroying the mood of the game and escalating weaponry just to be able to shoot down that bird?

I dont see any reason why this should be ingame.

 

An AKM with a 75 round drum mag is quite powerful. Any aircraft that get added in should be able to be taken out by this gun.

 

The game of DayZ might be about making it to the next town when you are freshly spawned and on the coast, but if the game is about endless survival by traveling from town to town with no ability to progress or improve your situation then there is no real point in playing.

[gibonez 3633]

OK so if you have ever seen the inside of a regular helicopter, and a military helicopter you would know that the two are basically not comparable in terms of flight difficulty.

 

First of all, jets are a kind of aircraft in a class all of their own, nobody wants jets, so don't mention them as a part of your argument.

 

Military helicopters compared to civilian ones have so many extra functions that it doesn't surprise me that ISIS cannot fly them. You've got guns to worry about, missiles, flares, all kinds of sensitive trageting, advanced navigation, communication, and more. A civilian helicopter, a smaller helicopter, is much easier to fly. Less buttons, more straight forward.

 

If you think none of the ISIS militants know how to fly a helicopter at all (instead of not knowing how to fly advancd american military jets and attack helis) then you are being quite foolish.

 

They cant even fly them period. Not talking about using the weapons systems or radar systems on a helo.

 

Military or civilian helo it does not matter they all fly with the same concept of rotary flight. It is simply not something that any regular person can pick up it requires extensive training.

[Katana67 2907]

Devs already said they are ordinary people ordinary survivors with no military training, they are not avatars or whatever you want to make them.

 

Aaaand being a survivor, whatever is meant by that apples to orange equation (a survivor can be trained by the military, or not), entails surviving... namely being competent at operating in an environment so one doesn't die. Where that competency is derived from doesn't matter. So what're we left with? Nameless vessels that we manipulate in the game world.

 

They are avatars, how the developers aesthetically depict these avatars (i.e. what animations they chose, which is the actual context in which that comment was said) is irrelevant to the fact that the skeletons we occupy have no backstory whatsoever. At all.

 

The developers also said there'd be helicopters in the game, so I guess we shouldn't be having this conversation??

Edited April 13, 2015 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

Aaaand being a survivor, whatever is meant by that apples to orange equation (a survivor can be trained by the military, or not),

 

 

 

 

ummm

 

 

So no military training as a soldier or not.

 

I do know you are right that Helos were confirmed a while back but like all things this early in the game they are subject to change. I am hoping the devs saw the communities hesitation to military items and helicopters in particular and might have decided against including them.

 

The devs have a golden chance to create a unique game something that is like nothing out in the market, not including helicopters and thus further separating Arma from Dayz would be the right approach imo.

[Katana67 2907]

I do know you are right that Helos were confirmed a while back but like all things this early in the game they are subject to change. I am hoping the devs saw the communities hesitation to military items and helicopters in particular and might have decided against including them.

 

The devs have a golden chance to create a unique game something that is like nothing out in the market, not including helicopters and thus further separating Arma from Dayz would be the right approach imo.

 

Survivor = blank slate with no background at all. Military trained = background already assigned to the character/avatar. Not sure why this is difficult, and you're proving me right by the way.

 

Our characters are generic "survivors." They're not buffoons. They're not SFOD-D operators.

 

And the above, off-the-cuff, in the context solely of animation aesthetics, comment can surely be tweaked/reversed/augmented as well! I'd put my money on that, over them scrapping something that's a supported development objective.

 

I can see you haven't changed much.

 

Guilting those who don't agree with your, subjective, idea of what DayZ "should be" by hinting at a supposed "missed opportunity" as if helicopters are the only, or even a significant, indicator of uniqueness. Still speaking for the "community" somehow too (even though, correct me if I'm wrong, roughly 2/3 of those who voted wanted aircraft of some type in the game). Disregarding the loved, successful, and legitimate mod as nothing but a military simulator with zombies.

[FlimFlamm 509]

They cant even fly them period. Not talking about using the weapons systems or radar systems on a helo.

 

Military or civilian helo it does not matter they all fly with the same concept of rotary flight. It is simply not something that any regular person can pick up it requires extensive training.

 

You're so wrong it's ridiculous. A large chunk of ISIS are corrupt ex soldiers and officers of saddams old army. Many of them have all kinds of miltiary training and some pilot training. Flying helicopters isn't some impossible task that only grand master pilots can attempt. No ISI soldier has been trained on anything nearly as complicated as a black hawk. There is no point in flying a black hawk at all unless you know how to actually use it to attack, from a tactical perspective.  A civilian helicopter can be flown by reading the manual. You might crash, but that's fine. The manual of a black hawk would probably ten times as large and complicated as civvie helo, and also secret technology that only the richest of nations have been able to afford. The iraq army flew mig jets and bell/MI type helos, which pale in technological complexity compared to a black hawk.

 

Your notion that flying even a civilian helicopter is so difficult that not even ISIS could do it is so completely ridiculous that it strains my ability to believe you aren't being disengenuous. :)

 

You either severely over estimate the complexity of small/older/simple helicopters, or, severely underestimate the complexity of a black hawk military attack helo.

 

The concept of 'rotary flight' isn't some extremely complicated thing to understand. You have a throttle and a joystick which controls pitch, yaw and tail rotor (equivalent to rudder). Those are the two main controls that you need to take off, land, and fly around.

 

People fly quadcopter drones all the time rotary; flight is simpler to do (and easier) than fixed wing flight (don't believe me? you ever fly planes in DayZ mod? You ever see people always crash and fail miserably? compared to the ease of helicopter flight?). The mechanics of the aircraft being more complex (rotary flight compared to lift generating wings/planes) doesn't mean at all that it is more difficult to fly.

Edited April 14, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[gibonez 3633]

 A civilian helicopter can be flown by reading the manual. You might crash, but that's fine.

 

More like you will crash.

 

[FlimFlamm 509]

ummm

 

 

So no military training as a soldier or not.

 

I do know you are right that Helos were confirmed a while back but like all things this early in the game they are subject to change. I am hoping the devs saw the communities hesitation to military items and helicopters in particular and might have decided against including them.

 

The devs have a golden chance to create a unique game something that is like nothing out in the market, not including helicopters and thus further separating Arma from Dayz would be the right approach imo.

 

Further separating from the arma mod dayz? Or becoming less of a game?

 

The removal of content isn't a sound strategy, and there is no reason why military helicopters need to be carried over into the standalone; they won't be. Your realism fidelity argument needs to be improved. I think you should lobby for very restrictive and simple types of aircraft as opposed to relying on an argument that usues faulty premises (we're all ignorant survivors with no skills of any kind) and a game play argument that nobody has actually properly fleshed out yet (aircraft will ruin the gameplay experience).

[FlimFlamm 509]

More like you will crash.

 

 

Oh man, this one video is 100% evidence... Obviously a man who buys a heli, gets in and hits the throttle like a bat out of hell is so stupid that he represents the lowest of the human range of intellect. Darwin would give this man an award.

'

Here is a far russian dude taking the sensible approach, and learning to hover at low altitude: IN A COMPLETELY HOME MADE SHITTY LOOKING MOZZIE MUAHAHAHAH

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[gibonez 3633]

Ok see that I can believe.

 

Home made mozzies using frames from bicycles, a small motorcycle engine and various other tools that is relatively believable.

 

I just don't buy the whole random survivors all somehow knowing to pilot million dollar rotary flight machines.

 

Mozzie in particular could be homage to one of the pioneer post apocalyptic movies.

 

[BeefBacon 1185]

Hopped in a helicopter training simulator a few years ago. Had a helicopter interior, hydraulics to simulate banking, the whole shabang. Wasn't difficult. Of course I didn't need to worry about pre flight checks, and I imagine the startup sequence was simplified, but actually flying a helicopter isn't something that requires that you be taught from birth. Pretty sure I landed it as well.

I'd like to see helicopters. They shouldn't be especially tough, and certainly shouldn't be gunships, but I think they'd add a lot to the game.

[tuthmes 49]

I would not mind NASA dropping us some supplies / from the moon =P

 

From time to time, would be nice to see something in the sky that's random and you gotta make a choice,      go after it  / ignore it / go hunt people that may have seen it......

 

 

Coast drops few / mid land fewer / north and far west super rare =)

 

 

Meh I digress

 

 

Hunt Well

 

TuT

[FlimFlamm 509]

Here is a compilation of the very best and relevant videos and pictures of aircraft variants that I think would be perfectly suited to DayZ from almost everyones point of view.

 

The first if the Mozzie, I've posted this video elsewhere but i might as well post it again:

 

Here is a relatively similar looking but in fact quite different aircraft  most of us are familliar with, the Auto Gyro :

 

 

Here is what the auto gyro can do.

 

When it comes to planes, I am still willing to make any percieved sacrifices to realism in order to get an aircraft that can actually transport some kind of load or more than one person:

 

 

This is a homemade ww1 style bi plane. It is painted wood with some metal and wire for structure and controls. This is the sort of plane that I would have buildable by players at the appropriate cost of time and resources. I would also suggest at least one helicopter that also can carry more than one person. I know in the eyes of many people it strains realism, but the functionality and enjoyability /end game altering aspect that multi-person air transport gives is a benefit that cannot be understated. I would however make it quite restricted and as improvised as possible. with any luck, we could get something like this by christmas! :

Edited April 14, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[FlimFlamm 509]

Or we could go real OG (it's even easier with modern engines):

 

Wood, wires, and a wee bit of metal tubing + engine = CAMEL

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[Whyherro123 2283]

-snip-

No, to almost all of the above.

 

In my opinion, it is "bad enough" that we will be able to repair aircraft and vehicles by simply replacing parts. You just know that people will be serverhopping for said parts, and as such, the whole "vehicles" thing will go tits up.

 

We should not, in any way shape or form, be able to build completely new vehicles, much less aircraft. They spawn in broken, we fix them, and that is that. Elsewise anyone and their mother, given enough time, could build a truck/aircraft, which takes away the entire purpose of them being rare in the first place.

 

Note: Hicks, the leader developer, holds the opinion that there should only be 10 to 20 vehicles on an official server, with 10 being his preference. Thank God.

 

A nice quote: "there should be enough so that not just one group could lock down these vehicles so that other people can't experience them, but they should be rare enough that it feels like you have found the Holy Grail of DayZ when you come across one, you wanna wake up your friends, pop into TeamSpeak, get everyone on the server - "Oh my God, I found the V3S!" - But again that's just my opinion.

 

As in, he wants the V3S to be an awesome find and noteworthy find, not people running around building Autogyros from spare parts for shits and giggles.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/2iax7g/hicks_opinion_no_more_than_10_vehicles_on_an/

 

There are a lot of good quotes on there, and he and I apparently hold almost the exact same opinion concerning vehicles and their effect on gameplay.

 

I, for one, would rather see more (working) bicycles than trucks, and more trucks than aircraft. You can easily repair a bicycle, jury-rig an attachment for additional seating or for pulling a cart, can repair/replace the majority of the frame with wood and other materials (tires, mostly, can be made from rope or wood), and requires no petroleum-based fuels for propulsion.

 

Hell, even if the devs make the actual parts for vehicles common, the fuel should be the limiting factor. Remember, there is no outside trade bringing in new gasoline/diesel, so the "native supply" left in Chernarus would run out pretty quickly. You can run a diesel engine off of ethanol (literally moonshine) with the proper filter, but I can think of several probably-more-important uses for that fuel (medical disinfectant, tractor fuel, generator fuel) than straight vehicle use, and if a clan has a large enough farm to produce enough ethanol to fuel all the generators they need, keep the tractors running, AND have enough fuel for ground-based vehicles and aircraft, they are doing well enough to be able to say "Welp, we've won Day Z. We've "beat" this survival game"

 

Which should be the end-goal, but extremely difficult to attain. You've essentially rebuilt society at that point.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Whyherro123