A player ran in game economy.

[demoore 15]

Ok guys I want some opinions on what you think a player run economy should look like.

To begin paper money is stupid and no one should suggest it. IRL paper money is referred to as Fiat money or faith money. As in you have to have faith that it will be worth something because it has no intrinsic value.

Gold and Silver were money so often because they held the characteristics that make a good currency.

• They have their own value
• They are small and divideable
• They are relatively rare

Now my suggestions are either canned goods, rags, or bullets but I will give pros and cons for each.

1. Canned Goods are of constant value because you constantly are getting hungry.

1. Canned Goods are not good because they are not stackable and thus hard to carry.

2. Rags are good because they are stackable and carry the healing quality value.

2. Rags are not good because because they are too easy to find.

3. Bullets are good because of the intrinsic value of self-protection and the limited supply.

3. Bullets are not good because of the variety of guns and bullets makes them not generally accepted.

Obviously the simplest answer is bartering, the struggle with bartering is the double coincidence of wants. If I want something you have then you have to want something I have. These chances are lower than than the chances of you wanting my currency, which is generally accepted.

 

[Edit] As some people have caught on the intent here is not to do away with bartering. It is to find a currency at which one could value other items to facilitate bartering. Bartering works but the problems you run in to is, how many bullets is a fireman axe worth, or how many baked beans is a Mosin worth? Just wanted to get some opinions and thank you or the feedback I have gotten already.

 

[Edit] Thanks for the feedback. There seems to be a consensus on the infeasibility of a player economy at this point in the game. I started a new thread about trade etiquette. Keep this discussion going or join in the new one. (Here's the link http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/222051-bartering-etiquette/)

Edited March 9, 2015 by demoore

[HeXedMinD (DayZ) 39]

I feel the game leans more towards a bartering economy if any. You and the person would need trade items you find valuable.

[WolfgangErikson 127]

I feel the game leans more towards a bartering economy if any. You and the person would need trade items you find valuable.

This. Only what is valuable will be used as currency. If I don't think it's valuable to me or someone else, I won't carry it. This all has to do with supply and demand in the game economy and will develop naturally. For example, currently Netting and other rare items are considered more valuable.

 

The only way I see some other object being used as fiat currency would be if a large group was able to develop, maintain and enforce a safe trading post that saw a lot of traffic. I only see this ever happening on private or role-play servers. Even if a fiat currency did emerge on these servers, the likelyhood of the currency item itself being used in sales would be pretty slim; most likely objects would just be valued in relation to that currency and bartered accordingly. "That Mountain backback is worth 90 matches. Since hatchets are worth 60 matches, I'll give it to you if you for two hatchets. No change."

[demoore 15]

This. Only what is valuable will be used as currency. If I don't think it's valuable to me or someone else, I won't carry it. This all has to do with supply and demand in the game economy and will develop naturally. For example, currently Netting and other rare items are considered more valuable.

 

The only way I see some other object being used as fiat currency would be if a large group was able to develop, maintain and enforce a safe trading post that saw a lot of traffic. I only see this ever happening on private or role-play servers. Even if a fiat currency did emerge on these servers, the likelyhood of the currency item itself being used in sales would be pretty slim; most likely objects would just be valued in relation to that currency and bartered accordingly. "That Mountain backback is worth 90 matches. Since hatchets are worth 60 matches, I'll give it to you if you for two hatchets. No change."

Exactly. The object of this post was to agree on a currency at which we could value other items. Like obviously every survivor in Chernous should be able to tell what is valuable but I would love to compile a list of items and their values as compared to a flat money system. 

 

For example.

 

A raincoat in pristine condition is worth 5 canned foods.

Boots in pristine condition is worth 3 canned foods. 

Firefigher Axe Pristine condition is worth 45 canned foods.

 

Something along these lines to help with bartering. 

[WolfgangErikson 127]

Exactly. The object of this post was to agree on a currency at which we could value other items. Like obviously every survivor in Chernous should be able to tell what is valuable but I would love to compile a list of items and their values as compared to a flat money system. 

 

For example.

 

A raincoat in pristine condition is worth 5 canned foods.

Boots in pristine condition is worth 3 canned foods. 

Firefigher Axe Pristine condition is worth 45 canned foods.

 

Something along these lines to help with bartering. 

 

I think it's silly to think of it unless you are operating a trading post. This currency would develop through daily trades of small number of people to a very large number of people. I isn't very easy to just speculate on item values; it can really only be determined through action and experimentation. And again, this won't happen and I certainly would never base a trade on any currency in the game unless it was with a dedicated trader who isn't open to much negotiation because he has already determined the values that he thinks things have, and likely has a very large supply and can afford to make these determinations in order to maintain his stock. 

 

For everyday trades between survivors, there is no need for this. Coming up with some arbitrary values for items is pointless for most people, and will not help with trading in any way. Value in most instances is determined by circumstance.

Edited March 6, 2015 by WolfgangErikson

[Wookieenoob 191]

as a note, canned goods are far too rare to be used as currency. or they will be. current canned goods spawns = placeholders

 

 

 

burlap sacks and nets are the best currency. (full stack trades to pretty much 1 of any item)

 

protector cases = any item

 

 

 

 

 

gold/minerals would have 0 value to players unless you could make a golden throne for yourself. for all intents and purposes protector cases are gold. you can litterally barter the clothes of a players back and half his junk for one sometimes. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Wookieenoob

[demoore 15]

I think it's silly to think of it unless you are operating a trading post. This currency would develop through daily trades of small number of people to a very large number of people. I isn't very easy to just speculate on item values; it can really only be determined through action and experimentation. And again, this won't happen and I certainly would never base a trade on any currency in the game unless it was with a dedicated trader who isn't open to much negotiation because he has already determined the values that he thinks things have. 

 

For everyday trades between survivors, there is no need for this. Coming up with some arbitrary values for items is pointless for most people, and will not help with trading in any way. Value in most instances is determined by circumstance.

I definitely appreciate all the feedback. At the core of it I believe that this game could see some cool player ran trading and I'm only trying to take the first steps towards facilitating this. With the implementation of persistence and the tweaks they are making to the spawning rate. Some items will change in value. No item ever has a concrete value in a living economy. But you have to set the price somewhere. That's why I was reaching out to the community to find the opinions of others about these values. Obviously this is all silly but I really enjoy the economics of games.

[demoore 15]

as a note, canned goods are far too rare to be used as currency. or they will be. current canned goods spawns = placeholders

 

 

 

burlap sacks and nets are the best currency. (full stack trades to pretty much 1 of any item)

 

protector cases = any item

 

 

 

 

 

gold/minerals would have 0 value to players unless you could make a golden throne for yourself. for all intents and purposes protector cases are gold. you can litterally barter the clothes of a players back and half his junk for one sometimes. 

The only problem with something as valuable as a case protector is how undividable it is. It's a lot like a horse, Obviously worth a lot but you couldn't buy a loaf of bread with it. Never thought of burlap sacks though. Please elaborate more on you think they are the best.

Edited March 6, 2015 by demoore

[Wookieenoob 191]

I definitely appreciate all the feedback. At the core of it I believe that this game could see some cool player ran trading and I'm only trying to take the first steps towards facilitating this. With the implementation of persistence and the tweaks they are making to the spawning rate. Some items will change in value. No item ever has a concrete value in a living economy. But you have to set the price somewhere. That's why I was reaching out to the community to find the opinions of others about these values. Obviously this is all silly but I really enjoy the economics of games.

 

unless there's some form of weird artificial system for safezones that kind of breaks immersion it's all always going to be hit-and-miss anyway

 

 

 

 

@burlap sacks / nets

 

 

both are items every player kind of wants. anyone can get a head ghillie without sacrificing space, as well as weapon ghillie.

 

the items are rare or hard to get in large stacks, as well as being harder to farm by server hopping. 

 

they stack to 10 + 4

 

1 set is 14 items (4 nets 10 sacks) and is very dividable. 

 

they are the only stackable item that players want / need that does not come readily stacked (except for nets) 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Wookieenoob

[WolfgangErikson 127]

I definitely appreciate all the feedback. At the core of it I believe that this game could see some cool player ran trading and I'm only trying to take the first steps towards facilitating this. With the implementation of persistence and the tweaks they are making to the spawning rate. Some items will change in value. No item ever has a concrete value in a living economy. But you have to set the price somewhere. That's why I was reaching out to the community to find the opinions of others about these values. Obviously this is all silly but I really enjoy the economics of games.

 

Kudos then. I could tell from that last part of your initial post that you had a firm grasp on the relevance of creating a pricing structure.

 

If you really want to move towards doing this, I would recommend looking up the loot tables and spawn rates of all the items. You could then assign them values based on how rare they are (similar items would be grouped together: food items, etc.). That would be the best starting place.

 

I would recommend as a "base" currency item, something that is relatively rare, somewhat useful, and variable in it's quantity: Matches. Matches are quite rare and can be found with anywhere between 0 and 250 in a box (two bad you cant split or combine them). They are useful, but usually not essential to have a lot.  Once you determine the rarity of your "currency" item with relation to the rest of the items, you should be on the right track.

Edited March 6, 2015 by WolfgangErikson

[demoore 15]

unless there's some form of weird artificial system for safezones that kind of breaks immersion it's all always going to be hit-and-miss anyway

Safezones just become hunting grounds for bandits anyways haha. I like the idea of a hit and miss economy. The danger is what adds value to trades. That's why way it works in Eve from my understanding.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Canned food will (eventually) become more rare. That, coupled with a "food degradation" (read: rotting over time if not preserved), could lead to canned food becoming valuable. However, preserved food (smoked meats, dried vegetables, etc) would also be valuable

 

Rags....not so much. Anybody can make a shit-load of rags with just a few shirts. Add in an "infection mechanic", where un-sterile wound dressings cause infections, would lead to rags being the LAST choice for stopping blood loss. You would be better off trading other medical supplies, like painkillers or antibiotics. Of course, with a little Bushcraft, you could make it yourself and make a killing

 

Bullets...eh. I know they are used as commodity money, but with the sheer different number of calibers we have, as well as the amount that spawns (read: A LOT. Seriously, there are too many bullets in-game), limits its use as currency. If I have a shotgun, 9mm is worth fuck-all to me. Now, if bullets were WAY MORE RARE, then we could talk. The fact that a caliber may be worth fuck-all to someone with a firearm not in that caliber remains an issue.

 

You have to find what people NEED: If clothing spawns get cut back, and what is spawned in is usually damaged, people might want to make leather clothing. In that case, trade animal hides. If they want to use the bow, trade arrows. If they need medicine, take herbs and various plants to make bushcraft versions. If they want engine fuel/water treater/disinfectant/booze, build a still and make them moonshine.

 

Seriously, moonshine is awesome. 

[Whyherro123 2283]

Kudos then. I could tell from that last part of your initial post that you had a firm grasp on the relevance of creating a pricing structure.

 

If you really want to move towards doing this, I would recommend looking up the loot tables and spawn rates of all the items. You could then assign them values based on how rare they are (similar items would be grouped together: food items, etc.). That would be the best starting place.

 

I would recommend as a "base" currency item, something that is relatively rare, somewhat useful, and variable in it's quantity: Matches. Matches are quite rare and can be found with anywhere between 0 and 250 in a box (two bad you cant split or combine them). They are useful, but usually not essential to have a lot.  Once you determine the rarity of your "currency" item with relation to the rest of the items, you should be on the right track.

If someone has an alternate means of starting fires (which will be implemented eventually), then the value of matches becomes tied to how much an individual needs them. If someone has a bow-drill to start fires with, they might only want 10 matches to keep as backup. Or NONE, and you have fuck-all to offer them.

[WolfgangErikson 127]

If someone has an alternate means of starting fires (which will be implemented eventually), then the value of matches becomes tied to how much an individual needs them. If someone has a bow-drill to start fires with, they might only want 10 matches to keep as backup. Or NONE, and you have fuck-all to offer them.

Using them as a currency wouldn't have any bearing on whether they are useful to anybody. Paper money by itself in real life isn't useful to anybody; it's value comes from its usefulness as a point of reference for trading.The point is you are using their availability and rarity, comparing them that of other items. It doesn't matter whether either party has any at all since the point would just be to use it as a reference to value the two items being traded.

 

I don't see this happening, but the OP wanted help in determining a viable currency. The reason I suggested matches was because its common enough and rare enough, and also because once you have a few, you don't need the rest. The one problem I do see with matches that I didn't see before is that they aren't used very often, and would therefore accumulate, inflating the currency. Perhaps something that is used more often, like canned goods would make more sense (once food becomes more scare).

[Wookieenoob 191]

Kudos then. I could tell from that last part of your initial post that you had a firm grasp on the relevance of creating a pricing structure.

 

If you really want to move towards doing this, I would recommend looking up the loot tables and spawn rates of all the items. You could then assign them values based on how rare they are (similar items would be grouped together: food items, etc.). That would be the best starting place.

 

I would recommend as a "base" currency item, something that is relatively rare, somewhat useful, and variable in it's quantity: Matches. Matches are quite rare and can be found with anywhere between 0 and 250 in a box (two bad you cant split or combine them). They are useful, but usually not essential to have a lot.  Once you determine the rarity of your "currency" item with relation to the rest of the items, you should be on the right track.

 

 

you don't assign it based on rarity, you assign it based on what people want.

 

 

 

 

all civ loot goes here, including makarovs, all lower weapons, mosins. 

 

________________ price line. anything below this line is probably worth 1 burlap sack. anything above this line is worth at least 5. the rarest items are worth more than one stack (10)

 

any pistol other than P1w/mag, cr75w/mag or FNX45w/mag or amphibia

 

SKS (common) ballistic vest nopouch (common)

 

LRS + mosin compensator, PU,  can opener, axes, gorka/TSSKO, balaclava, aviators (highest possible value civ loots other than pistol suppressor)

 

AKM and AKM mags aren't rare but they should be the same price as AKS/AK101 mags and AK74/AK101. the AKS should have a higher value since it is a backpack weapon.

 

prison uniform? firefighter uniform? 

 

chopper crash loot re M4s and augs go here, above AKs. probably also the skull balaclava. 

 

out on top of the AKs and m4 in price should be the AK rail. 

 

M4 attachments go here

 

M4 scopes go here, maybe PSO-1 too.

 

protector case/M65 jacket/amphibiaw/mag/sword/SMGs w/mag go here, grenades,  P1w/mag, cr75w/mag or FNX45w/mag, possibly also stab vest and press vest. jerry can goes here re 1 protector case, hi-cap goes here, below smersh vest and pockets vest. 

 

silencers, pistol silencers and other pistol attachments other than flashlights, pockets for ballistic vest, smersh vest. 

 

large mag for the pm73, pm73, ww2 grenade, possibly PSO-1 depending on who you talk to.

 

tents (people will pay anything sometimes.)

 

 

 

 

you can probably trade a full stack of burlap for anything worth less than an m4/chopper crash item. two stacks might get you anything from the list other than large pm73 mag and ww2 grenade. 1 protector case (p) = 2 stacks of burlap (20) - as is anything from this part of the list.

 

 

PM73 large mag/ww2 grenade are possible the rarest items in the game. ww2 grenade estimated to only spawn 1:100 or less in barracks and PM73 25rnd mag is probably the rarest chopper item. given that these are possibly twice as rare they get to be twice as valuable. PM73 is probably worth 6 protector cases or something. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Wookieenoob

[WolfgangErikson 127]

you don't assign it based on rarity, you assign it based on what people want.

 

 

Using rarity was only a suggestion for him to get a good starting point. Once you know the supply, you can then adjust your values based on the demand. That's economics. You can't apply any realistic values to anything unless you know the supply.That is why he needs to start there.

 

Besides, you said you don't base it on rarity, and then used rarity as one your main deciding factors in your own value estimations. lol. One of the main reasons why demand is so high for most of those high value items, is because they are rare.

Edited March 6, 2015 by WolfgangErikson

[Wookieenoob 191]

Using rarity was only a suggestion for him to get a good starting point. Once you know the supply, you can then adjust your values based on the demand. That's economics. You can't apply any realistic values to anything unless you know the supply.That is why he needs to start there.

 

Besides, you said you don't base it on rarity, and then used rarity as one your main deciding factors in your own value estimations. lol. One of the main reasons why demand is so high for most of those high value items, is because they are rare.

 

there's some correlation in there, but hi-cap isn't anywhere near as "rare" as M4 relatively, but it's something every player sort of wants, so it's probably worth more, or at least on-par. it's more likely that people are going to want PSO AKM or mosin + AKS than M4, but the M4 is more rare, so it's probably a bit above them, but the M4 is below the smersh vest and PM by a long way. why? because people want the smersh vest and PM more than they would want an M4. i don't know if that's purely because they're rare, but i know that ghillie players really want hi-cap, smersh and pockets vest for the space alone, so they're going to be some of the higher value items, over M4.

 

same for can openers, aviators and balaclavas. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Wookieenoob

[Rags! 1966]

Rags would be a horrible idea for currency because they are far too easy to create by themselves. After Persistence is finalized, Rags will be a renewable resource that can be renewed a little too quickly. Everything will respawn, but Rags can be created from an immensely vast amount of clothing spawns. Players could far too easily saturate the "market" with currency, and that's something that's bad. A single shirt can give 4, bandanas  give 2...and those items are not uncommon at all. Plus, they can only be stacked to 6, which means they will take up an exorbitant amount of space for, currency-wise, little value. 

 

For instance, take the MMO issue that happens over time, which is inflation of in-game currency. Most players accrue in-game money far faster than they spend it, which means that over time the economy of the world changes, gold and silver becomes less and less valuable, so more is needed. That's one reason you have to pay to fast travel and repair your gear in an MMO...it is a money sink to take currency out of the in-game economy so super inflation doesn't occur.  

 

One can see that Rags, even though they are used...they simply are not used enough to keep the economy stabilized as well as could be. You might use a couple Rags during a life of a character. I almost guarantee that you've used immensely, vastly more bullets than Rags. Bullets would be a much better alternative to Rags because they are taken out of the economy faster, but also because I believe that the days of tripping over Pristine piles of 7.62 x 51mm ammunition are not going to last. Ammo is almost certainly going to become much scarce, and...just like money in our own lives...we don't like to throw it away foolishly. Perhaps that idea might even stifle somewhat the KOS mentality that this game has with it...

 

Nobody has voted for canned goods yet because they are not stackable and will become, I think, a little too rare to find in enough quantity to use effectively as currency. 

 

Burlap sacks/netting, I don't even know why you would consider this as currency. All you can do with it is make ghillie items, and if a player doesn't want ghillie components like myself...then the item has absolutely zero value. 

 

To be honest, though...there's no point and no need for currency in DayZ. It is an idea that is pointless in the setting, and players will always trade items based on need, rarity, and usefulness. Shotgun shells have immense value to somebody with a shotgun and no shells. Shells can be of no value to somebody who already has them. Such is the delightful versatility and dynamic quality of the in-game incidental bartering system. 

 

EDIT: I have realized in hindsight that any currency system would be possibly rendered pointless in Public Shard servers because of server hopping  and players could safely get all items relegated as currency in whatever amounts they wish, bring them to another server, and use them there. This would be just as much of an exploit as server hopping for military gear is. And if you do it, then I hope you stub your toe on a coffee table made of monumental alabaster. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Rags

[demoore 15]

I made an edit to the OP. It better describes my intent. I'm also going to be adding the pros and cons that you guys give to the OP as we go along. Thank you for the feedback guys.

[ebrim 998]

If anything in the game ever became a suitable currency, it would already be a currency in practice. But, no such thing exists in the sense that is being talked about in this thread. That's not to say it doesn't exist though, currency is simply a way to simplify trade and trade already happens in DayZ and the second a trade is made of x of z for m of n (as happens from time to time) then the elements of currency are there. The problem you run into is that very few goods hold a steady value for each and every player at any given moment to make the fundamental parts of that trade a useful currency. Without some sort of bank or some other active hand you're simply not going to get the money system you're thinking of.

 

As for the initial assumptions, the idea that gold or silver are inherently valuable is silly, they are only as valuable as people make them to be. This is true of all currencies and not just fiat currencies.

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

Personally i think fuel should be made the ticket to luxury.

Electricity is vital and generator fuel should be the only access to stuff like...

 

- Advanced Base Building (Construction Tools)

- Welding (advanced vehicle upgrades and repairs,advanced barricading - Electric Fences)

- Advanced Crafting (Saw tables and general manufacturing machinery)

- Running Appliances (Ovens,Fridges,Stationary Radios and Security Systems like CCTV with remote communication and remote access doors  )

- Functioning Radiators

- Electricity Lighting

- Garden with Sprinkler System

 

...and much more i forgot to mention!

 

If the above features are implemented and fuel is made a scarce,valuable resource,people are bound to consider it as a means of currency.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Damnyourdeadman

[Evil Minion 943]

I have realized in hindsight that any currency system would be possibly rendered pointless in Public Shard servers because of server hopping

Server hopping renders everything pointless that is even remotely tied to game dynamics and economy. That's why an eventual fix is basically mandatory. You do not need to go full berserk and make every server private (in fact this would even hurt as those small isolated worlds could only support very small and limited economies where trading might not be much of a factor) but reducing the connectivity between servers to a point where switching does not give you any advantage in terms of finding items (risk, speed etc.) certainly helps.

 

In DayZ any kind of currency should:

• be of short term use (DayZ life is short)
• be easy to carry around in higher quantity
• be rare enough to stay valuable
• be abundant enough to allow trading it away
• not spoil or get destroyed quickly
• be able to get stacked and split
• be valuable to a high number of players (if nobody wants your stuff its worthless)

Currently there is no such item so any trade is likely to be a direct one. Or none at all as items nowadays are more likely to be very common (you can easily get them by just looting and almost nobody wants to give you sth. for them) or very rare (almost nobody wants to trade them away). Bullets, you say? They are quite abundant and have the awful property of increasing ones threat level as their primary use is killing other players. And they are highly likely to be used as such because firearms are also abundant. So using bullets as "money" would just boost the overall threat level even further - which in turn makes the very act of trading less attractive.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Server hopping renders everything pointless that is even remotely tied to game dynamics and economy. That's why an eventual fix is basically mandatory. You do not need to go full berserk and make every server private (in fact this would even hurt as those small isolated worlds could only support very small and limited economies where trading might not be much of a factor) but reducing the connectivity between servers to a point where switching does not give you any advantage in terms of finding items (risk, speed etc.) certainly helps.

 

In DayZ any kind of currency should:

• be of short term use (DayZ life is short)
• be easy to carry around in higher quantity
• be rare enough to stay valuable
• be abundant enough to allow trading it away
• not spoil or get destroyed quickly
• be able to get stacked and split
• be valuable to a high number of players (if nobody wants your stuff its worthless)

Currently there is no such item so any trade is likely to be a direct one. Or none at all as items nowadays are more likely to be very common (you can easily get them by just looting and almost nobody wants to give you sth. for them) or very rare (almost nobody wants to trade them away). Bullets, you say? They are quite abundant and have the awful property of increasing ones threat level as their primary use is killing other players. And they are highly likely to be used as such because firearms are also abundant. So using bullets as "money" would just boost the overall threat level even further - which in turn makes the very act of trading less attractive.

 

MOONSHINE

[gannon46 788]

i don't want to see any in-game currency. if there would be something used for currency it should be left to the folks who play on that server community. i don't want to see a mmo economy with a market place bullshit with an m4 being sold by bots for 10000000000 bullets. leave it to the players to trade and organize events to acquire goods and services. now if i misunderstood your idea i do apologize because anytime i hear mmo talk like currency or marketplace when it comes to dayz it makes me cringe and grind my teeth. i could see currency or paper money being used as currency on an RP server though but that falls into the line above about it being up to the player community on the server and what they feel is right to use.

[SomeCallMeNomad (DayZ) 89]

how many bullets is a fireman axe worth, or how many baked beans is a Mosin worth?

That's up to the people trading to decide. You can't really set a specific price.

Edited March 9, 2015 by SomeCallMeNomad