Any plans for 3PP immersion?

[hleVqq 139]

So then why has it been an option since day1 lol... It's something that doesn't belong to dayz it just has it to.please the majority of people who play the game? Huh?

Casuals.

[zeotrope 76]

The last Survivor Games was player in 1st Person. Wonder why? :)

[blunce 991]

If you've been watching me from a rooftop or behind a tree with your head not exposed and there's no visual indication you're watching me even if I'm looking right at your spot you can't honestly say that's fair.

 

I say it's fair because that's the kind of gameplay that comes with the 3PP territory. You're right, in the real world, yes; if you can see someone, they can see you. That's how light & the laws of physics works.

 

But, you're playing from 3PP. & as long as you continue to play it, that's the kind of gameplay that comes with the territory. The most you can do is restrict the field of view.

 

It's like the ongoing KoS argument, you can do everything in your power to deter it, but it'll forever be there.

[zeotrope 76]

 

 

It's like the ongoing KoS argument, you can do everything in your power to deter it, but it'll forever be there.

Why? Why will it be there forever? Why can't it be removed based on realism or just plain common sense ? Not like KoS in any way.

[raigprime 47]

Without trawling through many pages or multiple threads / posts, has a Dev ever responded to these conversations? Is the removal of 3PP ever been properly assessed? It seems to be the fault of Arma that is it existed in the first place. And that is odd in itself considering it's a combat simulation.

Can we please here from so Devs? 

Hey Zeotrope... I pissed off Hicks enough for him to answer me on this one before Dean left. He said, in no uncertain terms, that 3PP was going to stay in the game. Zero chance of removing it. Zero...

 

The below conversation was specifically about 3PP (Regular) vs. 1PP (Hardcore)

 

Brian Hicks ‏@Hicks_206  Apr 16

@raigprime @Acesfury @BreaK_71 @rocket2guns This is how it is. We have Hardcore, and Regular game modes. We will not be removing Reg.

 

 

I know that they will not remove 3PP. Per my original post at the start of this thread, my HOPE was that they were still planning to FIX it. But it doesn't sound like that's the case either. It sounds like 3PP will stay the same broken, exploitable mess it is now.

[blunce 991]

Why? Why will it be there forever? Why can't it be removed based on realism or just plain common sense ? Not like KoS in any way.

 

Well in all fairness, it is just my opinion. & I believe that wall-peeking will be there forever because I just can't see the devs implementing something such as a mechanic that doesn't render other players when you're behind cover & those other players are out of your line of sight. That would be breaking realism far more than the wall-peeking itself.

 

& I really see no other "solution". & I'm using that term loosely because we don't need a solution. Wall-peeking isn't broken.

[rybec 339]

We I just can't see the devs implementing something such as a mechanic that doesn't render other players when you're behind cover & those other players are out of your line of sight. That would be breaking realism far more than the wall-peeking itself.

What you're saying is it'd be unrealistic to make you unable to see people you shouldn't be able to see.

 

Wall-peeking isn't broken.

I see him but he truly cannot see me is very broken.

 

If you compare firefights in first and third person, people are very cautious when they know they can get shot while taking a peek. 3rd person firefights grind to a halt while you wait on the other guy to make a move first.

[spartanxapathy 203]

 

If there was a server option to spawn in fully geared and not have any survival elements guess which would be the most popular servers.

 

I don't doubt that. Like you said about Epoch, look at the mod, all the servers that were high pop were the spawn with Gun/Map/Steak/Water/Compass...

 

 

Personally I would like to see a system like the 3PP mod for ArmA 3 where if you are looking over a wall in 3rd, but your player model couldnt see over it, you client would not display any AI/units until you could see them for real. For the life of me I cannot seem to find it on YT at the moment, but it was pretty slick. Basically, if you couldn't see it in first person, you wouldn't be able to see it in third. In the video he is behind a truck and in 3rd person and the street looks empty. He stands up and now there are AI on the road on the opposite side of the truck. 

 

EDIT: I should have looked thru the whole thread. Laziness for the loss. Sorry to repeat the same thing as someone else.

Edited February 26, 2015 by SpartanxApathy

[gibonez 3633]

I don't doubt that. Like you said about Epoch, look at the mod, all the servers that were high pop were the spawn with Gun/Map/Steak/Water/Compass...

Personally I would like to see a system like the 3PP mod for ArmA 3 where if you are looking over a wall in 3rd, but your player model couldnt see over it, you client would not display any AI/units until you could see them for real. For the life of me I cannot seem to find it on YT at the moment, but it was pretty slick. Basically, if you couldn't see it in first person, you wouldn't be able to see it in third. In the video he is behind a truck and in 3rd person and the street looks empty. He stands up and now there are AI on the road on the opposite side of the truck.

EDIT: I should have looked thru the whole thread. Laziness for the loss. Sorry to repeat the same thing as someone else.

That mods feature should be implemented directly into the new engine that bohemia is developing.

What better time than now to fix a problem that has plagued bohemia games for so long.

[spartanxapathy 203]

That mods feature should be implemented directly into the new engine that bohemia is developing.

What better time than now to fix a problem that has plagued bohemia games for so long.

 

I agree, but I also feel that if they did implement that there would be a huge backlash from the more casual (I don't mean that in the typical shit talking manner) players. It is a topic that will continue to be debated by both side. I personally feel that immersion is the biggest draw of this game, so I stick to first person, that and I just don't think the play style in 3rd is that fun.

[gibonez 3633]

I agree, but I also feel that if they did implement that there would be a huge backlash from the more casual (I don't mean that in the typical shit talking manner) players. It is a topic that will continue to be debated by both side. I personally feel that immersion is the biggest draw of this game, so I stick to first person, that and I just don't think the play style in 3rd is that fun.

They would adapt just like they did wish stamina and sway.

Plus dayz and arma are mod friendly nothing stops then from making a mod that puts wall peeking back

[blunce 991]

What you're saying is it'd be unrealistic to make you unable to see people you shouldn't be able to see.

 

No, what I'm saying is that having players appearing, disappearing, & flickering on screen is unrealistic.

 

I see him but he truly cannot see me is very broken.

 

If you compare firefights in first and third person, people are very cautious when they know they can get shot while taking a peek. 3rd person firefights grind to a halt while you wait on the other guy to make a move first.

 

I say that it's not broken because the game mode is working as it's intended. Sure, it's extremely exploitable, but it's working as it's intended.

 

Again, that type of gameplay just comes with the territory of a 3rd person camera perspective, & I think trying to create all of these "workarounds" to put an end to wall-peeking is only going to create more issues than it solves.

[Jex 1104]

I grasp that concept very well.

 

You need to grasp the concept that the playing field is level because it will one day be you on said road & someone else behind said rock.

 

Yes, the person hiding is at an advantage, because they have the element of surprise regardless of camera perspective.

 

Back to my original analogy; it's like saying that the game is unfair because I found a gun before you did.

 

All this time I've been arguing it's me on the road, not behind the rock and not on top of a building because I don't wait to ambush players so no, you and your bean givers still don't get the point at all.  So right there your argument is already shot to pieces.

 

Now onto your point about ambushing - do you think it's easier to ambush in 3rd person or in first person - which one gives you the greater view of the area? Oh it's 3pp, giving you are far greater advantage than you would have if you were in 1pp. The risk is also far greater for you.

 

Your analogy makes no sense because when you found your gun, you're in berezino and I'm in Kamenka - it has nothing to do with the argument because you can't choose when and where to find a gun.

 

We're also talking about lives here and I see the real issue - you have no concept of keeping your character alive whereas I do. I play to survive, I don't want to die. You on the other hand go through lives without a care. When you have 3pp, it negatively impacts the course of play of survivors because we take each life on an individual basis.

 

When you use 3pp cam to an advantage, we're not playing the game and stocking up points of who got one over on the other. If you're on a roof, you have a huge advantage with 3pp - it doesn't matter if I can also get on the roof because at the point where it matters, right at that time, the guy on the ground is the one who has the disadvantages.

 

It's not any consolation telling him, "It's ok, next life you can go on the roof and get someone else back" - sorry, I'm dead, the new me just woke up on the beach and has no recollection of what happened to the old me.

 

Some of us refuse to advocate using 3pp as an exploit to gain an unfair advantage over other players and so easily too. At least in 1pp, I know I have a chance of seeing someone else and at least the view I'm using is realistic and more immersive :)

[Jex 1104]

But that's wrong.

The only time the playing field is level is when you've both seen each other and are sitting behind whatever cover you have watching for the other to eventually move because you're both 100% immune to getting shot by the other while having 100% vision.

 

I agree the person who has the element of surprise has the advantage, but if you see me I should have the capability to see you. Even if it's extremely unlikely I could pick you out from your concealment you still have the tradeoff. To see me you should run the risk of being seen by me. If I get shot because you've been watching me and I wasn't paying enough attention to locate you that's all my fault.

If you've been watching me from a rooftop or behind a tree with your head not exposed and there's no visual indication you're watching me even if I'm looking right at your spot you can't honestly say that's fair.

 

Somebody gets it - it's the first paragraph too ;)

[fnal 206]

Ic honestly already that demonstrates a prototype of how good a dynamic camera system would be.

 

A camera that proactively prevents the player from using the wall peek crutch would do wonders for gameplay.

 

I would simplify the camera by just making it move automatically to certain positions regardless of a wall in front of the player, so for instance when crouch the camera zooms in and adjusts to just behind the right ass cheek of the player, and when prone the camera focuses just behind the players feet making it impossible to see over walls.

 

When standing your dynamic camera would be perfect as it would allow people to continue to enjoy the camera for looking at their players and for long treks but no longer abuse able for wall peeking during combat.

I'm going to get in contact with Deadfast, the guy who made the 3PP mods for Arma 2 and 3, and see if it would be possible or even feasible to make a concept of my camera system in Arma 2 since 3ds Max just won't do it justice like in-game would.  Sorry, the animations are a little lame and quick but I've been busy lately.  

 

Here are a few more videos for comparison of the default views to the concept.

 

Default Look Left - Notice how you can look over the wall easily

 

 

Concept Left 1 - The camera target and range to character move away/in at a relatively uniform pace.

 

 

Concept Left 2 - The target moves away faster than the camera moves in.  

 

 

Default Look Down - Can easily be used to peek over walls.

 

 

Concept Look Down - While doesn't fully prevent seeing over the wall, it is much more difficult since the camera immediately  starts to look down and then move closer to the character so no more looking straight down to see someone directly on the other side of a fence or wall.

 

[IgnobleBasterd 161]

Cause first person in a two dimensional game isn't realistic either.

 

Makes no sense.

[JPWiser 251]

Makes no sense.

Makes perfect sense unless your trying to tell me its realistic to have to turn your head to see something you'd quite easily see in your normal field of view.

[blunce 991]

All this time I've been arguing it's me on the road, not behind the rock and not on top of a building because I don't wait to ambush players so no, you and your bean givers still don't get the point at all.  So right there your argument is already shot to pieces.

 

Now onto your point about ambushing - do you think it's easier to ambush in 3rd person or in first person - which one gives you the greater view of the area? Oh it's 3pp, giving you are far greater advantage than you would have if you were in 1pp. The risk is also far greater for you.

 

Your analogy makes no sense because when you found your gun, you're in berezino and I'm in Kamenka - it has nothing to do with the argument because you can't choose when and where to find a gun.

 

We're also talking about lives here and I see the real issue - you have no concept of keeping your character alive whereas I do. I play to survive, I don't want to die. You on the other hand go through lives without a care. When you have 3pp, it negatively impacts the course of play of survivors because we take each life on an individual basis.

 

When you use 3pp cam to an advantage, we're not playing the game and stocking up points of who got one over on the other. If you're on a roof, you have a huge advantage with 3pp - it doesn't matter if I can also get on the roof because at the point where it matters, right at that time, the guy on the ground is the one who has the disadvantages.

 

It's not any consolation telling him, "It's ok, next life you can go on the roof and get someone else back" - sorry, I'm dead, the new me just woke up on the beach and has no recollection of what happened to the old me.

 

Some of us refuse to advocate using 3pp as an exploit to gain an unfair advantage over other players and so easily too. At least in 1pp, I know I have a chance of seeing someone else and at least the view I'm using is realistic and more immersive :)

 

Jexter, I understand where you're coming from, I really do. DayZ is a game that thrives for authenticity, & 3PP exploits are detracting from that.

 

My argument is that I truly believe that there is no practical solution. Sure you can do things such as restricting camera field of view, & potentially make it so other players don't render when there's an object between the two of you breaking your line of sight, but doing things like that then detract from other aspects of gameplay.

 

If the 3PP camera becomes so tight & enclosed where you can barely see what's around you, what's the point? You might as well play 1PP at that point. & even so, people could still wall peek. It would just be a bit more difficult.

 

If a mechanic is implemented that makes other players not render when out of line of sight, that's a huge immersion breaker. Players would behave like ghosts always appearing & disappearing. & I feel that the game would suffer more from that than the current wall-peeking exploit.

 

It becomes a matter of where do the devs draw the line when trying to create this balance? With that said, I already think 3PP is already encroaching on that line.

 

It's all risk vs. reward.

Edited February 26, 2015 by blunce

[rybec 339]

If a mechanic is implemented that makes other players not render when out of line of sight, that's a huge immersion breaker.

You're telling me people appearing when your character can actually see them breaks your immersion while your vision comes from a magical floating camera behind 'you'.

 

 

It's all risk vs. reward.

Risk vs Reward is the bread and butter of 1st person.

Oh geez, there's a guy in a firefight with you. You just hit the corner of a building.

Are you going to take a peek and risk taking a bullet to the forehead?

Are you going to try to aim and shoot?

Where did he go?

Will he be looking at you when you peek out?

Did he move somewhere to get at your side?

You just don't know because you can't see around that corner without actually looking around that corner.

[RanshiTV 89]

Haha, I do enjoy the pure hatred that some 'hardcore' players feel towards 3PP. Does it not occur to some people that we're all different, and we like different things? There's nothing wrong with that. Stick to what you enjoy, and let others have fun doing what they enjoy (no matter how much you look down on it from your imaginary high-horse). It's NOT the fault of 3P players that 1P servers are half empty - 1P just isn't as popular. That's how the world works. Generally speaking, businesses don't tweak popular products to appeal more to the minority at the expense of the majority - it's bad business sense.

[blunce 991]

Risk vs Reward is the bread and butter of 1st person.

Oh geez, there's a guy in a firefight with you. You just hit the corner of a building.

Are you going to take a peek and risk taking a bullet to the forehead?

Are you going to try to aim and shoot?

Where did he go?

Will he be looking at you when you peek out?

Did he move somewhere to get at your side?

You just don't know because you can't see around that corner without actually looking around that corner.

 

I know this.

 

I play 1PP exclusively.

[Jex 1104]

Makes perfect sense unless your trying to tell me its realistic to have to turn your head to see something you'd quite easily see in your normal field of view.

 

So set your FOV slider all the way to the right and you're almost there. I think Arma (DayZ) gives 120 degrees which isn't far off RL and more than you'll get in any other FPS out there which you're not complaining about.

 

You do know that 3pp does not increase your field of view right?

[Jex 1104]

Jexter, I understand where you're coming from, I really do. DayZ is a game that thrives for authenticity, & 3PP exploits are detracting from that.

 

My argument is that I truly believe that there is no practical solution. Sure you can do things such as restricting camera field of view, & potentially make it so other players don't render when there's an object between the two of you breaking your line of sight, but doing things like that then detract from other aspects of gameplay.

 

If the 3PP camera becomes so tight & enclosed where you can barely see what's around you, what's the point? You might as well play 1PP at that point. & even so, people could still wall peek. It would just be a bit more difficult.

 

If a mechanic is implemented that makes other players not render when out of line of sight, that's a huge immersion breaker. Players would behave like ghosts always appearing & disappearing. & I feel that the game would suffer more from that than the current wall-peeking exploit.

 

It becomes a matter of where do the devs draw the line when trying to create this balance? With that said, I already think 3PP is already encroaching on that line.

 

It's all risk vs. reward.

 

I don't know. I'm of the opinion that when you can use something in a game to an unfair advantage then it should be taken out the game.

 

If you use a wall hack, you are considered a cheater and banned from the game except when you can wall hack using a 3pp camera, right? It seems to me that both allow you to see through walls except somehow, we find one acceptable and the other deplorable. Yes everyone can use 3pp so there is a difference but that doesn't help the guy being viewed by the guy on the roof. In this situation, the guy on the roof is no different than a guy on a roof using a wallhack - do we allow hackers off if they only use their hacks on a roof?

 

Where do they draw the line - well, if everyone here thinks the only reason they play DayZ is solely for the 3pp camera, then I think they're lying. If the devs think that's all their game as got going for it, they're idiots and that is demonstrable. DayZ is the game we play and it's a good, solid game that's worth playing and there might be a few people who quit over its removal but they'll literally being cutting off their nose to spite their face. It will be their loss they decided to quit playing a game they enjoy and a month after it's removal, nobody will be talking about it but I bet the experiences will be better for it :)

[IgnobleBasterd 161]

I don't know. I'm of the opinion that when you can use something in a game to an unfair advantage then it should be taken out the game.

 

If you use a wall hack, you are considered a cheater and banned from the game except when you can wall hack using a 3pp camera, right? It seems to me that both allow you to see through walls except somehow, we find one acceptable and the other deplorable. Yes everyone can use 3pp so there is a difference but that doesn't help the guy being viewed by the guy on the roof. In this situation, the guy on the roof is no different than a guy on a roof using a wallhack - do we allow hackers off if they only use their hacks on a roof?

 

Where do they draw the line - well, if everyone here thinks the only reason they play DayZ is solely for the 3pp camera, then I think they're lying. If the devs think that's all their game as got going for it, they're idiots and that is demonstrable. DayZ is the game we play and it's a good, solid game that's worth playing and there might be a few people who quit over its removal but they'll literally being cutting off their nose to spite their face. It will be their loss they decided to quit playing a game they enjoy and a month after it's removal, nobody will be talking about it but I bet the experiences will be better for it :)

Excellent point dear sir!

[skypig 139]

I like the way it goes in arma 3 (might be in 2, not sure) how you drive a vehicle into the reeds and the camera seems to scoot down onto the roof taking your view into the reeds with you.

gotta hop out and run around on foot to make sure you're not sticking out.