What none of us want to admit

[CJFlint 357]

Be nice if we could make a fire and throw some of these "useless" items on to destroy them....i really hate finding buildings absolutely cluttered with gear.  Would love a good bonfire.

 

But then again persistence will be a constantly evolving thing for the devs to tweek and change.

As much of a survivalist I fancy my self....I felt like a kid in a candy store when I found one of those buildings cluttered with gear.. :D  :beans:  :beans: :beans:  :beans:  :beans:  :beans:  :beans:  I will confess! It seems like it only happens randomly in certian areas.

Edited November 25, 2014 by CJFlint

[ChainReactor 922]

I`m with OP on this one. And honestly? I`m not hiding that I don't want to search for loot off coast. I want to get a gun with some ammo and jump in the hell people sometimes call "Berezino".

 

So just play Battle Royale on ArmA ? It's actually exactly what you describe. It's out there, no need to wait wether or not DayZ will eventually become what you want.

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

Persistence is an amazing idea but in reality it is terrible.  I have played many hours of Dayz SA (150 plus) and I love the game and I understand it is a work in progress.  I also understand that persistence will be tweaked many times, but I am talking about it as a game feature overall. 

All loot is gone from the coastal areas so it encourages players to go inland (no problem with that).  Once you go inland to a small town many building have an abundance of useless loot (chem lights, wrenches, hard hats, books, etc.).  All usable loot has been taken and all useless loot has been left.  Loot will respawn over and over but players will continue to leave crap and take the few desirable items.  Over time this leaves an abundance of garbage that the server has to track.  Like I said above, I understand it is a work in progress and it will be tweaked but the tweaks can only go so far while still keeping the game persistent.   It is an unnecessary restraint the devs are putting on themselves and the game.

I think tents being persistent is a great idea and it should stay but I think the overall server persistence will not be in the final game.  Most every player has the same goals in the game, get healthy, get geared, pvp of some form or another.  The process of achieving those goals must be fun and rewarding or the game will not succeed. 

The old system of loot respawning on server restart was not perfect either but it made more sense than the current system and the old system has to be more sustainable than the server tracking the location of each piece of moved loot.  As players of games in general we accept the fact that if you kill a guy or drop an item it is not going to be there forever, wanting it to be so is silly. 

Persistence encourages unrealistic actions such as looting a building 100% and dumping all of the stuff outside or just taking guns and ammo that you do not want or need and dropping them in a bush.  That is not realistic and it seems that all the people that want persistence are all about being as realistic as possible.  Persistence is far from realistic and I do not believe any amount of tweaking will make it so.

Bash away......

Firstly, 150 hours isn't really many hours at all.

 

DayZ is in Alpha right, so eventually bodies wont have a 10 minute despawn timer so you need to think about that.

 

Loot farming is a temporary issue, consider that in the final world of persistence.

 

Persistence IS realistic. The current state of persistence your referring to is how its bugged, which is temporal. Meaning, its not going to last forever. Your doing a bit of contradicting yourself as well as complaining. Not really productive to the forum. Everybody knows persistence is bugged.

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

I hate to say it, but really, you are playing the wrong type of game. 

 

You want to play Deathmatch on a poorly optimized Survival simulator? Go right ahead, but don't complain when the game moves in a direction that makes it harder for you to play Deathmatch. Because that is what loot persistence is, in part, as well as the cities along the coast being stripped of loot. 

 

Actually you are right. I am playing (mostly) deathmatch in a survival game and the if loot persistence will ever be forced and coastal cities will be stripped of loot, that could be my last day of playing DayZ (which will really, but really suck).

 

However, a significant percentage of DayZ players play like this, since I always have a lot of people to pvp with in the coastal cities. I`m pretty sure that the devs are aware of it and probably wouldn't want people to stop playing the game (and stop recommending it to their gamer friends). I think the best way to keep everyone happy would just be to make a hardcore mode, or the opposite - hardcore by default and make "easy mode" for anyone interested. Just don't be surprised if there will be more people playing the "easy mode".

 

Also one more thing I`d like to point out, DayZ (at least for me) pretty much has the ultimate pvp concept. And here's why (a copy from my post on the KOS topic):

*Gritty and realistic setting (future setting\fantasy games are generally a huge turn off for me)

*Everyone versus everyone unless you decide to team up with someone

*You can communicate with\rob other players without having to kill them

*Massive and open map (ok, I don't really care about massive, but the openness of the map just beats any other game)

*You spawn unarmed

*You have to find guns,ammo and magazines

 

If you know another game that has all (or at least most) of these points - please introduce me to it. I`m kind of mindblown that all the DayZ clones out there stick to the survival side, and not the ridiculously simple but great pvp concept.

Edited November 25, 2014 by ValentinBk

[scriptfactory 620]

You left out the important thing about loot outside persistent containers will degrade. So it should not be such an eternal buildup of trash loot, because that trash loot will degrade and eventually disappear making new loot spawn somewhere else.

 

I don't think loot should degrade over time, to be quite honest. Only damage or actual use should degrade items, IMO.

 

My question is, in what way does the current degrading loot mechanic improve gameplay?

[Whyherro123 2283]

Actually you are right. I am playing (mostly) deathmatch in a survival game and the if loot persistence will ever be forced and coastal cities will be stripped of loot, that could be my last day of playing DayZ (which will really, but really suck).

 

However, a significant percentage of DayZ players play like this, since I always have a lot of people to pvp with in the coastal cities. I`m pretty sure that the devs are aware of it and probably wouldn't want people to stop playing the game (and stop recommending it to their gamer friends). I think the best way to keep everyone happy would just be to make a hardcore mode, or the opposite - hardcore by default and make "easy mode" for anyone interested. Just don't be surprised if there will be more people playing the "easy mode".

 

Also one more thing I`d like to point out, DayZ (at least for me) pretty much has the ultimate pvp concept. And here's why (a copy from my post on the KOS topic):

*Gritty and realistic setting (future setting\fantasy games are generally a huge turn off for me)

*Everyone versus everyone unless you decide to team up with someone

*You can communicate with\rob other players without having to kill them

*Massive and open map

*You spawn unarmed

*You have to find guns,ammo and magazines

 

If you know another game that has all (or at least most) of these points - please introduce me to it. I`m kind of mindblown that all the DayZ clones out there stick to the survival side, and not the ridiculously simple but great pvp concept.

There is an overwhelming preponderance of PvP right now because there is literally nothing else to do, with survival mechanics being in the embryonic stage, fetal at best. Not because the in-game mechanics for PvP are particularly good.

 

When the firearm loot spawns get toned down, ammunition becomes scarce, the medical system becomes more advanced than "tie a dirty rag around the BULLET HOLE in your torso", and the environment becomes an actual serious threat (all of which are coming, eventually. The game is, what, 10% done at the very most?), then I expect gratuitous PvP to die down, and survival to take to the forefront.

 

Enjoy it while you can.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I don't think loot should degrade over time, to be quite honest. Only damage or actual use should degrade items, IMO.

 

My question is, in what way does the current degrading loot mechanic improve gameplay?

Sure it should. If you leave equipment outside in real life, it degrades, especially when subjected to saltwater (aka water vapor from the ocean), as well as moisture. 

 

As for current loot-degredation mechanics, it adds a lot, formost the need to find replacement items, or to find "maintenance" equipment with which to repair your gear. If gear was static and unchanging, why should you care if you get smacked around or shot (besides dying)? You wouldn't need to find new gear, as the stuff you already have would be "good forever".

[gibonez 3633]

Way way way way too early to judge persistence.

Central loot system isn't even in yet.

[ob1korobi 125]

I hate to say it, but really, you are playing the wrong type of game. 

 

You want to play Deathmatch on a poorly optimized Survival simulator? Go right ahead, but don't complain when the game moves in a direction that makes it harder for you to play Deathmatch. Because that is what loot persistence is, in part, as well as the cities along the coast being stripped of loot. 

 

Whyherro gets all of my beans for the rest of the month. Sorry that it's already the 25th and not much of a month left though.

Edited November 25, 2014 by BigB055

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

There is an overwhelming preponderance of PvP right now because there is literally nothing else to do, with survival mechanics being in the embryonic stage, fetal at best. Not because the in-game mechanics for PvP are particularly good.

 

When the firearm loot spawns get toned down, ammunition becomes scarce, the medical system becomes more advanced than "tie a dirty rag around the BULLET HOLE in your torso", and the environment becomes an actual serious threat (all of which are coming, eventually. The game is, what, 10% done at the very most?), then I expect gratuitous PvP to die down, and survival to take to the forefront.

 

Enjoy it while you can.

I keep seeing the "nothing else to do" comment here on the forums, but I strongly disagree with it. Realistically, how many people would keep playing the game if there was nothing to do? Some people would, but most people would just go play something else. I believe the reason for the MASSIVE amount of pvp ingame is because its so damn fun, rather than the "nothing to do" suggestion.

 

I`m personally all for making the pvp challenging. Much more zombies? Awesome. Complex injury system? Please yes. But I want to be able to easily obtain a civilian gun with some ammo. As far as I`m concerned they can leave all the really good guns far in the west (which is kind of what happens now).

Edited November 25, 2014 by ValentinBk

[scriptfactory 620]

Sure it should. If you leave equipment outside in real life, it degrades, especially when subjected to saltwater (aka water vapor from the ocean), as well as moisture. 

 

As for current loot-degredation mechanics, it adds a lot, formost the need to find replacement items, or to find "maintenance" equipment with which to repair your gear. If gear was static and unchanging, why should you care if you get smacked around or shot (besides dying)? You wouldn't need to find new gear, as the stuff you already have would be "good forever".

 

All they would need to do is adjust the loot tables. When you have an item equipped or stored in a persistent container does it degrade? If not, it shouldn't degrade when you drop it on the ground either.

[ob1korobi 125]

Arma is much more refined, has the same mechanics, has vehicles, has games like King Of The Hill and lots of guns. Just saying.  

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

All they would need to do is adjust the loot tables. When you have an item equipped or stored in a persistent container does it degrade? If not, it shouldn't degrade when you drop it on the ground either.

IF an item is stored in a container then it's protected from the elements  :rolleyes:

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

Arma is much more refined, has the same mechanics, has vehicles, has games like King Of The Hill and lots of guns. Just saying.  

As far as I know ARMA doesn't has the player interaction we have in DayZ. Teaming up with random people can be awesome fun.

[Whyherro123 2283]

All they would need to do is adjust the loot tables. When you have an item equipped or stored in a persistent container does it degrade? If not, it shouldn't degrade when you drop it on the ground either.

Here, let us do some research.

 

Take a piece of metal, go outside, and leave it out, exposed to the elements. Check in on it in a week, and see what shape it is in.

Do the same with a bit of cloth, some wood, leather, etc.

 

Stuff degrades in real life, which is why we make new stuff. This is....rather self-explanatory.  As it is in real life, it should be in-game, or as close as it can be made possible.

 

Protip: there isn't such as thing as "persistent containers". I wouldn't store anything in a tent IRL, as they are rather fragile. Even a refrigerator is not "persistent" in the sense that the loot (food) inside will remain perfect until next access. Food is still capable of rotting in a refrigerator.

 

Hell, take a look at modern cartridge ammunition! The smokeless powder degrades over time, to the point where it becomes dangerous to use. Not even considering the degradation of the brass due to age or environmental exposure. Case in point: a couple of years back, I donated a case of "old" (couple of years, bought by my recently-deceased grandfather) .22LR ammunition to my resident Boy Scout camp. The rangemaster opened the case, took one look, said "HELL NO", fired one round, and offered to safely dispose of the remainder for me. The charge degraded to the point where it barely propelled the projectile from the barrel, accuracy was nil, and the case crumbled upon extraction.

[Whyherro123 2283]

IF an item is stored in a container then it's protected from the elements  :rolleyes:

Pretty much. 

 

An important thing to consider: NOTHING is waterproof. NOTHING. Water WILL get inside, and once it does, it will start to deteriorate EVERYTHING it touches, with the exception of glass and plastic (which is why those two materials make up such a large part of solid environmental pollutants, as they do not degrade)

[5mirkeh 98]

I share the OP's concerns, but ultimately i think it is just too early to write it off as being 'bad for the game'. we can't really make that judgement untill we see it's final iteration. i am concerned tho about it's ramifications if it ends up being done poorly or gets into release in an incomplete state.

Now THIS I can get behind

 

more people should share this kninda mentality, That is all.

[ob1korobi 125]

As far as I know ARMA doesn't has the player interaction we have in DayZ. Teaming up with random people can be awesome fun.

 

I get that. But too many people trying to make suggestions into making this game into more guns, more loot, less time to gear up and get back in the shit with other players. That isn't the point of this game. Team up and survive. Team up and defend what you have. Team up and raid other camps. Survive off what you get. You aren't entitled to loot whenever you go somewhere. 

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

I get that. But too many people trying to make suggestions into making this game into more guns, more loot, less time to gear up and get back in the shit with other players. That isn't the point of this game. Team up and survive. Team up and defend what you have. Team up and raid other camps. Survive off what you get. You aren't entitled to loot whenever you go somewhere. 

A lot of people enjoy the pvp-interactions aspect, probably a lot more than was expected. And from the devs point of view denying it and saying "But that's not the point of the game!" would not be very smart. What I suggested several times now is - why not have both? Hardcore mode for the people who enjoy searching for berries\apples, drinking from ponds (since the towns are practically empty) and having camps in the forests with the little they could find. And normal\easy mode for the people who just want to pvp, with the loot being similar to what we see now.

[harteman 155]

A lot of people enjoy the pvp-interactions aspect, probably a lot more than was expected. And from the devs point of view denying it and saying "But that's not the point of the game!" would not be very smart. What I suggested several times now is - why not have both? Hardcore mode for the people who enjoy searching for berries\apples, drinking from ponds (since the towns are practically empty) and having camps in the forests with the little they could find. And normal\easy mode for the people who just want to pvp, with the loot being similar to what we see now.

The whining answer to your question is that all the berry pickers think it will ruin "their" game, because everyone will play "ez" mode.  But if everyone wants to play a certain way because it is more fun to them, why should we cater to the minority?  Give them their berry picking mode and let us have our normal mode.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

A lot of people enjoy the pvp-interactions aspect, probably a lot more than was expected. And from the devs point of view denying it and saying "But that's not the point of the game!" would not be very smart. What I suggested several times now is - why not have both? Hardcore mode for the people who enjoy searching for berries\apples, drinking from ponds (since the towns are practically empty) and having camps in the forests with the little they could find. And normal\easy mode for the people who just want to pvp, with the loot being similar to what we see now.

Why waste resources on multiple game modes when they, Bohemia, have already created what you're looking for.  It's called Wasteland and it's on Arma 3.  

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

Why waste resources on multiple game modes when they, Bohemia, have already created what you're looking for.  It's called Wasteland and it's on Arma 3.  

There's not a lot of resources to be wasted for that. Just an "off" button for persistence to get restart based loot respawn that we already have. Forcing tomato growing\walking simulator on everyone is by no means a good idea.

[Whyherro123 2283]

The whining answer to your question is that all the berry pickers think it will ruin "their" game, because everyone will play "ez" mode.  But if everyone wants to play a certain way because it is more fun to them, why should we cater to the minority?  Give them their berry picking mode and let us have our normal mode.

What  makes you think you are the majority?

 

There's not a lot of resources to be wasted for that. Just an "off" button for persistence to get restart based loot respawn that we already have. Forcing tomato growing\walking simulator on everyone is by no means a good idea.

But....that it what the game IS. Are you not understanding the "survival" aspect of "Post-apocalyptic survival game"? 

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

There's not a lot of resources to be wasted for that. Just an "off" button for persistence to get restart based loot respawn that we already have. Forcing tomato growing\walking simulator on everyone is by no means a good idea.

Lmfao, you aren't forced to do shit.  You do not have to grow tomatoes, which will not be the only thing they are going to be adding so that already throws your game plan out the window, you aren't forced to scavenge for food.  Hell, you aren't forced to do anything in the game but don't come crying to the forums because you died from starving and freezing to death while running to a military base.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Lmfao, you aren't forced to do shit.  You do not have to grow tomatoes, which will not be the only thing they are going to be adding so that already throws your game plan out the window, you aren't forced to scavenge for food.  Hell, you aren't forced to do anything in the game but don't come crying to the forums because you died from starving and freezing to death while running to a military base.

I am willing to make a bet that that is how the majority of people complaining about survival on this forum died. 

 

Hell, there was a thread up a few days ago where the OP was complaining about starving to death while running to a military base, and wanted starvation and dehydration to take longer, almost to the point of being a non-issue.. He "didn't want to waste time looting smaller towns"

 

HAH

Edited November 25, 2014 by Whyherro123