Discussion: Barricading and Raiding

[blackberrygoo 1416]

ok, then how is a person disappearing from the universe then reappearing the next day to find his base destroyed either realsitic or authentic? What "feels" real about disappearing from the picture and having any number of things happening to your base when there's nothing you can do about it becuase you're not in the universe at the time?

Authentic, realistic, simulation, you can split hairs about definitoins all you want, and it's moot because bases being vulnerbale when you're not logged in doesn't meet any of those definitions.

And before someone says "Oh, well it simulates you being away from you base", no, it doens't. You actually being away from your base in game simulates you being away from your base, and it comes with a return - whatever loot you found when you were out, or whatever other goals you achived on your expedition. Offline time doesn't come with any benefit, yet if your base was vulnerable with you offline, you'd still be taking all the risk.

People shouldn't be punished for being offline. Imagine the kind of game DayZ would be if you were. Imagine the kinds of losers who would prevail if that were the case.

Ham sandwich I'm sorry but this game cannot cater to people who only play an hour a week .. If you don't want your base to be raided choose a low pop server , eventually I'm sure the ghosting problem will be solved by having it so people can't spawn into barricaded or player built structures they would instead spawn directly outside of it ... Not too bad of an answer sure it breaks realism a little bit but it's much better than people losing all of their hard earned work to someone that has more interest in playing !

[Bororm 1156]

I agree with Pillock, the situations DocWolf is describing sound fine to me and I don't really see the issue.  If large groups wants to take over a town, they should be able to.  There's a ton of towns, even if they pumped the server pop up to 150 (their original goal, now I think they've set their sights lower to something like 100) there's not enough groups to fully take over everything.

 

Even if you have 10 people, unless you've got some multinational crew, you're not going to be on constantly.  If say you decided to take over elektro and board up the firestations/police station or whatever, your shit is going to get broken down by some guy with an axe in the middle of the night sooner or later.

 

And if we pretend that some how a group does lock down a town and no one can shake them loose, then they deserve that.  That's part of the point of a sandbox is what you do matters.

 

I see no issue with this on public servers either.  Especially since you can just switch servers.  Don't enjoy playing one where some group has locked down cherno?  play a different one.  Gives a little flavor to the different servers at least.  There's nothing preventing an opposing group from forming/organizing any ways.

 

Part of the point of DayZ is that it's "unfair" and you have to take responsibility for yourself.  The reality is that it's completely fair, because everyone has access to the same shit.  It only seems unfair because some people are inevitably going to be better than you, or more organized, or whatever.

[scriptfactory 620]

No need for disappearing houses. They just need to add a substantial skill gate to get through locks.

 

My wishlist:

• Walls should be invulnerable.
• Door locks should take between a minute and a an hour to open, depending on shard settings and items used.
• Breaking/picking locks should also make a variable amount of noise. Lockpicks being quieter and taking more time to use. Crowbars being louder and faster.
• Optional: Flag houses with locks on them so they stop spawning loot and to prevent ghosting.
• Optional: Increase zombie respawn in areas where locks are being broken. By increasing the zombie spawn rate around a lock being opened social interaction might be needed to break through locks.

[Mor (DayZ) 57]

Ham sandwich I'm sorry but this game cannot cater to people who only play an hour a week

Neither it can cater to the unemployed or lifeless who spend 16hours a day playing, however, even in the extreme the point still stands, sometimes you need to be offline, during that time you are vulnerable to circumstances beyond your control. To deal with that your character is logged off with you, so you don't loose your hard earned progress. If 'base building' would be something more than just tent with lock, then by the same logic it should have some sort of protection.

If you don't want your base to be raided choose a low pop server

If the only way for you to maintain a base is by hiding behind pay walls(private) or on low pop servers (SPish experience in MMO) its a poor design.

• Walls should be invulnerable.
• Door locks should take between a minute and a an hour to open, depending on shard settings and items used.

[...]

You'll need something more than that, why waste an hour on a lock if I can screw with you by placing an invulnerable Wall in front of it...

Also an hour to break a lock? seems excessive, no one will spend an hour button mashing, it would limit base raiding to a very certain types of people or some "hacker" will make an external program to do it for them.

[Deathlove 2286]

The only think that could possibly irritate me about barricading is that ppl will use this to troll buildings with high loot spawns and having no way to get into our around it. Im hopping the developers give us options to break into places when when we need to rather than being screwed. Basically shooting down locked doors, using a chainsaw to bust in (Which im pretty sure is one of the main reasons a chainsaw will be put in the game in the first place), etc.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Deathlove

[scriptfactory 620]

You'll need something more than that, why waste an hour on a lock if I can screw with you by placing an invulnerable Wall in front of it...

Also an hour to break a lock? seems excessive, no one will spend an hour button mashing, it would limit base raiding to a very certain types of people or some "hacker" will make an external program to do it for them.

 

I'm assuming that base building will be well thought out and not Epoch-style. Placing invulnerable walls in the middle of nowhere doesn't even happen in Rust. But now that you mention it, I guess barricading someone in from the outside would be a pretty effective siege tactic. I hope they add it.

 

Also an hour to break a lock? seems excessive, no one will spend an hour button mashing, it would limit base raiding to a very certain types of people or some "hacker" will make an external program to do it for them.

 

High timers would encourage players to build safehouses. On "PvE" private shards this might be very interesting, especially if you can use a few grenades to open locks and break barricades. The only way to break in quickly would be loud.

[Formosity 8]

First of all this isn't a game, its a simulation. If your not there to protect you're assets, they become vulnerable as this is the nature of the simulation. This isn't Rust nor Minecraft which are ultimately designs for children.

 

 

 

lol at minecraft being designed for children, like dayz is so adult or something. I play both and both are full of children. Not attacking you but found that funny. 

[Grundlesmuggler 41]

I honestly think that it might not be put in the actual release of SA.  I'm thinking that they will populate the game files with the necessary items to "build bases", and then just let the modders handle how they want it.  I have full confidence that there will be vehicles and basic things like tents, barbed wire etc. but the extent of base building will be put on the community to help develop and "mod" the standalone.  Am I wrong to think like this?

[AlfalphaCat 66]

I think you are all looking at the uses of barricades all wrong.

 

It is not for 'saving your progress' or stashing gear.  It is for defense, versus players or zeds, not to keep all your loot safe.  I think hiding gear will work entirely different.  You shouldn't have just one base of operations either, eggs in a basket and all.

 

I also think it is silly to only barricade one building in a town, why not, as a group, fortify a section of a town.  If it is a small town block it all off, using extra vehicles, sandbags, whatever. 

 

Dayz should always be about not getting attached to your gear, but about how long you can stay alive.  These systems are being put into place for when you are playing, not to keep you perpetually geared even if offline.  It will not be the I-WIN button that most of you seem to be hoping for. 

[Grundlesmuggler 41]

Sounds like a bunch of minecraft inspired ideas to me.  Play the mod again and then talk about crafting.  A lot of great ideas/implementations there already that would be an easy port for modders of SA.

[Yokai (DayZ) 12]

 

Disorganised mobs of casuals assaulting an organised group's defences? Sounds brilliant to me! Then if the mob succeeds in taking the building, they probably start fighting amongst themselves over the loot. I think that would be hilarious and a lot of fun.

 

 

Having organised groups holding territory is absolutely what I expect DayZ to be like, eventually. If you want to live on that server, you could try trading with them, or you could stay out of their way, or you could try to form a group of your own to break their dominance. They aren't going to control the whole map, after all - there'll always be places for you to go.

 

im goin to have to agreee with pillock here, i dont think any building/wall/barricade should be invulnerable to raiding. but lasting defences are needed other wise barricading and base building will probably be abandoned by a majority of players. As grapefruit pointed out on page one i believe that AFTERMATH did a great job of balanceing defences with the abilty to break those defences. I would highly recommend anybody that hasnt played aftermath to checking out the base building system. (devs shut it down development when SA dropped so i dont think there are any servers up anymore, but check dat youtube).

 

Basicly what its goin to come down to is balance you skew in either direction could lead to alot of problems. On the one hand you have overly strong barricades, then you have people barricading barracks/ACT/etc. and/or more or less griefing. Then on the other hand you have weak barricades that are overly easy to bypass then a large portion of people would probably forget barricadeing all together if its easier and more efficient to just stash tents around the map. sure groups might barricade a building for cover but it would make anything substantial impossible, and this is where i think alot of concern and argument for this subject is born as people have different viewpoints on what building actually "means" for the player(s).

 

Are we goin to be barricading for cover or for shelter?

 

Are we going to be boarding up a room for a night then move on or barricading a building to comeback to, something you continue to add to, something that becomes more the a house but a home. I would personally like to believe the latter of that, and with the work being done on horticulture i believe i'm in the same boat as the devs. but just my opinion in the end till we start getting more information.

 

(btws /wave grapefruit im sorry i shot you in cherno #AFTERMATHSERVERUS1 D:)

 

edit: but more on topic im more or less in the "tough shit" crowd, if you dont want your shit raided while your offline hide it some where good.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Yokai

[Mor (DayZ) 57]

Disorganised mobs of casuals assaulting an organised group's defences? Sounds brilliant to me! Then if the mob succeeds in taking the building, they probably start fighting amongst themselves over the loot. I think that would be hilarious and a lot of fun.

That a pretty label for your base becoming bandit KOS central. It would certainly make raiding interesting, although I don't see how anyone else would benefit from the experience e.g. "Heroes" and medics already have target on their, without being bait.

 

High timers would encourage players to build safehouses. On "PvE" private shards this might be very interesting, especially if you can use a few grenades to open locks and break barricades. The only way to break in quickly would be loud.

If all it would take is a few grenades, then your high timers would only encourage brute force tactics (I mean, really an hour click fest to force a lock?!)

Also for the purpose of this discussion private shards do not exist. If the you can't come up with viable mechanic for public, don't expect the devs to spend any time on it...

 

I'm assuming that base building will be well thought out and not Epoch-style. Placing invulnerable walls in the middle of nowhere doesn't even happen in Rust. But now that you mention it, I guess barricading someone in from the outside would be a pretty effective siege tactic. I hope they add it.

Are you certain? because you just suggested High timers i.e. it will take me much longer to break in, than for you to build your defenses. So without any other measures in place, it would work the other way around, and I can troll you by barricading your entrance, forcing you to waste hours to get in/out..

Also I strongly recommend not to dismiss any game, but look\learn at their underlying mechanics and see how they apply here.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Mor

[Mor (DayZ) 57]

As grapefruit pointed out on page one i believe that AFTERMATH did a great job of balanceing defences with the abilty to break those defences. I would highly recommend anybody that hasnt played aftermath to checking out the base building system.

I agree, and several people suggest similar mechanics. Although others had issues with some of them.

 

Are we goin to be barricading for cover or for shelter?

 

Are we going to be boarding up a room for a night then move on or barricading a building to comeback to, something you continue to add to, something that becomes more the a house but a home. I would personally like to believe the latter of that, and with the work being done on horticulture i believe i'm in the same boat as the devs. but just my opinion in the end till we start getting more information.

Unless there is some info about future features that I am unaware off, I still believe that the current plans for barricading are nothing but tent with a lock hidden in plain sight. Have anyone seen anything else... like the ability to barricade vital buildings, or base building elements in AFTERMATH?

[The Feral Kid 13]

Regarding authenticity vs. realism.  

 

As I understand it, "authenticity" tries to ensure that players go through roughly the same thought processes as a real person would in the same scenario.  If you are going for authenticity then actual realism is not that important, as long as players have to weigh up the appropriate options.

 

So when a player finds a barricaded shack in the woods, they need to think:

• What is in this stash?
• How long will it take me to break in?
• Do I have the tools I need?
• Will the owner show up and waste me before I am finished?
• Is it worth the risk?

They should NOT be thinking things like:

• This is a US server and the owner is probably logged off because it is 4am in the states.

Likewise, a player logging out should absolutely NOT be weighing up meta game concepts like:

• When will I next be able to log on? 

In effect what I am suggesting is that, if authenticity is the goal, then logging out should be a "transparent" choice that (as much as possible) has zero effect on gameplay and does not need to be considered at all.  The reason for this is that a real survivor would never spend any time considering the pros and cons of logging out.  This applies in all situations, but is particularly relevant here in regards to bases.

 

EDIT: some punctuation.

Edited October 21, 2014 by The Feral Kid

[alsmir 255]

If you have limited time to play and protect your stuff you don't make a bloody base in the middle of Cherno and hope it logs out with you.

 

You go deep into the woods, then a bit deeper to the parts than nobody visits and you hide a tent or backpack in there. Sure, it's in the middle of nowhere, far away from any interesting spots, but you got a better chance that not even a random deer will find your crap.

[DocWolf 146]

I think you are all looking at the uses of barricades all wrong.

 

It is not for 'saving your progress' or stashing gear.  It is for defense, versus players or zeds, not to keep all your loot safe.  I think hiding gear will work entirely different.  You shouldn't have just one base of operations either, eggs in a basket and all.

AlfalphaCat hit the core of the issue, I think.

While I understand why so many people want to see permanent (or semi-permanent) player bases in DayZ, IMHO that's not the direction the developers are heading towards. AlfalphaCat is asking a very meaningful question: are bases going to be hard-to-break "safe zones" where you can regroup, organize and stash your items like in Epoch? Or are they going to be temporary hideouts you use to defend yourself or to gain a temporary tactical advantage?

In EXP 0.50 we're testing the first iterations of "reinforcing" buildings: when you lockpick a door previously "locked" by another player, you don't waste 10 minutes to do so - and certaintly not an hour. If you don't have a lockpick you can "force" it open with brute force...some punches, a single hit with an heavy melee weapon (axe, maul, machete) or a single shot from a firearm. You don't need to pry it open with time, sweat and noise. This suggest me the developers are looking at player bases as something extremely situational/temporary; not something more or less permanent where you can hide your stuff and organize your group.

As a side note, I'm still sure that in a game like DayZ the best "permanent base" is a simple camping tent. You can stash some items inside it and keep it way, way, WAY off the beaten path. RBeing able to elocate it often in different, hard to reach places is an invaluable asset from a security point of view. But I understand why single tents or small encampments aren't really interesting for many players...a secured, boarded house have more visual grip and looks more badass.

Edited October 21, 2014 by DocWolf