The 'war on snipers'

[pilgrim* 3514]

I think it is a good thing to be honest.

 

Sniping is not something that involves just pointing a crosshair at a target and killing it instantly. It requires practise and training. I'd say the sway is an approximation of the fact that people in DayZ are not elite snipers. I don't think point and click sniping is realistic or authentic.

 

The only problem with sway is they used the wrong maths to generate it. Someone just grabbed a standard formuma for simple harmonic motion - it's the kind of thing any programmer would do because its a readymade function and you just plug it in

 

BUT that kind of motion has nothing to do with the human experience of centering on a target. it works works on the WRONG physics.

 

I'm NOT saying "reduce the sway" AT ALL - I'm saying just look at how it works, and NOTICE that it is not "like" aiming down a real scope - BUT with NOT MUCH EFFORT there is a much better way of keeping that sway, AND making it much more realistic. Much more like the real (difficult) action of a sniper aiming at a point.

 

BUT it's a maths solution, and I think only a few people have any idea what I'm talking about - However, I KNOW there are smart people out there... go and check out the facts, and see what you think:

 

(and see if it makes sense to ya)      http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/206630-sway-function-math-suggestion/#entry2072241

 

xx pilgrim

Edited September 17, 2014 by pilgrim

[TyrDaishi 36]

Before changing the actual shooting other things need to be changed imho. See my past posts in this thread. Quick question: Are height differences (hence the angle) taken into account at all while shooting in the current versions of dayz / arma II?

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

OP, because aiming guns in video games is trivial.

[gibonez 3633]

Before changing the actual shooting other things need to be changed imho. See my past posts in this thread. Quick question: Are height differences (hence the angle) taken into account at all while shooting in the current versions of dayz / arma II?

 

It is.

[TyrDaishi 36]

It is.

 

"It is" is a shitty response btw. Where is the factual proof?

 

So is their a formula for this ? 20 meters above target equals less drop equal of 10 mm in scope or something?

 

And will the range finder take this into account and give the correct distance to the target or will the range finder only work on the two dimensional axis yx ?

Edited September 18, 2014 by TyrDaishi

[Xbow 362]

A wannabe sniper that pops individuals for no purpose just because he can get away with it clean and without risk is nothing more than a cowardly worm. Snipers are important in a team situation where you have a sniper covering the movement of the team from a good position and zaps the opposition so that his team can do some power looting, eliminate bandits or take over the area. Those have a purpose has a purpose and that's just Jim dandy. The other kind, the worms can get bent. I killed a worm-sniper by chance a few weeks ago. I didn't know the Idiot was on top of the tower and climbed the ladder to find a moron with tunnel vision in a prone position packing a Mosin with a long range scope in full military gear. He was searching for some poor sap to shoot for shits-and-giggles. I was hard to believe that the stupid bitch never saw me approach the building never heard me climb the ladders. I watched him for a second and said "you're in trouble" and then pumped some .45 slugs into him. You could never do that to a good sniper..that was a worm with his head up his arse....the predominant type that calls himself a sniper. 

 

There is a war on snipers? Horse shyte, they should make sniping (500m and UP) tougher than it is and include variable wind drift into the equation. 

[Exorade 214]

A wannabe sniper that pops individuals for no purpose just because he can get away with it clean and without risk is nothing more than a cowardly worm. Snipers are important in a team situation where you have a sniper covering the movement of the team from a good position and zaps the opposition so that his team can do some power looting, eliminate bandits or take over the area. Those have a purpose has a purpose and that's just Jim dandy. The other kind, the worms can get bent. I killed a worm-sniper by chance a few weeks ago. I didn't know the Idiot was on top of the tower and climbed the ladder to find a moron with tunnel vision in a prone position packing a Mosin with a long range scope in full military gear. He was searching for some poor sap to shoot for shits-and-giggles. I was hard to believe that the stupid bitch never saw me approach the building never heard me climb the ladders. I watched him for a second and said "you're in trouble" and then pumped some .45 slugs into him. You could never do that to a good sniper..that was a worm with his head up his arse....the predominant type that calls himself a sniper.

 

Jesus, you're one bitter man.

[Xbow 362]

Jesus, you're one bitter man.

Not at all exorade. Having only been killed by a sniper just once a long time ago  I don't know how I could be bitter. Now I know that is just my good luck that I have only been greased once by a sniper but I have been shot at by plenty by worms. I simply don't admire bottom feeders that habitually shoot other players for sport. But with that said I have done the same thing the worms do..many times (kinda makes me a worm)  but I can't say I'm proud of it.

 

But seriously if we are going to have weapons that have <1min accuracy then we should up the stakes and require those that desire to be insulated by range to work for it. Sniping isn't really as easy as lining up the sights and pulling the trigger.

 

Example: At 900 yards a 170 grain slug from a Mosin that left the muzzle at 2700fps where:

a 10mph left to right crosswind exists,

Zero range is 300 yards

Altitude = Sea Level.

 the slug does this;

 

•964 fps velocity remaining 

•351 foot pounds of energy remaining (appx the power of a 9mm pistol)

•Bullet drop at 900 is -385 inches or (32 feet)......corrective action, add 12 mils of elevation 

•Horizontal displacement due to wind is 145 inches to the right (12 feet).....corrective action, aim left 4.5 mils

 

Even a gentle 5mph wind at 900 moves that bullet 6 feet from the POA.  

 

The shooters trigger pull, spot weld, follow through, and grip can not be evaluated by the program so we are left with just range estimation, the application of that range data, and wind aim off data. To reduce the shot to just a correct range setting makes it too easy for someone with a tac driver as it is unrealistic. And then there is ammunition quality, what we have in the game is standard military ball ammunition (Crap) so to actually get the accuracy needed to reach out to 800 to 1000 consistently Match ammunition is the key. So yes its too easy the way it is now. They can develop a real ballistics program or they can take a shortcut and just expand the dispersion area a bit as they have done.   

Edited September 18, 2014 by Xbow

[GhostDivision (DayZ) 22]

Sniping should be harder not easier. It's an absolute joke tbh.

[Xbow 362]

Sniping should be harder not easier. It's an absolute joke tbh.

That's my point exactly bro. These guys want a rifle with ZERO dispersion, they  want a Zero wobble zone, they want it easy. And how much would they cry if they instituted a Cold Shot anomaly? Like I said if they are going to enjoy the safety of killing at long distance they should earn it. They should search for rare match ammo that comes in low count boxes and must be pristine for those +600-700yard shots, maintain their weapon with a kit often.

 

Have some beans :beans:        

[GhostDivision (DayZ) 22]

That's my point exactly bro. These guys want a rifle with ZERO dispersion, they  want a Zero wobble zone, they want it easy. And how much would they cry if they instituted a Cold Shot anomaly? Like I said if they are going to enjoy the safety of killing at long distance they should earn it. They should search for rare match ammo that comes in low count boxes and must be pristine for those +600-700yard shots, maintain their weapon with a kit often.

 

Have some beans :beans:        

 

Special high-grade ammo is definitely a great idea. Would mean that they would have to make every shot count.

[Xbow 362]

Special high-grade ammo is definitely a great idea. Would mean that they would have to make every shot count.

Its something we need in the game I think. Match Ammo is required for accuracy. Standard stuff has a random error of  about 2 Minutes of angle, a damn good rifle has about 1 minute of angle accuracy so if the shooter is perfect, the range is perfect, and the wind adjustment is perfect and you are shooting standard stuff  that will give a best case random error of  3 three minutes of angel or:

a 3" group at 100,

a 6" group at 200,

a 9" group at 300,

a 12" group at 400

a 15" group at 500

a 18" group at 600

a 21" group at 700

a 24" group at 800

a 27" group at 900

and a 30" group at 1000

 

with match ammo with a 1/2 minute accuracy you get exactly 1/2 the group size  1.5" at 100 out to 15" at 1000. And I think that they should have a match bolt, match firing pin, match trigger and a precision precision bedding kit that the would be sniper would need to find and apply, and a worn scope should be less accurate than a pristine scope.  

 

Just some thoughts

[gibonez 3633]

Somethings cannot be simulated in game some things like sight alignment, trigger pull check weld and many others.

 

What should happen is the game should simulate what it can in order to add some depth and difficulty to long range shooting.

 

 

Even one single addition would have a monumental impact on sniping and player behavior.

 

Getting rid of the elevation adjustment system of 100m would have a huge huge impact on gameplay.

 

Something as simple as removing the easy mode 100m increments and then forcing people to either generate their own range cards or learn hold overs would discourage 9/10 snipers from even attempting a shot from 300 yards or more.

 

 

The beauty of such a system is that it does not punish the competent player it in fact gives him much more control a player with a mil/moa system would be able to hit those precise shots at any range no longer held back by the generalized elevation system.

 

This tiny simple addition would fundamentally change the game for the better.

 

For such a system to work Russian made scopes that generalize ranges like the pso scope should be calibrated for 7.62x54r out of a svd thus the elevation adjustments when mounted on a akm or ak 101 are completely off.

 

The pu scope on the sks should they keep it should also be completely off.

 

Due to the nature of the game that is still being developed they can add this simple feature and test it out.

 

Not test out the players reactions to it but instead test out player behavior, how people are dying around the map and most importantly how efficient players are with sniper rifles.

 

What should happen is people will ignore scoped rifles accross the board due to not willing to learn how to use them and would instead just pvp to their hearts content from close range. While at the same time those that learn and use the scoped weapons should see their accuracy increase due to the added control of the weapons.

[flimsypremise 94]

And just to reiterate, you could have the highest quality match grade ammo and the Moisin wouldn't be able to hit shit with any accuracy past maybe 250-300m because it's a mass-produced, WWI era infantry weapon.

[gibonez 3633]

And just to reiterate, you could have the highest quality match grade ammo and the Moisin wouldn't be able to hit shit with any accuracy past maybe 250-300m because it's a mass-produced, WWI era infantry weapon.

 

Correct.

 

The problem with mosins is not only time the problem is they were never built for accuracy instead built for reliability.

 

The in game mosin is far too accurate, it should be a 4 to 5 moa gun.

[pale1776 375]

There

And no mosin ammo is not very rare, not that you need more than 40-60 of them anyway, and that's if you live long enough.

Not to mention that shooting at 500m should be difficult, since you are holding the rifle in your hands, it's not rested on something. It's not like in the move "Shooter" when the guy stands on a fucking boat on a middle of lake holding a rifle in his hands and lands head shots.

Damage absorption and any dispersion are a different story.

I can land shots on a man-sized target from the bed of my.pickup goin 20, but I shoot almost 50-100 rounds nearly every day.

And in Shooter, he was a Sniper for Marine Force Recon. The DayZ guys are average Joes (until someone mentions PTSD since theyre not trained killers, then its ruining their RP immersion as a serial killer) who arent trained to control their breath, slow their heartbeat, and find the best shooting position.

I agree with you, Im just sayin that I and others can actually pull shots like that off.

+1 Zod.

[pale1776 375]

Repeating yourself and stirring in some personal attacks isn't the same thing as making a new argument. Please submit some points I haven't already countered.

What's your argument exactly? There's too much sway?

Fix your fucking arm, then come back and talk to me. Aside from 7.62 damage being shitty and taking 3-4 body shots to kill a fully geared player, I think sniping is fine. I also agree about making the MOA accurate to real life.. I'd be fine with that. But you don't want to get into an argument with me about weapon sway. I'm sitting in TS with a US Marine at the moment.

Sniping is inherently imbalanced. You can't deny it. Stop talking out of your ass.

My argument is accessible in the OP if you need to refer back to it. The sway is far too much whether you have perfectly healthy arms or not, and no amount of appeals to authority (your marine friend) will change the fact that long rifles DO NOT behave like that in real life. There is almost zero sway, and truly zero if there is a bipod involved or it is propped up against some mounded earth.

The only argument you have any hope of succeeding with is that sniping needs to remain gimped for balance reasons, because realism is absolutely not on your side in this case. And the fact is that sniping was balanced well in the mod. An important point is that in the mod, assault rifles could return fire accurately on snipers and suppress or kill them, while there's no hope of that in the standalone because of the sway and dispersion.

Are you retarded?

Sway is not the weapon, ITS YOUR BODY DUMBASS.

I sometimes take up to a minute stabilizing myself, controlling my breathing and heartbeat before I take a 1000 yard shot.

You know what, I sat my gun down just now, and he didnt sway. That little bugger ALWAYS sways when Im walking through the woods for 4 hours with my pack and rifle. I guess it just sways on purpose to mess me up...

NOT

Sway is caused by the movement of blood throughout your body, your breathing, your heartbeat and your natural unsteadiness, and fatigue. Now, DayZ is where you have all that, but now add dehydration, hunger, triple the fatigue and add adrenaline.

I can control all that, as can snipers and competitive shooters (which I am [Competitive, not Sniper]) because WE TRAINED AND CONDITIONED OURSELVES FOR THIS.

My longest shot was 1300 yards with a .308 Ruger American Rifle. I spent 3 minutes preparing for that shot.

My longest with my Mosin? 600. Why? Its a WWI rifle made to do its job, nothing more. It sucks, I hate to say.it as I LOVE my.Mosin, but truth is... Helen Keller would have better luck with a Berretta.

Now kind sir, next time you wanna pull bullshit out your ass, think about the people here who ARENT 13 year old codkiddies, and actually KNOW HOW THESE THINGS WORK.

*Oh, and add Coriolis effect, temperature, humidity, speed of the target, speed of your round, distanxe to target, and the shifting wind at those ranges.

[Judopunch 523]

The only problem with sway is they used the wrong maths to generate it. Someone just grabbed a standard formuma for simple harmonic motion - it's the kind of thing any programmer would do because its a readymade function and you just plug it in

 

BUT that kind of motion has nothing to do with the human experience of centering on a target. it works works on the WRONG physics.

 

I'm NOT saying "reduce the sway" AT ALL - I'm saying just look at how it works, and NOTICE that it is not "like" aiming down a real scope - BUT with NOT MUCH EFFORT there is a much better way of keeping that sway, AND making it much more realistic. Much more like the real (difficult) action of a sniper aiming at a point.

 

BUT it's a maths solution, and I think only a few people have any idea what I'm talking about - However, I KNOW there are smart people out there... go and check out the facts, and see what you think:

 

(and see if it makes sense to ya)      http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/206630-sway-function-math-suggestion/#entry2072241

 

xx pilgrim

the 'sway' your talking about is just dispersion without animation.

[Xbow 362]

Correct.

 

The problem with mosins is not only time the problem is they were never built for accuracy instead built for reliability.

 

The in game mosin is far too accurate, it should be a 4 to 5 moa gun.

I agree. The in game M1891/30 Mosin Nagant is not even the same animal that Russian snipers used, so your estimate of an accuracy of 4 to 5moa sounds about right for those production line hogs.

 

The Red Army pulled perfect specimens of the Model 1891/30 from the production lines and handed those over to gunsmiths to be modified as sniper rifles. The Gunsmiths:

1) reconfigured the bolt handle to make room for a telescopic sight (the PU mostly), 

2) Mounted the scopes

3) Lightened the trigger to about 5.5lbs,

4) Replaced the stocks with one made of superior wood that was sealed against water absorption,

5) mated the stock to the rifle action in a precise way to prevent chucking, bounce and harmonic imbalance.  

6) Trued and polished the actions and bolt.

 

In the end the Russians produced a rifle that had an average accuracy of 1.5MOA  to 2 MOA. Not to shabby when 600 yards was considered to be a long but doable shot. That's about a 9" to 12" group at that range.  The Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 sniper rifles remained in Soviet use until replaced by the Dragunov SVD in 1963.

 

However, the notion that the PU scope would be off  if it were to be mounted to  something other than a Mosin Nagant in 7.62 x 54r is incorrect. IT is incorrect because the PU scope has a non ballistic reticle that is not matched to any particular cartridge. Any adjustments must be made by the shooter that must use his intimate knowledge of the bullets trajectory to score hits beyond the rifles battle-sight range. But I agree the PSO-1's ballistic data is tuned ONLY to the 7.62 x 54r not the 7.62 x 39, the 5.56 x 45, or the 5.45 x 39. Yes it would be all fucked up.  

 

With a 350 yard Zero A Mosin Nagant has a battle sight range of 450 yards (meaning that if the shooter aims at the breast bone and the target is between zero and 450yds distant he will hit the target somewhere between the head and groin. To compensate for wind and range beyond 450 yards  the shooter must hold Left, Right ,or Hold over. To get a hit at 800 with a PU scope and Mosin combination the shooter would have to  hold over from the breast bone 170 inches or  2  and 1/3 full body forms (target height) and to compensate for a 10mph Left to Right Wind Hold left  from the breast bone  2 and 3/4 body forms (shoulder spans). That's some good Kentucky windage or SWAGing (Scientific Wild Ass Guessing). Yeah Mr. gibonez I agree, sniping at long range should be a bit tougher than it is. 

 

But about all the Devs can do is require the shooter to use match grade ammunition, and solve the range and wind problems. Because those problems must be solved in the shooters head we would be exposed to a great deal  less idiot bragging about head-shots at 1000 yards with the super snipers trusty old Mosin.

 

A weapon that offers some interesting possibilities at ranges between Zero and 500 yards would be the CZ 527 with a  simple fixed 4x scope, with a DualX reticle, wide field of view, and internal elevation adjustment (assume an exposed elevation turret) in increments of  50 yards out to 400 yards. The shooter would have to make the correct range adjustment and the correct wind call and adjustment. And the Blaze could also be graced with a similar scope.

 

Note: For the CZ527 you could use a zero of 200 yards and that would give you a battle-sight range of 300yards. To get a hit at 500 you would have to index 400yards and hold over the targets breast bone by about 58 inches  or 80% of a full standing body form. 

 

Should they introduce some modern high tech sniper rifles like Remington tactical model 700s with 1/2 MOA accuracy...fuck no.  Should the introduce the SVD? Yes but in small numbers.   

Edited September 19, 2014 by Xbow

[Monkeyrama 4]

I think it is a good thing to drop the % of Snipers in DayZ Standalone.

 

On my opionion about 90% of them are just poor fearful losers that need to kill people about 500+ meters because they are afraid of dying and don't want to engage anyone else in this game.

 

If you guys wanna Snipe, go play Battlefield or Call of Duty.

[gibonez 3633]

However, the notion that the PU scope would be off  if it were to be mounted to  something other than a Mosin Nagant in 7.62 x 54r is incorrect. IT is incorrect because the PU scope has a non ballistic reticle that is not matched to any particular cartridge. Any adjustments must be made by the shooter that must use his intimate knowledge of the bullets trajectory to score hits beyond the rifles battle-sight range. But I agree the PSO-1's ballistic data is tuned ONLY to the 7.62 x 54r not the 7.62 x 39, the 5.56 x 45, or the 5.45 x 39. Yes it would be all fucked up.  

 

 

 

The elevation adjustments on the pu scope are not universal however. They go up to 1300m and have to have follow some kind of ballistic trajectory.

 

I assumed this was 7.62x54r

[pilgrim* 3514]

the 'sway' your talking about is just dispersion without animation.

 

the sway I'm talking about is the animation. The sway is an animation. Where the bullet goes when you pull the trigger depends on the point where the animation has put the crosshair when you fire.

 

THEN there is dispersion and bullet drop.. those are formula in the server used to calculate bullet deviation. In this game, neither of them is a complicated function..

 

 

                                                      BUT

[this is the big but

But it's about the way a human being aims... (not deviation, not the gun) The programmers got human aiming wrong ("sway" - not too big or too small) just wrong, for a really obvious reason, anyone - me too - could make the same mistake

The solution could be so much fun, good for the player, particularly the military specialist players, and unique to DayZ, or all ArmA - as well as this being a first for Bohemia,

because NO other game builder has THOUGHT about this yet, and so

no one has realized how fun, unique, cool, more realistic, and how easy to implement and test, this is, and what a major first it is]

 

 

A human being aiming a gun at a target is a complicated process.. I explained on the thread, I gave you the link http://forums.dayzga...n/#entry2072241

 

To a very limited  extent that targeting process can be modelled in a video game

 

HOWEVER

 

The programmer who wrote in the "sway" used a standard function to move the crosshair around center target

 

By 'standard function' I mean a classic mathematical formula that almost anyone can find anywhere .. it's used, for instance, to plot the trajectory of an object in orbit. around a planet,

the earth around the sun, and ... plenty of other stuff, . ya know ??

 

BUT

 

It's the WRONG formula to use for the 'sway' in the game. It's not a formula that imitates human targeting, in fact it does the opposite. I explained on the thread, I gave you the link again, below

 

If you've ever aimed a gun at a target, or pointed your finger at a passing car...and if you

1: use a scope in the game

2: AND you think a little bit

 

You should be able to figure easily what I'm talking about. A small difference in the formula (a rethink) - would affect DayZ and ALL the ArmA series. This could be an interesting and game-enhancing change. I'm convince (for sure - I worked out the math and tested it)

 

What I explain is VERY easy to test out. Try it. (and for sure you'll understand why "sway" has nothing to do with "dispersion") Same gun always has same dispersion, but the same gun used by different people.. well, every one of them has a different aiming strategy, and every one of them has a different average accuracy.... THAT'S aiming, that's "sway".. not the gun.

 

AND it' very easy to understand what I'm talking aout on that thread- WHY the formula needs changing - (not making sway smaller, not making sniping easier, nothing about that stuff)) 

I gave you the link   http://forums.dayzga...n/#entry2072241    .... Even if you don't like maths .. ya don't need any ....  you just have to GET the POINT about HOW a human being aims a gun.

You probably did it yourself a 1000 times, and pointed at a spot on the wall, and fired a bow ...

So think how you did that stuff, and what was going n in your head and your body while you did it.  Try it out. If you can remember doing that, and check out that what I say makes sense.

 

xx pilgrim

[Xbow 362]

gibonez said, "The elevation adjustments on the pu scope are not universal however. They go up to 1300m and have to have follow some kind of ballistic trajectory.

 

I assumed this was 7.62x54r"

 

 

 

Good Assumption. PU scope's internal correction system (elevation and deflection turrets)  is more primitive than most but also extremely resistant to rough handling. As for how the turrets are graduated I know the windage drum is calibrated in Mils and the elevation drum in 100m increments as you said. So the elevation drum is tuned to a single loading of the 7.62 x 54r cartridge. But that has nothing to with the type of reticle it has. Since no  range data is etched into the reticle it is non-ballistic. However the elevation drum would be useless or less useful for its intended purpose of quick elevation adjustment on a rifle that fires something other than the 7.62 x 54r. However the scope would work for other calibers but would not have full function as far as the elevation drum is concerned. 

 

As you know putting a PU scope on a Mosin Nagant is not a Plug and Play operation. You may have to do some grinding or shimming. The Devs could work that angle to prevent proliferation of Mosin Nagant sniper rifles as without shimming or grinding you could end up with a sight picture like this:

 

 

 

 

 

Sighting In A Mosin Nagant Sniper Rifle. (IMHO what a pain in the ass! I have a Mosin Nagan M44 carbine but I had a commercial side mount scope base installed and use a  4x Weaver Classic K-Series scope  

 

http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper%20section/mosin-nagant-sighting.asp

 

You simply must have a Can of Beans :beans:

Edited September 19, 2014 by Xbow