An Easy Way to Explain Alpha - my favorite topic

[Mark Darkers 151]

This post makes so much sense, the frying pan comparison made it very good to understand. This should become a sticky, as most people have a deformed idea of what a game in alpha stage really is.

[RAM-bo4250 213]

Do you want the blank to eventually become a frying pan? Well, in order for this to happen, they need constructive feedback, not blind followers. 

Timing is everything. Now is not the time to complain about the shape of the handle. The handle ain't on yet. I will give constructive criticism when it is appropriate. To criticize a game when it's not even a game yet is silly.

[WhiteZero 72]

Then if you are correct, they really should have just purchased a ready made engine and just have artists add similar models. Because if this is the engine rebuild to date after 8 months than we are in for a very long haul my friends.

You have to consider that this is Bohemia Interactive, they've made their own engines before, why would they outsource the engine when they can make it purpose built? It might take more time, but it better support the team's vision.

[hothtimeblues 128]

You have to consider that this is Bohemia Interactive, they've made their own engines before, why would they outsource the engine when they can make it purpose built? It might take more time, but it better support the team's vision.

If we consider that Bohemia is truly interested in completing Dayz as a final release than you are correct that they would do it themselves. I'll give them 6 more months but if I don't notice any core improvement after 14 total months then it can only mean bad things about any hope for a final release.

In other words, not adding things onto of the clunky core, but actually improvements of the core that will give them the ability to really add dynamic elements to the game.

Everyone says Alpha is for adding stuff only, but this core is so bad, they can't truly add any dynamic elements to the game because it can't currently handle anything else. If you can't have more than 2 zombies in a city, how can they add alpha elements into the game.

I would be OK with zero update between now and 6 months so they can rebuild the actual core well enough so they can add cool elements for testing afterwords. Wouldn't that make for a better final product?

This is what us small minority of Dayz Fans are trying to explain but keep getting called out as idiots or petulant children. I only want DayZ to succeed but can't for the life of me understand why since 2012 there has been almost zero core work done on the mod or the stand alone. Anyone can tell that adding the persistent loot or respawning loot was the final straw ontop of the broken core. Months have been lost or will be lost because until the core has major updates, we are stuck in limbo.

Edited September 5, 2014 by hothtimeblues

[reuben5150 83]

An easier way http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

[chepaco3290 59]

Let me ask you something. Do you say to your children (if they aren't old enough yet), "hey you need to learn to drive." No, you  don't because it's not age appropiate. 

 

Of course I don't. But, unlike you, I don't pretend like my kids are perfect and "can do no wrong" as you so boldly declared. My kids do mess up, and when they do, they get a good whooping. I'm also aware that I was raised the same way, and I owe my success to the fact that my parents didn't spoil me and pretend like I was just a "blank" that had no problems whatsoever. I received my fair share of whoopings, and it helped me become the successful person that I am.

 

If you want this game to be successful, you need to speak out against the homers and fanboys just as rigorously as you speak out against others because they are just as nonconstructive as the ignorant complainers. 

[chepaco3290 59]

Timing is everything. Now is not the time to complain about the shape of the handle. The handle ain't on yet. I will give constructive criticism when it is appropriate. To criticize a game when it's not even a game yet is silly.

 

Sorry, but it IS a game. It is an Early Access Game, according to Steam. And the only way for this game to grow is for it to be criticized, not coddled. 

[WhiteZero 72]

If we consider that Bohemia is truly interested in completing Dayz as a final release than you are correct that they would do it themselves. I'll give them 6 more months but if I don't notice any core improvement after 14 total months then it can only mean bad things about any hope for a final release.

In other words, not adding things onto of the clunky core, but actually improvements of the core that will give them the ability to really add dynamic elements to the game.

Everyone says Alpha is for adding stuff only, but this core is so bad, they can't truly add any dynamic elements to the game because it can't currently handle anything else. If you can't have more than 2 zombies in a city, how can they add alpha elements into the game.

I would be OK with zero update between now and 6 months so they can rebuild the actual core well enough so they can add cool elements for testing afterwords. Wouldn't that make for a better final product?

 

The core server and engine components are being constantly worked on. Like I've pointed out several times, there are dedicated teams for this work. Do you want the texture artists, modelers, sound engineers, gameplay scripters, etc to stop what their doing until the core is totally bugfixed and optimized? Because that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

As Eugen has said when asked about the status of these core modules:

 

 

I see the snowball effect already happening. Understand though we will get these modules (as in Animation,AI,Sensors,Sound,Particles etc.) one at a time. They take a lot of mandays, and me making a guess is almost the same as making a promise. And Im not at a point where I feel confident enough to make those unless Im 100% sure. What I can say is that I know we will get there. The team is strong, and growth hurdles are mostly gone. We`re in for the long haul and want to see this game flourish down the road.

 

It. Takes. Time. And content production should not stop during that time.

Edited September 5, 2014 by WhiteZero

[RAM-bo4250 213]

If we consider that Bohemia is truly interested in completing Dayz as a final release than you are correct that they would do it themselves. I'll give them 6 more months but if I don't notice any core improvement after 14 total months then it can only mean bad things about any hope for a final release.

In other words, not adding things onto of the clunky core, but actually improvements of the core that will give them the ability to really add dynamic elements to the game.

Everyone says Alpha is for adding stuff only, but this core is so bad, they can't truly add any dynamic elements to the game because it can't currently handle anything else. If you can't have more than 2 zombies in a city, how can they add alpha elements into the game.

I would be OK with zero update between now and 6 months so they can rebuild the actual core well enough so they can add cool elements for testing afterwords. Wouldn't that make for a better final product?

This is what us small minority of Dayz Fans are trying to explain but keep getting called out as idiots or petulant children. I only want DayZ to succeed but can't for the life of me understand why since 2012 there has been almost zero core work done on the mod or the stand alone. Anyone can tell that adding the persistent loot or respawning loot was the final straw ontop of the broken core. Months have been lost or will be lost because until the core has major updates, we are stuck in limbo.

But Hoth, these are your conclusions. It's all conjecture on your part. You are not in the know. We don't exactly know what's going on behind the scenes. I'm an intelligent person but I can't speak on things I do not know. I have to give you beans however, that you are willing to wait and see. That is all that one can ask.

[hothtimeblues 128]

To Helicopter Hunter..

You provided words. I'm talking about results. LIke I said, 6 more months and I think that is reasonable to see major core updates compared to the opening alpha stand alone. That willl be a total of 14 months since the hugely successful and well funded alpha launched. I'm not disagreeing with you by the way. I agree that it does take time to fix such a large complex project.

But if we still have the same desync, ambient sounds, awkward controls, unresponsive hot keys, hackable loopholes, and laughably broken zombies that hit you after you shot them dead... hit you while facing backwards..... and hit you from 16 feet away..... If I still see this after the 14 month milestone....

Then honestly, can you really believe they will have been working on the core since January 2013 when they made the announcement that they had to?

Edited September 5, 2014 by hothtimeblues

[hothtimeblues 128]

But Hoth, these are your conclusions. It's all conjecture on your part. You are not in the know. We don't exactly know what's going on behind the scenes. I'm an intelligent person but I can't speak on things I do not know. I have to give you beans however, that you are willing to wait and see. That is all that one can ask.

Good point. You are correct. I'm not sure about what I'm talking about. And I value your opinion just as much as my own. I got mad respect for fellow Dayz Fans and I apologize if I come off as a dick to the Dayz project or other fans. I need to chill sometimes.

I hope the admins and everyone can forgive my bullshit if I can be better about what I say.

[RAM-bo4250 213]

Sorry, but it IS a game. It is an Early Access Game, according to Steam. And the only way for this game to grow is for it to be criticized, not coddled. 

Sorry, but no, it is not a game. It is an Alpha build. Just like the blank is not a frying pan. Yet. Beta, on the other hand, is a totally new ball of wax.Then you have a pretty well established frying pan. Now you can complain why the middle isn't heating like the sides. Do you criticize your children for not behaving as young adults? When they are young adults you can criticize them for doing childish things. Not until. 

[WhiteZero 72]

To Helicopter Hunter..

You provided words. I'm talking about results. LIke I said, 6 more months and I think that is reasonable to see major core updates compared to the opening alpha stand alone. That willl be a total of 14 months since the hugely successful and well funded alpha launched. I'm not disagreeing with you by the way. I agree that it does take time to fix such a large complex project.

But if we still have the same desync, ambient sounds, awkward controls, unresponsive hot keys, hackable loopholes, and laughably broken zombies that hit you after you shot them dead... hit you while facing backwards..... and hit you from 16 feet away..... If I still see this after the 14 month milestone....

Then honestly, can you really believe they will have been working on the core since January 2013 when they made the announcement that they had to?

Helicopter Hunter is my current title, my username is WhiteZero.  :)

 

Yes, I've provided words, the words of the developers. We've seen various results from them in this time, from 64-bit servers, to navmesh, physics and ragdoll, etc. The thing is, these are relatively small implementations that don't take nearly as many manhours as the changes that are still coming down the pipe. And 9 months is nothing in terms of engine development.

 

"Then honestly, can you really believe they will have been working on the core since January 2013" Yes, because you're otherwise calling them lairs and I have no reason to believe the team is being willfully dishonest with us. Shit happens during development, you set milestone dates/goals and un-forseen complications can popup that throw that off. I've seen enough games built from the ground-up to witness this. I remember Natural Selection 2 was quite the long-haul when they made an engine from scratch, that took 4 years.

[RAM-bo4250 213]

Good point. You are correct. I'm not sure about what I'm talking about. And I value your opinion just as much as my own. I got mad respect for fellow Dayz Fans and I apologize if I come off as a dick to the Dayz project or other fans. I need to chill sometimes.

I hope the admins and everyone can forgive my bullshit if I can be better about what I say.

Hoth, you and probably all others would hate me off the internet. I have a crazy passion about what I believe and I mostly come off wrong. People are usually distracted by my passion and don't listen to what I have to say. My fault. You know how people say the internet makes people unihibited?

I'm am the direct opposite. I am inhibited by the internet (good thing). I have to let my words do the talking. 

       Dude, welcome to the community and your input is greatly appreciated.

[hothtimeblues 128]

Sorry I was multitasking and using a small screen and didn't scroll to your actual name.

I honestly thought you got to pick out that name.

My bad.

[chepaco3290 59]

Sorry, but no, it is not a game. It is an Alpha build.

 

Sounds like you disagree with Steam, then, which calls it an "Early Access Game." You really just need to admit you're wrong about this and move on. It's a video game in development. Period. 

 

Using children as an analogy, my child is still a "child" whether its 2 years old or 17 years old. It doesn't matter how early DayZ is in its development stage, it is still a GAME (that is in development) whether you like it or not, just as my children are still my children regardless of what stage of development they're in. It really bugs me when people try to coddle DayZ by basically telling everyone "you didn't purchase a game so get over it!!!". Well, yes they did purchase a game. My child doesn't become my child when it's fully developed. My child has been my child since the moment it was born, and Dayz has been a game since the moment it was born. 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Chepaco

[RAM-bo4250 213]

Sounds like you disagree with Steam, then, which calls it an "Early Access Game." You really just need to admit you're wrong about this and move on. It's a video game in development. Period. 

 

Using children as an analogy, my child is still a "child" whether its 2 years old or 17 years old. It doesn't matter how early DayZ is in its development stage, it is still a GAME (that is in development) whether you like it or not, just as my children are still my children regardless of what stage of development they're in. It really bugs me when people try to coddle DayZ by basically telling everyone "you didn't purchase a game so get over it!!!". Well, yes they did purchase a game. My child doesn't become my child when it's fully developed. My child has been my child since the moment it was born, and Dayz has been a game since the moment it was born. 

I didn't bring up the child analogy. I was trying to help a person in their chosen frame of reference. As far as this analogy goes, we're talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about learning, not loving. And why is it always coddling just because I know what is before me? Just like I know what stage a person is in their growth cycle. How can I admit when I'm wrong when I'm not? My argument can't be broken because I know exactly where the GAME is at this moment in time.

[WhiteZero 72]

Guys, semantics arguments don't really add to the conversation. Obviously its a game, it's something you can play right now, it's just not a finished game.

[chepaco3290 59]

 How can I admit when I'm wrong when I'm not? My argument can't be broken because I know exactly where the GAME is at this moment in time.

 

Hey, at least you admitted it is indeed a game. :) Just like your "blank" and your "cooking pot" are both considered cooking utensils regardless of the crudeness of the former and the efficiency of the latter. 

[chepaco3290 59]

Guys, semantics arguments don't really add to the conversation. 

 

You haven't been around these forums very long then. The very first argument that any fanboy/homer uses to unquestionably defend DayZ against the slightest negativity is, quote "IT'S NOT A GAME YET!!!" Since the entire purpose of this thread is to iron our what an Alpha really is, semantics is quite necessary given the fact that semantics are indeed used to defend the failures of an Alpha. 

 

Just wait...it's inevitable that someone will quote this very post and say something to the effect of "You paid your $30 to help develop a 'project' so that it can one day become a game, so stop crying."

[RAM-bo4250 213]

Hey, at least you admitted it is indeed a game. :) Just like your "blank" and your "cooking pot" are both considered cooking utensils regardless of the crudeness of the former and the efficiency of the latter. 

Wow, what a victory there. Amazing. Too bad you can't read sarcasm. Use whatever word you want to. I, unlike, you are intelligent enough to know what is in front of me.

[dgeesio 1034]

my 20 quid pan says do not touch in red letters.

[benedictus 160]

Just wait...it's inevitable that someone will quote this very post and say something to the effect of "You paid your $30 to help develop a 'project' so that it can one day become a game, so stop crying."

 

 

I just quoted only this post cause this pretty much sums up your mindset towards the game.

 

Also the logic behind 14 months of building the engine is a bit flawed. Its not like that the day they released it on steam, a switch automaticly turned on and the engine started building it self.

You got to understand that they went trough big changes when it comes to the development team and I think you threw a number out there too.

 

These things dont and didnt happen inside 24 hours.

 

Nooow, if they had the team and the money exactly 14months ago, I would agree with you cause all would have been ready to start develop it in that exact moment. They woulda have the plans, team and guaranteed finance = easy planning for future.

 

Im not sure though if the attempt to fit a rectangle inside a circle is the best way to go with the engine.

 

Year from now we know alot more and the best part is that we dont even have to play the game until then or even waste a second thinking about it. But people getting emotional about the game is a good thing, it just goes to show that the game means something to the players.