One Idea to Fix Them All (D'Cing in combat, server hopping, relogging to move)

[Oompa 25]

We have all of us experienced the following:

We're chilling with with some friends, drinking some coke and frying some meat over a fire and singing songs. When suddenly some person starts shooting at us. The attacker may or may not have killed your buddy, who was sitting next to you, sipping on his coke and enjoying the fire's warmth, but he certainly tried to. So you have to take him out, but just as you are about to shoot them... the server says "coward has disconnected".

And until now the only 'solution' people have oame up with is to introduce a 15 second timer.

But I asked myself: "Will this timer really prevent the person who killed my buddy from dissappearing into thin air?"

"No," I concluded.

The reasons where as follow:

- A 15 (or 20) second timer is too short. We're not playing WoW, people can hide. It might take you longer than 20 seconds to find that punk.

- ^That is if you can actually devote the time to look for him. But you can't because he might be aiming his gun at you head that very moment, so you better be careful.

- A longer timer would make d'cing in any situation dangerous because some punk could saunter up to you and shoot you in the head, in the time it takes you to d'c.

- Now you might say: Why not have some sort of counter visible to other players, to see if he is d'cing? Same reason as above... it'll raise the probability of being killed whilst d'cing.

None of the solutions using timers will truly satisfy our need for avenging our buddy, will it?

So why not dispense with timers and use an entirely different mechanic? It's a little bit more complicated, but not by much. I have also read that the 15 second timer has been inspired by other games doing the same. Well the following mechanic is also inspired by a successful game.

"Check for hostiles within a certain radius of the player and disallow some actions accordingly. "

1) Now to implement this in the multiplayer setting of DayZ, we would need a way to distinguish hostile from friendly players:

a) All players are viewed as hostile by default.

b) Players can form groups or mark people as friendly (the latter would require authentication by the other player, to prevent people marking everyone as friendly).

2) You cannot log off if a hostile player is within a certain distance of the player:

Disconnect;

IF (hostile player within r=1km of Player1)

THEN CANCEL

ELSE DcPlayer

What this will cause in the grand scheme of things:

- Players will have to flee you before being able to DC, giving you the chance to find them, chase them and avenge your buddy.

- Players will not be able to log off in Elektro/Cherno as there are probably too many hostiles at all timess.

- Server hopping in locations where other players are near would be near impossible (Elektro/Cherno/Barracks).

=> Probably less noob hunters too. Ah well.

Potential problems:

- Not finding a place to d'c:

Finding a spot to relog should not be much of a problem as the area of the server is 225km², with a maximum of 50 players. That equates to a population density of 0,22 (4.5km² per player) and each player would only need 3.14km² (r=1km) without hostiles to log off (that is if you are playing ony our own). The distance is, of course, up to Rocket to decide. I just thought that 1km would be fairly good, which is why the example uses that.

- Abusing mechanic to scan for other players in area.

Prevent reconnection for at least 5 minutes after d'cing. That should stop people abusing it.

Feedback:

When you say reconnection at the end are you referring to fully leaving a server and joining the same or another or disconnecting to the lobby? [...]

Also what happens to your character if you ctrl-alt-del the game?

I am referring to leaving/joining the game map. For the other problem... a hybrid d'c could be used... one being safe and the other being rather unsafe.

See this post

and this one

TL;DR: Upon d'c check for other (hostile) players, prevent d'c when too close. If the game should crash, or alt+f4 is used, use a punishing timer (a long one).

[vesmo 21]

But this could be abused to find out whether there are other players near you by trying to disconnect...

[Oompa 25]

But this could be abused to find out whether there are other players near you by trying to disconnect...

Read the last sentence.

[Noxman 2]

When you say reconnection at the end are you referring to fully leaving a server and joining the same or another or disconnecting to the lobby?

Tbh either way it seems like a significant punishment, I often dc from my current server to join up with friends that have come online. The 5 minute timer would be extremely frustrating.

I think the method is interesting but I think the restriction wouldn't be worth the gain you get from not having dc'ers and server hoppers. Sometimes people just have to go (although dc'ing in combat is 99% bullshit) and if i'm in elektro I might have to simply leg it out of town up the nearest hill and log off. What if I run out of the city (because I can't dc when trying) up the nearest hill and attempt to log off only to find I can't because someone else is passing by on their way to the city.

Also what happens to your character if you ctrl-alt-del the game?

Oh also, this would add the requirement of grouping with anyone you play with just to avoid the penalty (although it would be fun to troll torch wielding noobies by running around behind them so they can't log).

I don't mean to be so negative and I can't really offer any practical solution to the problems myself but this seems like it would be more punishing than useful. If the game gets bound too significantly in rules the people who play to screw around will leave and new players will be put off by an incapability to play because of a random timer they didn't know about.

[GrunDy 4]

-1 TL;DR

Causing more problems.

Will be able to Alt F4

People who Alt F4 and come back with no loot will write complaints.

Not being able to DC if another player is near you is pretty bad idea imo.

[vesmo 21]

But this could be abused to find out whether there are other players near you by trying to disconnect...

Read the last sentence.

But if someone is going to a high risk place, say the NW airfield and try to disconnect near it, but find out they can't because hostiles are nearby, then they do not disconnect and magically know that other players are nearby. Granted, if there is no one there they will disconnect and it will take some time to get back, but it can still be exploited. Not sure about it, I think some better ideas with the timers have been thrown around. I guess it's just a preference how you want to get rid of this problem, main thing is SOMETHING is done about it.

[Oompa 25]

When you say reconnection at the end are you referring to fully leaving a server and joining the same or another or disconnecting to the lobby?

I am refering to going into the lobby even. And the 5 minute relog timer should only be on that particular server. So you would still be able to join up with your friends on another server.

[...]if i'm in elektro I might have to simply leg it out of town up the nearest hill and log off. What if I run out of the city (because I can't dc when trying) up the nearest hill and attempt to log off only to find I can't because someone else is passing by on their way to the city.

Also what happens to your character if you ctrl-alt-del the game?

To be fair... I hadn't actually though of that. A possible solution (that I can think from the top of my head) is a hybrid system. When using the 'disconnect' option the distance mechanic (ie. safe d'c) would apply.

If alt+f4 is used or the game crashes... a LONG timer could be used (ie. unsafe d'c, if you gotta go, you gotta go... but you may die). The check for this would be fairly simple I guess... as a way for the server to check whether the d'c button was used or not could be implemented (server-sided log out?).

[GrunDy 4]

And what if there internet cuts out? Or a power cut? They have to pay a timed penalty to rejoin for something that was not there fault?

[Oompa 25]

And what if there internet cuts out? Or a power cut? They have to pay a timed penalty to rejoin for something that was not there fault?

Using a blanket timer able to effectively mitigate d'cing from combat and such, would blanket punish ALL players. I prefer punishing fewer players, even if it isn't their fault (I'm in that number myself, as my internet likes to give out).

[liquidje 38]

Personally I object because of the reasons posted by others: abusing the system to find out enemies. Also, a whole friend-system to just make it not possible to disconnect near other people is absurd. Finally, I don't agree with your calculations, as players are not spread evenly across the map.

The disconnect timer also does not work, as you state correctly. I myself stilll find the best systems the one which checks whether you are fleeing from some threat or combat (which this system is trying to solve):

1. Check for zombies aggro'd on player currently

2. Check for shots fired by player in the past few seconds/minutes

3. Check if player has been hurt in the past few seconds/minutes

4. Check if bullets have impact near the player in the past few seconds/minutes

If everything is false, you can disconnect.

Specifics should really be analyzed as it has to be balanced. Specific reasons and time durations could maybe dictate a timer when you still want to force disconnect.

The only real problems here with most disconnect issues are the problems posed with alt-f4, power outtage, internet fuck-up and what-not. It is a fine balance between in favor of the disconnecter and the disconnectee. I'm afraid there is no real solution where disconnecters (because of power outtage for example) are not punished, but alt-f4 disconnecters do, as there is no way to tell the game apart.

However, I do think that with a mild timer, and when the game and servers are more stable, it should be implemented at some moment in the future. People with shitty internet or instable PCs should not be accounted for imho.

[falken_uk 0]

"Check for hostiles within a certain radius of the player and disallow some actions accordingly. "

Define 'hostiles'. Let's say you want to disconnect whilst you're in a group with friends. You wouldn't be able to.

Let's say you legitimately want to d/c in cherno or elektro...you can't because there is someone nearby.

So you travel into a heavily forested area, you haven't seen anyone for hours...yet you try and d/c and you notice someone else nearby. So you spend your time hunting them because a metagaming mechanic told you someone was nearby.

D/c from the game for WHATEVER REASON is an action that takes you out of the experience and should be treated as such. What's the problem with waiting 3-5 minutes if you're legitimately trying to d/c? 15 seconds only gives a smaller window for abuse. Let's not turn this game into a fluffy mmo, let's retain the harsh and most importantly REALISTIC approach that makes it so great.

[Catman (DayZ) 23]

in response to the OP: Sorry imo a far too overcomplicated solution and far too punishing. People have to disconnect for a number of reasons. For example I've had to disconnect numerous because my 2 year old daughter has woken up.

The simplest solution I've seen mentioned is that people need to sit down to properly and immediately disconnect, if the person drops in any other way then their character remains in the game for 30,60,120,300 seconds or whatever. (And btw Alt+f4 is disabled)

[falken_uk 0]

people need to sit down to properly and immediately disconnect

Hilarious. And how does this fix teleporting behind someone?

You've obviously never experienced someone server hopping to move directly behind you on one server then rejoining and appearing directly behind you.

Sitting down to disconnect isn't going to solve anything except immediate firefights..possibly. Sorry!

[thewardogkatana@gmail.com 5]

Far too complicated. Far too irritating. I'd agree with Catman here.

[Oompa 25]

The simplest solution I've seen mentioned is that people need to sit down to properly and immediately disconnect' date=' if the person drops in any other way then their character remains in the game for 30,60,120,300 seconds or whatever. (And btw Alt+f4 is disabled)

[/quote']

How does sitting solve the problem of being hidden and d'cing?

Whilst I appreciate that you might have to go and look after your daughter, there is no way for the server to differentiate you from a common d'cer. And the number m of d'cers is probably such that the number n of legit players d'cing quickly is such that n<

@MuteMan: My post does mention a specific mechanic to allow you to d'c with friends near. The problem with long timers is, that people WILL NOT watch their characters for 5 minutes, doing nothing. Anything above 30 seconds is enough for someone to come from nowhere and kill you, even if you weren't in combat.

@Liquidje: Thank you for your post. I was actually thinking of something similar at first, however:

1. Probably easy to implement.

2. Which player? He could be being fired upon and just d'c.

3. Shots can miss the player, he could still d'c.

4. Probably very hard to detect, may be impossible even. But without it (2.) and (3.) would be insufficient and actually do very little to help.

For those reasons I did not opt for that idea myself ;)

And your approach to deal with power-outages etc. is the same as mine, if I understood you correctly. And tbh. I can't think of a better way to do it.

[mikyjax 3]

People must sit/lie down/sleep for one minut before disconnecting.

You see the timer on the screen telling you when you can leave.

You can cancel the disconnecting procedure if needed.

If X hit you once, X will receive the message : Y is disconnecting in one min.

if Y cancel the procedure X receive the message "Y canceled the procedure".

if you alt-f4 you will spawn with all your gear somewhere randomly on the beach

When you leave a server you are ban from that same server for 2 minuts wich I think could be enough to prevent server hoping behind people.

All of this is only possible if the game can make the difference between Kicked for any reason or alt f4.

[EDIT]

We can make something else. When you "sit to disconect" you see a black screen, the timer and no sound. Wich would represent the sleep. That would last 1 minut. This is exactly the same than a timer after disconnect except this is possible with the current engine. This could be a temporary solution. Yes it s boring to watch, but you still can alt tab to do something else.

[falken_uk 0]

@MuteMan: My post does mention a specific mechanic to allow you to d'c with friends near. The problem with long timers is, that people WILL NOT watch their characters for 5 minutes, doing nothing. Anything above 30 seconds is enough for someone to come from nowhere and kill you, even if you weren't in combat.

Do you have any idea how much development it would need to code a 'buddy system'?

Timers are already implemented. If you're not prepared to watch your character for longer than 30 seconds then you're not hiding well enough or you're trying to d/c in a high risk area which is your own stupid action.

Disconnecting should be akin to 'going to sleep'. You won't go to sleep instantly on demand (unless exhasted) and you wouldn't sleep in a high risk area where you're going to get shot within 3 minutes time.

[Oompa 25]

@MuteMan:

Not a full buddy system. I was thinking of something along the lines of:

Press "p" in-game. Select player, set as friendly. The other player has to do the same with you, so that you are not regarded as hostile to each other.

[StealthyBrayden 6]

I love the whole idea of fixing the switching/swapping server issue and what not. But to be honest this will become a really annoying matter. I don't want to have to run into an open field or a forest ages away to log out. 1km is just too far... 150m sounds respectible

[Orphen (DayZ) 14]

Abuse to find other players (Player probably shoots back)

VS

you not being able to kill him anyway because he logs.

You not being able to log after a DC for 5minutes

VS

That guy logging in right next to you as you're looting.

I know which I'd prefer.

[liquidje 38]

@Liquidje: Thank you for your post. I was actually thinking of something similar at first' date=' however:

[/quote']

First off: by player I meant a person who wants to disconnect. So:

1. Probably easy to implement.

2. Which player? He could be being fired upon and just d'c.

3. Shots can miss the player' date=' he could still d'c.

4. Probably very hard to detect, may be impossible even. But without it (2.) and (3.) would be insufficient and actually do very little to help.

For those reasons I did not opt for that idea myself ;)

[/quote']

1. I guess

2. As I said, the player is the one disconnecting. 3 & 4 should prohibit the player from DCing by not returning fire.

3. That's why (4) is in place.

4. It depends. If the game would handle the check for this client-side it is not that hard. The game automatically must process bullet impacts and their location (for the bullet impact sound, and of course the animation for sand splashing up), and probably even does some distant check to determine volume level for the sound of the bullet impacting.

Considering (4) as feasible: the only situation not accounted for is when shooting more or less uphill or on a tower or anything, as missing bullets will fly far away from the target. But well, I highly doubt a solution will be thought up for that.

However, even without (4), I think (2) and (3) would vastly improve on the current situation. The only thing which should be figured out then is a way to detect when someone is shooting at another player, or even more preferably, is aiming at him.

You could have clients flagging eachother as being "sighted". The most easy and practical way I can think of is as followed. Remember the old tag-system, which magically appeared when you were looking at someone? It has now been disabled, but that same system can be used to determine if someone sees you. Instead of popping up data (and also reveiling the position of another player), it could just give a "silent" signal (so the player who spots the other player is not notified of looking at a player) to the client it sees, which then disables disconnecting for x period of time.

Just an idea.

And your approach to deal with power-outages etc. is the same as mine' date=' if I understood you correctly. And tbh. I can't think of a better way to do it.

[/quote']

I guess we do, as you say to Catman: there has to be some in-between, at which abusers are not able to abuse, while genuine disconnecters can disconnect as fast as possible. The amount of discomfort should be minimized, but as with some other online games: you can't just walk away without consequences. In a game of Quake you lose the round, in a game of clan-based Unreal Tournament your team misses a member. Right now, in a game called Awesomenauts, you get less gold when you have disconnected the previous game, and so in this game you can't immediately disconnect. One of the Need For Speed installments had pinkslip races, where, if your connection fucked up, you just lost your car PERIOD.

But it would be quite a tedious balancing process to minimize the negative effects, but I think really gamebreaking effects which many people complain about should not be kept in place for the one-in-a-thousand situation (across the whole player base, maybe not for Catman in particulair) you can't wait 1 or 2 minutes to find the right place for disconnecting. There is no alternative at this point I am afraid.

EDIT: Please know I do not plan on solving the problem of server hopping in particulair, more rage-quiting or alt-f4ing or how you may call it. Server hopping, as in the act of disconnecting to walk up to another player and then reconnect to flank them, or server hopping to raid loots, are completely different. I don't think one big mechanic should be thought up to fix both (although in the end they must be integrated). One thing I do know: using timers will not work: they are either excessively long, which is extremely annoying to survivors, or too short, which just causes the looters to wait for that time.

[falken_uk 0]

One thing I do know: using timers will not work: they are either excessively long, which is extremely annoying to survivors, or too short, which just causes the looters to wait for that time.

So rather than put yourself out for a short moment and watch a timer whilst logging out, you'd rather have development time and effort put into coding a whole new convulted flagging procedure. Wow. Just wow.

Server hopping, as in the act of disconnecting to walk up to another player and then reconnect to flank them, or server hopping to raid loots, are completely different.

Completely different? No doubt once your flagging system has been written you'd be posting asking for another system to developed to deal with server hopping. Consider timers for just one moment, you'll see its a simple solution and most importantly ALREADY exists in the game!

[KWilt 157]

With this system, you're pretty much forced out of groups. Can't D/C if you're in a group, because your allies would be too close.

Also, it's been mentioned before in this thread, but if you enter a high density area, you're pretty much screwed if you have to leave ASAP. Hell, by your numbers, you're not really safe anywhere. 1km is a pretty far distance, and it's not hard to get within that distance to someone and not even know it.

[murhis 4]

I like partly your idea. But the 1 km is way too much and there is one bigger problem... You can use "this check" as a player radar. So at that point when you can't disconnect you know for sure somebody is within 1 km from you. It would be even worse if the detection range would be shorter. So that wouldn't really work and it would be the same if it would check from actual visible survivors etc. And think about it if you would have this 1 km radius requirement for DC and it wouldn't give you any feedback where to move so you could DC. You could easily spend massive amount of time for just seeking the DC spot.

So the only solution is to determine hostile actions. Which is infact very easy as if we take your "punk" example. At the point when the "punk" shoots once he will be a hostile. Lets say he cant DC for next 5 minute and if he will force DC he will stand next 5 minutes on his last position. In that 5 minutes if you are not able to get your retribution, you don't even deserve it.

I also agree 15 seconds is way too less. It should be at least 30 secs, preferably 1 minute. So you are not able to jump behind the next tree and DC safely before the hostiles reach you.

[Oompa 25]

@KWilt:

I said that the 1km is only an example and even with that, you need only head away from a town for 5 minutes. And you also completely choose to ignore what I said about friendlies.

@murhis:

What I am able to read from in between your lines is that you want to redefine the 'hostile' tag, so that it depends on actions taken. I'm up for that.

How about firing a gun marks everyone as hostile to you, and you as hostile to them? Do you think that would work better when compared to defaulting everyone to hostile?

(This would prevent ppl from d'cing upon hearing gunfire, I guess.)