Armed Helicopters Are NOT Overpowered

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

Heli in DayZ mod was overpowered becouse of how easy was to maintain it (easy fuel and fix). Having it harder to have a operational heli is not about ultra-realism but about balancing overpowered item.

Yeah man we're all in agreement there. Helis in SA should be very hard to fix and maintain. It should be an endgame goal that takes a long time to accomplish, but the reward is great. Some people just decided that they wanted to be done with the whole idea of helis altogether. 

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Heli's were very easy to maintain in the mod.  Clans had their own servers that they would hop over to, loot the fuck out of it, then hop back over to the other server with all their loot and keep the ball rolling.  

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

Any idiot can pick up a gun a pull the trigger.  Said idiot may not be able to hit the side of a barn but shooting a gun is far easier than piloting a helicopter.

 

Anyway, this topic has already been beaten to death countless times and trying to be your own special snowflake and starting your own topic on it doesn't make you important.  Mods will rule the game eventually and you'll have you gunships without the worry of even having to maintain them.

Not entirely sure if that was directed at me but if so you clearly don't understand my view. Nobody said helicopters should be easy to attain/maintain, I said quite the opposite. Also we're not talking about gunships. Not sure why you're so disgruntled, I sincerely apologize if I have offended you with my topic, I never meant to be a special snowflake. This isn't a 6th grade popularity contest or whatever you're making it out to be, I just want to have a discussion, if you don't want to be a part of it, don't be. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by Jigsaw115

[RDogg 42]

I'm going to summarise here.

 

Choppers will be in the game. Regardless. If it's the way I'd like it, then they be very hard to find, parts will be hard to find, and they will be difficult to maintain.

 

Do not come at me with the realism argument because DayZ isn't realistic. People know everything in Chernarus. Let's go by that logic. 

 

They won't be overpowered. The ammo is going to be hard to find/very rare. Given the lack of said ammo, there won't be any coastal raids gunning down unarmed players like the Mod.

 

For those of you who can not understand this concept. Some of us enjoy reward. If we feel having lots of gear and a car is not as rewarding as spending hours and hours, just like anything in DayZ, finding and repairing a helicopter, then there is nothing wrong with that. Reward and longevity are the main aspects of this game. 

 

And also, these are not going to be gunships. A Huey would have x2 M240's or M60's. You would need to find 7.62 100rd/200rd boxes for these. Ammo would be scare. We ain't going to be sitting on a military stockpile.

[pilgrim* 3514]

The topic is not about not having choppers but about balancing them, by making it harder to maintain the heli.

 

Yes

There are two problems with this discussion

People say "endgame" and people say "rare" as though those are both real things and everyone knows what they are

 

OK - what is "endgame" ... suppose only 1 heli spawns in 1 month.. that means in less than 30 days 1 team gets 1 heli, for sure. Then they spend - how long ? - say 5 days fixing it up so it will fly. It can be "very difficult" but they are a hardnosed team, right ?

 

So after Five Weeks of Realtime, we are in the Endgame of DayZ ??

 

And make no mistake, once 1 heli is flying on your server then everybody is in the same "endgame". We all know this. OK - a month of realtime is not long for players to reach the "endgame". So lets scrap "endgame" as a stupid concept and just talk about "gameplay"... because if there are helis on the server, they will be flying around forever, if you are a beginner or a hardened player - they will be flying from day 1 (or day 35 if you insist).

 

OK - "rare": People often say 'rare' as though anything has ever been rare in the Mod or SA. If you are experienced, any object you want, you know where it spawns, you know in general terms how often it turns up.. And you WANT it.. so you do what you need to do to GET it.. And that takes you how long ? 3 days play ? (wow that's rare) 5 days play ? (wow that's rare).. AND you get it, dontcha? We all know this.

 

So saying something is "rare" in DayZ is really saying only the uber players have it. But there are plenty of uber players and they all have one (or maybe 2 even).They make damned sure they have one. So lets not bluff people that something 'rare' no one has it.. once it's in the game it's IN.. it might be a week or MORE (even 10 days!)  before all the ubers all have one.. wow thats "rare". No it is not. There is no such thing as "rare" in this game.

 

So the idea that only uber teams will be able to have "rare" gear when they are so uber they reach the "endgame"

.. is a total fantasy. In reality we are all thinking "My Team is so Uber that WE will definitely have the Rare Heli before the other Wet Saps.. and we will Keep it because we are Totally Uber".

 

Don't be offended - I think this way too, because I am just as dumb as everyone.. I think Im a totally COOL player better than all you other halfwit-stumblers, just like all us ubers think.

 

so lets honestly talk about what helicopters might be for, and how they could work in gameplay, without pretending they can be "rare" or "endgame" (don't use those words).

If they are in the game they will always be there. So what to do about it.

Edited June 25, 2014 by pilgrim

[Karmaterror 982]

What if.....

 

They made the big fuel cylinder at NWA the only source of jet fuel on the entire map....then you are forced to go to a high traffic PvP zone if you want to keep it running :)

 

Fits with the whole Risk/Reward thing :)

 

 

Oh and...

 

 

Today I was looting balota in experimental when I heard armed heli approaching. It started the fire and wiped out my all squad. I was fast enough to log out in ATC tower before it landed and rushed me. Intense.

 

 

This is utter bollocks, lol

 

I knew one day we would agree on something :)

[Agrefits 70]

The topic is not about not having choppers but about balancing them, by making it harder to maintain the heli.

to be contructive onto OPs .. to balance a chopper much more than rare availabilty and hard maintenance is needed, for example :

-  be able to hide stuff from said chopper efficiently (including cars)

-  make things harder to see for spotter and pilot (no 3pp, interior that blocks sight (especially downwards and anything thats off a 80degree cone from infront), probably dirty windows or anything that makes spotting harder) to see something below you must be either on low altitude, far off, or tilted downward and therefore moving.

-  damage taken by chopper from regular rifles must have serious impact on flight behaviour, (rapid fuel leak, tail rotor damage uncontrolled spin, main rotor damage missing lift etc. )

-  make the insertion process harder  .. no more easy landings, give the chopper a wheeled gear, if it hits the ground to hard, wheel breaks and chopper falls aside ramming its blades into the dirt .. no more parachute insertions

 

-  add the possibility for random system failure (yes, flying a patched up heli should have some risk involved .. and yes should also happen with cars.. from cars, you're more likely to get out alive tho.)

-  Balance the amout of space the more people are in the chopper, the less loot it can carry.

and even then i still want my manpads! :P

 

Edited June 25, 2014 by Agrefits

[frosti 2165]

 

make things harder to see for spotter and pilot (no 3pp

 

Actually that reminded me when I played 1pp only server and heli on those servers were very different then this on 3pp servers.

 

Basically to spot something from heli you had to fly low and slow and  being on the ground was not scary too, becouse heli that was flying high and fast never ever spotted you.

[Agrefits 70]

Actually that reminded me when I played 1pp only server and heli on those servers were very different then this on 3pp servers.

 

Basically to spot something from heli you had to fly low and slow

and when you're low and slow. you're more likely to get hit ;)

Edited June 25, 2014 by Agrefits

[frosti 2165]

and when you're low and slow. you're more likely to get hit ;)

 

And indeed I did. I actually sniped heli gunners on 1pp only server, it was somethng that I never had occasion to do on 3pp.

[Agrefits 70]

edit

Edited June 25, 2014 by Agrefits

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

and even then i still want my manpads! :P

 

 

                                   -   BRING IT ON !

Edited June 25, 2014 by pilgrim

[comikz 218]

Wait till they open up modding for the SA which they'll do then there will be tanks and gunshit helicopters and barracks everywhere :(

 

Then I'll make sure to play on Vanilla Servers or ones with Mods that aren't too outrageous, lol...

[sloasdaylight 129]

Thats not my point at all..My point is that possessing a helicopter, shifts the balance of power a ridicilous huge amount of power into those who own it. Whoever has the heli, has complete map control. not just a minor advantage. but:

- being everywhere you want in a matter of seconds, bringing in reinforcements to a firefight, regaining the control of a lost one, dispatching sniper teams to literally not enterable positions

- seeing everything you want from a safe distance, act as spotter for snipers, and cover a HUGE area doing so. literally ignoring walls and stuff, because you change your direction of view as you circle over target area.

- being able to put a shit load of pressure to the enemy, by keeping him "supressed" to concealed position, and therefor being a sitting duck for the flanking ground teams guided by the heli's spotter.

- being able to scout the whole map for hidden bases in a matter of minutes.

- being able to track down and steal every single car on the server easy mode.

- being able to see if someone is actually there guarding those assets or if its easy picking. And if its easy picking, why not just fly there again a couple of minutes later, only take us 2 minutes, wait.. lets use those 2 minutes on the completely opposite side of the map.

and guess what? you don't even have to run for your corpse no more, the rest of your imba special forces combined arms team, that got the guy due to the advantages stated above, will just collect your stuff, and fly it down to the coast and pick you up again so you can jump right into the next firefight literally 5 minutes later.

And guess how i can efficiently counter that thread built up by a group with likely 5 times the manpower of mine? .. By wasting a whole day running around the outbacks of the map, looking for a grounded heli to destroy it. Now thats sure much of a fun than loosing your gear in a more adrenaline heavy way you've pointed out.

You want a chopper? Give me underground stashes and manpads then!. How'd you feel in your chopper when it get hits from an inbound manpad as soon as you pass over that hill in front of you, and you and all your team goes down in a big ass fireball? .. Thats most likely how those feel, who be forced to act against chopper teams.

So basically what I got out of this is that you think that a very rare item that requires a lot of teamwork and play time to get into even remotely operable condition provides an unfair advantage for a team of players working together against a lone-wolf.

I'm overflowing with sympathy.

[jgbtl292 45]

 

All of that is true and I never said it wasn't. The argument being used against helicopters is that anyone who had one would use it to get the hell out of dodge. You can't tell me someone with a car wouldn't do the exact same thing.

 

no its not the same ^^  the woods are the same as in arma 2 -  and when you fly you can easy see all in the woods - arma trees are to small und not dense ^^   you can see all easy from the sky in a arma wood ^^ result is no place to hide for your little tent  :(    you can have the best place in a wood  in a little hole and many bushes around - you can see on the ground nothing from 5m meters.  from the sky its absolute easy to spot at 1km ^^  all what not a tree is is shining   and say   here here !   

 

more expansive trees with dense crown.   will give a god hide in woods from the sky.  dayz has nothing from this ^^

Edited June 25, 2014 by Crusader78

[sloasdaylight 129]

no its not the same ^^  the woods are the same as in arma 2 -  and when you fly you can easy see all in the woods - arma trees are to small und not dence ^^   you can see eversing from the sky in a arma wood ^^ result is no place to hide  :(

Completely different point than the one I was making. To it though, I admit that the woods look like crap now, but we'll see what happens when they introduce the new renderer and improve clientside optimization so that people aren't running the game on potato settings to get decent fps.

Edited June 25, 2014 by sloasdaylight

[Agrefits 70]

So basically what I got out of this is that you think that a very rare item that requires a lot of teamwork and play time to get into even remotely operable condition provides an unfair advantage for a team of players working together against a lone-wolf.

I'm overflowing with sympathy.

You appearently don't get it that the advantages far outranges the effort put into it no matter how "very rare" it is, if its not tweaked / balanced massively regarding gameplay. . .

 

Edited June 25, 2014 by Agrefits

[pycco 38]

a poll would be great

 

i do not want helicopters in at all, they will lend them selves to the pay to win style that is so popular now days. how would you balance this? once a group attains a heli they would own the entire server and be able to loot everything and make more heli's rinse and repeat. cars will be bad enough in a game where society has fallen, gas goes rancid after a short while and does not work. i don't understand how you would be able to maintenance a car let alone a helicopter when you don't even have food or water at a regular interval let alone fresh gas and parts that are not rusted out.

Edited June 25, 2014 by pycco

[a_ruttle 199]

so, they added new weapon poses etc to show that the survivors aren't trained etc. Yet they know how to fly helicopters. Sure

 

Helicopters have no place in DayZ other than as crashed wrecks which spawn loot

[Nesuma (DayZ) 108]

 how would you balance this? once a group attains a heli they would own the entire server and be able to loot everything and make more heli's rinse and repeat.

Again and again the same "opinions". Oh god.

No. They. Won't. Be. Able. To. Loot. Everything.

You've to know, helicopters are making sounds (quite loud), and they're always visible (you can see through air). If you want to loot a spot, you've to fly there and land, maybe drop off somebody and then fly away. Now let's think about the places worth it to loot for a group with a helicopter: Airfields, Military bases, hospitals. Aaaaand now we realise that there are always people near the said places. --> Everbody will see you, everbody will hear you. You take around 1 minute to land, drop off somebody and then fly away. 1 Minute, of almost no movement. Every person would see you. And even if they don't shoot at the helicopter ( I guess weapons won't damage a helicopter immediatly with 1 shot), they will wait for your mate to jump out. And shoot him. There is nothing easier in DayZ. And you can't do anything. And if you want to avoid this, you've to land 2 kilometers away.

Jeah that's how I imagined looting everything.

And for the people who are now thinking: Well, what's is the purpose of helicopters then?

Do what I just said, if they want to risk it, why don't you let them? Also flying to Islands, taking a break (once zombies are "added" 20 minutes in 2 kilometers heigh are calm), enjoying the world, maybe even see a bad placed car or tent? I can't understand why so many people are crying that their tents can be detected

Sorry if this sounded mean, but if you read all these posts, containing the same thing again and again...

[gibonez 3633]

Well once again by that logic every survivor has to find manuals on how to repair/maintain cars or helicopters. If you took four survivors, and one of them had those skills on repairing cars, I'm pretty sure they would have a very basic idea of how a helicopter worked inside. We ain't building space rockets here.

 

 

 

Totally the same thing inside my CRV

[Martmital 436]

If I was Dean I would add em, but forget to mention that you'll never get one off the ground.

[rickyspanish 158]

to be contructive onto OPs .. to balance a chopper much more than rare availabilty and hard maintenance is needed, for example :

- be able to hide stuff from said chopper efficiently (including cars)

- make things harder to see for spotter and pilot (no 3pp, interior that blocks sight (especially downwards and anything thats off a 80degree cone from infront), probably dirty windows or anything that makes spotting harder) to see something below you must be either on low altitude, far off, or tilted downward and therefore moving.

- damage taken by chopper from regular rifles must have serious impact on flight behaviour, (rapid fuel leak, tail rotor damage uncontrolled spin, main rotor damage missing lift etc. )

- make the insertion process harder .. no more easy landings, give the chopper a wheeled gear, if it hits the ground to hard, wheel breaks and chopper falls aside ramming its blades into the dirt .. no more parachute insertions

- add the possibility for random system failure (yes, flying a patched up heli should have some risk involved .. and yes should also happen with cars.. from cars, you're more likely to get out alive tho.)

- Balance the amout of space the more people are in the chopper, the less loot it can carry.

and even then i still want my manpads! :P

Some good ideas right here, really like the chance of malfunctions for all vehicles. And 1st person view only for vehicles (id be happier with 1st person only everything but thats a different story). What about weather effects? Rainstorms would make vision pretty bad im guessing.

And if theres chance of finding, fixing and flying helicopters then there should definatly be a chance to find AA guns such as stingers.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Ricky Spanish

[fnal 206]

I like the idea of the unarmed helicopter but it should certainly be difficult to maintain and fly.  You should have to make a decision whether you want to invest all your time into the helicopter if you feel the reward is worth the risk.

 

Some things to balance it out:

 

-Most helicopters have turbine engines and use Jet-A fuel, which should only be available at the 3 airports in Chernarus.  Jet engines can also burn gasoline but must be overhauled in ridiculously low hours, like 100.  So in the game, you could put gasoline in the chopper in a pinch and it will fly but there is an incredible risk of engine failure, most likely leading to your death :D  Unless of course they use something like a Robinson R44 which is a 6-cyl.  So you've got to know what fuel to use!

 

-I'm hoping for the repair mechanic, all the required tools will need to be looted and not just have the toolbox from the mod to fix everything.  So not only will you need more tools, parts will be much more scarce and only available in certain areas, such as the new industrial area in Novo.

 

-Dean talked about enhancing the weather system so just like in real life, sometimes there is fog and low level clouds that prevent you from using the ground as a reference.  So even if you wanted to use your helicopter at certain times, you pose a huge risk of crashing into a tree or building because you can't see anything.

 

-Whatever the helicopter, it should have a small useful load.  If you've got full fuel and you load it up with gear and fill all the seats with passengers, you may be outside the operating limits and crash trying to maneuver.  So you must take into account weight and balance issues.

 

Obviously, this is banking on if the engine would support these features but I think it would be great to have helicopters.

[pycco 38]

Again and again the same "opinions". Oh god.

No. They. Won't. Be. Able. To. Loot. Everything.

You've to know, helicopters are making sounds (quite loud), and they're always visible (you can see through air). If you want to loot a spot, you've to fly there and land, maybe drop off somebody and then fly away. Now let's think about the places worth it to loot for a group with a helicopter: Airfields, Military bases, hospitals. Aaaaand now we realise that there are always people near the said places. --> Everbody will see you, everbody will hear you. You take around 1 minute to land, drop off somebody and then fly away. 1 Minute, of almost no movement. Every person would see you. And even if they don't shoot at the helicopter ( I guess weapons won't damage a helicopter immediatly with 1 shot), they will wait for your mate to jump out. And shoot him. There is nothing easier in DayZ. And you can't do anything. And if you want to avoid this, you've to land 2 kilometers away.

Jeah that's how I imagined looting everything.

And for the people who are now thinking: Well, what's is the purpose of helicopters then?

Do what I just said, if they want to risk it, why don't you let them? Also flying to Islands, taking a break (once zombies are "added" 20 minutes in 2 kilometers heigh are calm), enjoying the world, maybe even see a bad placed car or tent? I can't understand why so many people are crying that their tents can be detected

Sorry if this sounded mean, but if you read all these posts, containing the same thing again and again...

 

ARMED helicopters will shoot any one stupid enough to reveal them self's and they would carry more like 6-10 people and are ARMED  with what pea shooters? no they will have large caliber guns and/or missiles and the troops inside will be able to shoot, they will be able to to control huge parts of the map and high value loot areas with ease. 

 

then once they do this they will have access to more helicopters and as the rest of my post said that you cut says that it leads to a pay to win style of game.