Petition: No more randomness in weapons, SKILL based combat.

[FrostDMG 398]

But that would just be shooting "lasers" at one another, which would just upset everyone just as much.

 

Not quite, like Sovetsky said, bullet drop etc.

 

There needs to be some sort of consistency with the guns (assuming pristine) - just like you'd expect your car to turn left every time you turn the steering wheel left, as opposed to sometimes turning right. Maybe that's an awful analogy... Yeah, probably is. Anyway, you get my point.

[xalienax 621]

Not quite, like Sovetsky said, bullet drop etc.

 

There needs to be some sort of consistency with the guns (assuming pristine) - just like you'd expect your car to turn left every time you turn the steering wheel left, as opposed to sometimes turning right. Maybe that's an awful analogy... Yeah, probably is. Anyway, you get my point.

its more like having a feel for your car. you know how much you need to slow to take a corner, how hard to turn your wheel. the current mechanics would be like driving a mini cooper that occasionally has the turning radius of a mooving van.

[kingbritain 63]

I think melee should be fixed before guns become rare. I mean, if there's one gun per server and we're all running around with pickaxes, guess how many of us won't play anymore. Melee system is ridiculously clunky. Please make it more fluid before reducing gun count.

[Karmaterror 982]

Iv not done a great deal of shooting on the SA, and 90% has been from a nest with a mosin.....iv never had to fire strait after a long run. Do we really not have increased sway as in arma when we are out of breath??

 

Because im still taking safety stops around 50-100m from my nest and moving in slow, so I can check the area.....but more so im not out of breath when I get there......am I wasting my time lol?

[xalienax 621]

Iv not done a great deal of shooting on the SA, and 90% has been from a nest with a mosin.....iv never had to fire strait after a long run. Do we really not have increased sway as in arma when we are out of breath??

 

Because im still taking safety stops around 50-100m from my nest and moving in slow, so I can check the area.....but more so im not out of breath when I get there......am I wasting my time lol?

oddly the mosin is probably more accurate then it should be. the Sway in SA isnt no where near as proportinate as Arma 3's its there but not enough. the problem is the horrendous fire cone on even pristine pistols (at very short ranges) and the M4, and presumably the AKM will have the same problem.

[forddefect 14]

Weapon spread designed to emulate fatigue, weapon weight and shooter competence etc.. I think has a place. Furthermore if its calculated server side it can help mitigate some of the effects of aim-bots. As for player skill, having a dispersion system can still require player input. The expert player will know how to minimise these effects. Know at which distances with what weapons give you the greatest chance of killing your target, it also allow an easy way to tune balance issues like running around hip firing.

 

Also isn't the whole point of the dayz experience? Dayz provides a sandbox in which many actions have an element of unknown certainty to them. The improper information the game provides, forces you as a player to make decisions. Its the weight of the these decision and the associated risk which makes this game engaging, I get the most satisfaction from making decision not to engage, or wait for the optimal time to do so far more pleasing.

 

I think a lot of people play this game simply for the combat, they apt at quickly tooling up and getting into action. The request for helicopters to be common, weapons to be pure skill based, the abuse of servers to loot up. All point to people wanting it easier to actually fight each other. The thought of subsistence, healing, hunting etc. does even factor, as they never live long enough for it to truly matter.

 

That's not the fault of the players, It's the fault of the designers, and when they want to shift the balance with various mechanics, they get a uprising of the players who style of game play it impacts the most. So they dammed if they do and they are dammed if they dont. Throw this EAG crap on top and you got a community that has a fair share of people who have made a financial contribution and feel they( and in some ways do ) have the right to be vocal and demanding. And developers who will feel in someway to be beholden to the community that is supporting them,  which is probably far more fickle then any publisher.

[zeroy 240]

Until I see a video that shows a bullet not reaching its target from dead center I'll advance that the weapon system as it is is fine. Gun shoots where I aim it, of course it works better prone, while holding breath. I fail to see what the issue is - unless im wrong and bullet spiral or something? Also, I am wondering if lag is a factor on people claiming their shots dont register on target.

[xalienax 621]

Weapon spread designed to emulate fatigue, weapon weight and shooter competence etc.. I think has a place. Furthermore if its calculated server side it can help mitigate some of the effects of aim-bots. As for player skill, having a dispersion system can still require player input. The expert player will know how to minimise these effects. Know at which distances with what weapons give you the greatest chance of killing your target, it also allow an easy way to tune balance issues like running around hip firing.

 

Also isn't the whole point of the dayz experience? Dayz provides a sandbox in which many actions have an element of unknown certainty to them. The improper information the game provides, forces you as a player to make decisions. Its the weight of the these decision and the associated risk which makes this game engaging, I get the most satisfaction from making decision not to engage, or wait for the optimal time to do so far more pleasing.

 

I think a lot of people play this game simply for the combat, they apt at quickly tooling up and getting into action. The request for helicopters to be common, weapons to be pure skill based, the abuse of servers to loot up. All point to people wanting it easier to actually fight each other. The thought of subsistence, healing, hunting etc. does even factor, as they never live long enough for it to truly matter.

 

That's not the fault of the players, It's the fault of the designers, and when they want to shift the balance with various mechanics, they get a uprising of the players who style of game play it impacts the most. So they dammed if they do and they are dammed if they dont. Throw this EAG crap on top and you got a community that has a fair share of people who have made a financial contribution and feel they( and in some ways do ) have the right to be vocal and demanding. And developers who will feel in someway to be beholden to the community that is supporting them,  which is probably far more fickle then any publisher.

I am an openly admitted PvP player. KI love and seek out clan wars in the norther reaches to this day in the mod. i want that mod gameplay back. I do not complain about more infection, complex medical systems, hunting, bases, measures to prevent combat logging, etc.

 

What i do not want is unseen mechanics which i have NO WAY OF EVER COMPENSATING FOR ASIDE FROM BARREL STUFFING YOU AT 0 METERS deciding the fights. nor do i want atachments to become DayZ's equavelents of Perks/specs in CoD or BF where "o i haz this os i winz" the fact that the mod was built on arma 2's milsim core is what made its combat enjoyable. there are only 2 real things that will keep me from ever logging into SA again this is one of them. (the other is the zombies goring thru walls and floors and punching you from 10ft away making it to release)

[gibonez 3633]

Yup the dispersion is the single biggest problem in the game. Because of it probably only a single weapon is actually viable in game.

This is not about realism or gameplay.

This is about rewarding skill vs luck.

[xalienax 621]

Yup the dispersion is the single biggest problem in the game. Because of it probably only a single weapon is actually viable in game.

This is not about realism or gameplay.

This is about rewarding skill vs luck.

This.

 

DayZ is a slow paced game.. err. is supposed to be. with bero being basicly the only spawn its currently 24/7 death match in that town, but once we get back to a more dispersed map with more need to loot more spots to get what you want, having your primary means of both offense and defense be considerably dependant on variables outside of your control is not acceptable.

[pilgrim* 3513]

just one thing I don't understand (I'm not a gun person):

 

if attachments should NOT affect your shooting

then why do they exist in real life ?

 

xx

[gibonez 3633]

just one thing I don't understand (I'm not a gun person):

 

if attachments should NOT affect your shooting

then why do they exist in real life ?

 

xx

 

Do you like shorts or pants ?

 

Do you feel more comfortable in pants or shorts ?

 

Attachments do the same thing, just like pants and shorts it all comes down to personal preference.

 

People put attachments on guns because its more comfortable to them and like the weapon better with it not because it makes the gun more accurate.

 

Putting a piece of plastic at the end of your gun will not make it more accurate.

[Ghostflux 100]

did you even read the begining and end of my post? i hope its completely reverted to arma's shooting tbh, but the fact that they already have attachments that they modeled and coded effecting the mechanical accuracy (dispersion values) would suggest they intend for the random dispersion to remain a significant factor to gun performance. Yes this is alpha, but this is also the time to make a point of things we see as severely detrimental to gameplay and hopefully get them changed before the game is more or less finalized except for minor tweaks. this isnt a tweak issue, this is a throw away the current system and replace it fully issue.

 

Yep, and I don't think that disclaimers or apologies should be methods of getting rid of certain arguments. If you have knowledge of things, then why don't you act upon that knowledge. It makes no sense to me. In my opinion if you wanted a thread focussed at delivering a certain point, then take what we already know and build upon that. Basically if it was like ACE you would be happy right? That however doesn't require you to criticize the current system, when it's still a work in progress.

The topic would even be very useful if you perhaps have suggestions that go beyond the ACE system.

[Katana67 2907]

Well, yes, for the purposes of simply stating my position... I want random deviation gone.

 

But, if they're going to keep it, it just needs to be brought down to a "realistic" level. Now, this is one of those rare instances where "pure realism" and "pragmatic gameplay" concerns align. Because I want that minor element of consideration in whether or not my shot will land exactly where I thought it would, and just the straightforward side of a shooting mechanic.

 

Random deviation, when it's done on the order of feet or tens of feet, rather than inches/centimeters really ruins shooting mechanics. BF is a great example of how awful this can make a shooting mechanic, and ironically causes me to use CoD as an example of a decent and responsive shooting mechanic (albeit simplistic and heavily geared toward CQC to a detriment).

 

As to the subject of "condition," yes, keeping your weapon in pristine condition needs to be a thing. Or rather, in operable condition. Maintenance needs to be an activity, vice just picking up a generic "kit" and pressing "use" to have your character repair his/her weapon in a fixed animation. Weapon maintenance should be like vehicle maintenance, identifying a particular problem, and then fixing that particular problem with a particular action/part.

 

Having to maintain and repair one's weapon should be a concern, but it shouldn't be wholly artificial (a la Far Cry 2). It needs to be protracted, and relative to the environment. Likewise, it shouldn't be entirely out of the ordinary to find pristine weapons. I agree that certain weapons (i.e. "high-end" or "military" [i dislike both terms] weapons) should be markedly rare. But I don't want this becoming snorefest Dead Island or Melee 101, firearms should be a central facet of DayZ. So rather than making them rarer across the board, they need to be selective (albeit very significant in the approach of making weapons rare).

 

Which is why I think they need to fully embrace the maintenance aspect of firearms, as that should be what dictates the performance of the weapon (in addition, of course to player input). Vice arbitrary percentages.

 

And finally, I don't want the current implementation of attachments poisoning the water supply so to speak. Certain attachments do have reasonable benefits, which should be represented in-game. However, they need not randomly dictate down-range accuracy. Most attachments should just affect how the weapon handles on the player's side. The player should always be in control (within reason) of where his or her rounds end up. But things like lessened sway, faster on-target times, or slightly mitigated recoil, should be features capable of being offered by certain attachments.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Katana67

[pilgrim* 3513]

Do you like shorts or pants ?

 

Do you feel more comfortable in pants or shorts ?

 

Attachments do the same thing, just like pants and shorts it all comes down to personal preference.

 

People put attachments on guns because its more comfortable to them and like the weapon better with it not because it makes the gun more accurate.

 

Putting a piece of plastic at the end of your gun will not make it more accurate.

 

so there should be no attachments in the game and all old M4s shoot exactly the same ?

[gibonez 3633]

so there should be no attachments in the game and all old M4s shoot exactly the same ?

 

No but the attachments should affect the way the gun handles or be purely cosmetic like most attachments and gun accessories not magically make the gun more accurate.

[Irish. 4886]

For me it would only really require a few things to be perfect:

 

1. Scopes have real world values, so if its 4x.. it genuinely is 4x in game. 

 

2. Dispersion is tweaked. Pristine has realistic dispersion - a few inches at longer ranges, etc., Worn has slightly worse disp. @ 2-6" for longer ranges (longer ranges meaning 300-400m+ for say the M4) and the damaged versions would have fairly high dispersion much like it is now.

 

These values could also be different for varying weapons, such as low quality civilian rifles could have higher dispersion variables when worn/damaged than other weapons. Guns like the AK could be much more resilient to damage than some other weapons, like the M4 could be a very "fragile" weapon and could degrade easily if not maintained. Attachments should do nothing except for barrel sway while aiming - bipod, stocks could affect movement speed and rifle sway while aiming, but they should not in any way affect accuracy of bullet travel. There should be an animation for holding your rifle over your head while swimming or crossing water, and this could tie in with weapon degradation if you do just wade through with your weapon underwater. It would also be another form of showing your not hostile, hold rifle up overhead with both hands.. sort of like putting your hands up without dropping your weapon. Ammo should have damage values such as pristine and worn, etc. and should be a large risk to use when damaged. Maybe even have the rare jam or backfire.. ;)

Edited May 19, 2014 by lrish

[lumo1234 68]

I am pretty sure if you give me a gun and throw me in a life and death battle, I would need luck to hit something too...

 

We are some random survivors, not ex-military soldiers with expert gun training...

Lets make an experiment, go outside, get a Bow and Arrow and try to hit a Target 100m away. Lets see how accurate you shoot even after a day...

 

That is down to personal skill again, the arrow will still fly where you aim it, not decide that it wants to fly off in a random direction. Although using a bow an arrow as an example is not the best of arguments as you will now more than likely say the wind can blow it. Inexperience with firearms can be portrayed by as already stated in this thread more weapon sway, less control over recoil etc...

 

Im honestly hoping the current weapon implementation is broken, and the that all guns have the accuracy of either badly damaged or ruined weapons and is something that will be worked on in future development as it is currently what has forced me to stop playing dayz SA and move to the mod/breaking point as currently after exploring the map the only thing left to do is kill people and firefights in dayz SA are currently trash due to poor "dispersion".

 

Either way we will all have to wait and see how the devs decide to implement gunplay when the physics SDK is fully and correctly functioning.

[xalienax 621]

That is down to personal skill again, the arrow will still fly where you aim it, not decide that it wants to fly off in a random direction. Although using a bow an arrow as an example is not the best of arguments as you will now more than likely say the wind can blow it. Inexperience with firearms can be portrayed by as already stated in this thread more weapon sway, less control over recoil etc...

 

Im honestly hoping the current weapon implementation is broken, and the that all guns have the accuracy of either badly damaged or ruined weapons and is something that will be worked on in future development as it is currently what has forced me to stop playing dayz SA and move to the mod/breaking point as currently after exploring the map the only thing left to do is kill people and firefights in dayz SA are currently trash due to poor "dispersion".

 

Either way we will all have to wait and see how the devs decide to implement gunplay when the physics SDK is fully and correctly functioning.

pretty much my feelings. this is a play/no play level deal-breaker for me. Untill pristine weapons are behaving more like what one would expect in arma 2/3 i wont be wasting ym time patching or playing the SA.

 

the Zombie pathing (which is my other deal breaker) they have acknowledged at least. provided that gets sorted before beta or final i can forgive that making AI behave in this engine is a pain even when working with a functional base game as a modder, let alone when starting from scratch (having done some modding myself in A2). this is a matter of time imho.

[Katana67 2907]

-snip-

 

This is my only real gripe, if the developers would just flat out say "we plan on changing the dispersion mechanic as to make the weapons more accurate, as was in ARMA," or something to that affect then folks could shut up about it.

 

Granted, I sort of think it's implied when they stated they're looking into wind being a factor in ballistics. But, they need to be a bit more unequivocal.

[lumo1234 68]

pretty much my feelings. this is a play/no play level deal-breaker for me. Untill pristine weapons are behaving more like what one would expect in arma 2/3 i wont be wasting ym time patching or playing the SA.

 

the Zombie pathing (which is my other deal breaker) they have acknowledged at least. provided that gets sorted before beta or final i can forgive that making AI behave in this engine is a pain even when working with a functional base game as a modder, let alone when starting from scratch (having done some modding myself in A2). this is a matter of time imho.

 

I will be playing the next few experimental builds after the last dev blog as im looking forward to seeing the new navigation system the bratislava team has come up with, looks promising too. If thats worked out its then time for them to make zombies a force to avoid so we can chain knockout punch spam 6+ of them while screaming the standard "Yeah get down bitch! YEAH URGH!"

Edited May 19, 2014 by lumo1234

[xalienax 621]

This is my only real gripe, if the developers would just flat out say "we plan on changing the dispersion mechanic as to make the weapons more accurate, as was in ARMA," or something to that affect then folks could shut up about it.

 

Granted, I sort of think it's implied when they stated they're looking into wind being a factor in ballistics. But, they need to be a bit more unequivocal.

yeah. id love them to go all ace-mode on us with epic shooting simulation, but at this point i would settle for direct ports of weapons and code from A2 over what we have now.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

See it would be much better if they moved to fictional "hand crafted" firearms, then nobody could come all 'gun nerd' waving facts sheets and ballistic charts.

[gibonez 3633]

See it would be much better if they moved to fictional "hand crafted" firearms, then nobody could come all 'gun nerd' waving facts sheets and ballistic charts.

 

True nobody would complain then.

 

The thing is in any other community nobody would be complaining but the bulk of this community comes from Arma and mil sim games.

 

 Nobody complains about realism in rust why ? because that game is started off as being unrealistic.

 

Dayz SA is some messed up smash up of realistic and completely unrealistic additions its a mess.

[xalienax 621]

True nobody would complain then.

 

The thing is in any other community nobody would be complaining but the bulk of this community comes from Arma and mil sim games.

 

 Nobody complains about realism in rust why ? because that game is started off as being unrealistic.

 

Dayz SA is some messed up smash up of realistic and completely unrealistic additions its a mess.

this.

 

See it would be much better if they moved to fictional "hand crafted" firearms, then nobody could come all 'gun nerd' waving facts sheets and ballistic charts.

That would be fine if they didnt release this as DayZ. produced by the developers of the arma series (BI studios), which was the bases for the original dayZ mod, which in turn gave birth to the SA even existing. this is always a problem with things like this. when you have an existing comunity in your mod, series, etc. and you try to move to a retail stand alone or do a 'reboot' title all your vets expect thier old experience with some polish and hate you if you fail to deliver that xD.

 

I would have never played the mod if i hadnt already been an arma player.

I wouldnt have never bought the SA if i hadn't enjoyed the MOD's gameplay.

 

dayZ DOES = Arma II with zombies in my eyes. most of us who came in as existing arma 2 players feel that way.