Petition: No more randomness in weapons, SKILL based combat.

[alsmir 255]

You want accurate guns - guns that act like real guns

So do I, so do we all.

Hey dudes, EVERYBODY wants guns that perform like real guns. OK no problem.

But this poll does not ask that, it says:

<< SKILL based Combat >>

 

Now - in a game - WHAT does "SKILL based Combat" have to do with "gun realism" ?? I REALLY hope you understand these are 2 different things.

If you have gun realism HOW do you get "SKILL based Combat" into the gameplay?

I'm not going to suggest answers, I already wrote about the problem and got no answer from the ArmA gun lobby.

I guess you have some propositions of how to implement "sway", "recoil control" etc., and how those will work in the game and be playable. Remember also, these gameplay elements have to be server side or cheaters will just shut them off (like players turn off post processing). Then the game will fall straight back to being ArmA2 again. Who needs that?

 

Read what Mithrawndo said a couple of posts earler - understand what this means for GAMEPLAY in a SURVIVAL+ZOMBIE game that has GUNS in it.

 

Because what this game HAS, that is NOT in ArmA2 is - hunger, fatigue, cold, wet, bloodloss, shock (fear) - and that's WHY this game exists.

If you only want accurate guns, play ArmA3, or wait till the devs get around to "accurate guns + survival gameplay"

If you want to play DayZ then PLEASE SUGGEST how to implement Combat GAMEPLAY that will advance the game. SKILL based Combat does NOT mean 'point and click', I hope.

 

Please understand this.

Do you think the dispersion variables were programmed in by mistake? Maybe the dev turned around to get a coffee and a cat walked across the keyboard? Why would he spend his time messing up perfectly good ArmA gameplay to produce a different game that plays differently? What are those devs aiming for?

 

So we all agree, guns can mirror real world guns, that will be cool. No silly attachments, cool. Really not a problem.

Now lets hear your proposals for "SKILL based Combat in a computer game"

 

because "SKILL based Combat" is what this poll is about, right? That's what's written at the top of this thread. SKILL based Combat, in a mouse-and-keyboard, server-side simulation, survival game. Be creative, gun people, propose solutions.

 

ok, thanx for listening

xx pilgrim

 

Jesus, read the first post in the thread.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Jesus, read the first post in the thread.

 

Jesus - what do you propose ?  What have you got in your hand dude, is it a gun or a mouse ?

Edited May 20, 2014 by pilgrim

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Not sure what the issue is here.  My bullets go where I aim unless I've been running for 30 mins straight.  Do we also need a wall run and double jump to make this a more skilled based shooter?

[xalienax 621]

Not sure what the issue is here.  My bullets go where I aim unless I've been running for 30 mins straight.  Do we also need a wall run and double jump to make this a more skilled based shooter?

I assume your using the mosin. the other weapons have an excessive amount of deviation from the aimpoint that is not realistic in anyway.

 

-snip-

It's about skill becuase im asking for mechanics that force the human at the keyboard to actively over-come representations of his fatugue, pain, etc with input to keep on target; rather then some "invisibile system" that just means your going to spray like a garden hose no matter what you do.

 

i am *NOT* for the 100th time, asking for counter-strike like gun play where you point click and insta kill. I am asking for things like wind effects, gun sway, evn perhaps acceleration effects applied to heavier weapons to make them feel "heavier". Bullet drop, manual dialing of scopes for snipers base don real world values, etc.

 

these all take skill and practice to be able to over come in real time in a gun fight. untill we all are playing dayZ while running on a treadmill with an occulus rift, using an AKM analogue to shoot with simulating these elements with mechanics the player can see and compensate for is the best we can do. the point is to make the deciding factor YOU, the person at the keyboard.

[Katana67 2907]

I assume your using the mosin. the other weapons have an excessive amount of deviation from the aimpoint that is not realistic in anyway.

 

It's about skill becuase im asking for mechanics that force the human at the keyboard to actively over-come representations of his fatugue, pain, etc with input to keep on target; rather then some "invisibile system" that just means your going to spray like a garden hose no matter what you do.

 

i am *NOT* for the 100th time, asking for counter-strike like gun play where you point click and insta kill. I am asking for things like wind effects, gun sway, evn perhaps acceleration effects applied to heavier weapons to make them feel "heavier". Bullet drop, manual dialing of scopes for snipers base don real world values, etc.

 

these all take skill and practice to be able to over come in real time in a gun fight. untill we all are playing dayZ while running on a treadmill with an occulus rift, using an AKM analogue to shoot with simulating these elements with mechanics the player can see and compensate for is the best we can do. the point is to make the deciding factor YOU, the person at the keyboard.

 

People hear "remove/minimize random deviation," or "we need realistic ballistics" and think "the guy wants us to be firing laser beams!"

 

That and people mistake pre-shot randomization (i.e. having to counter sway whilst sighting in a target) for post-shot randomization (i.e. after you've sighted in a target and fired, your round goes elsewhere based on an arbitrary deviation value).

[pilgrim* 3514]

I assume your using the mosin. the other weapons have an excessive amount of deviation from the aimpoint that is not realistic in anyway.

 

It's about skill becuase im asking for mechanics that force the human at the keyboard to actively over-come representations of his fatugue, pain, etc with input to keep on target; rather then some "invisibile system" that just means your going to spray like a garden hose no matter what you do.

 

i am *NOT* for the 100th time, asking for counter-strike like gun play where you point click and insta kill. I am asking for things like wind effects, gun sway, evn perhaps acceleration effects applied to heavier weapons to make them feel "heavier". Bullet drop, manual dialing of scopes for snipers base don real world values, etc.

 

these all take skill and practice to be able to over come in real time in a gun fight. untill we all are playing dayZ while running on a treadmill with an occulus rift, using an AKM analogue to shoot with simulating these elements with mechanics the player can see and compensate for is the best we can do. the point is to make the deciding factor YOU, the person at the keyboard.

 

Yes I understand. I agree with having realistic gun parameters. I think everyone does.

 

Starting from that agreement, the problem is how to get the state of the player, and maybe the state of the equipment too, to reflect in the game.

 

It seems to me, that any modifications to the players ability to aim - sway for instance - must be sent by the server. So the server must move your muzzle mm by mm, with no rubberbanding, no lag.. or you would go crazy trying to aim.

I think this might be technically difficult.

If sway is locally generated on your PC, any scripter could cancel it out to have perfect aim whatever his avatar's state.

 

I will be completely happy if I am wrong about this.

In the past in these forums I have asked for suggestions on how to implement changes in avatar ability. So far the reply seems to be "someone should get to work and come up with something better"

 

xx

 

[the difference between DayZ and ArmA  - is that this game is not about tactics and weapons, it is about survival, and zombies, fire, food, axes, animals, illness, injury, and many other elements, are exactly as important as weapons, firearms are only one part of the game among many]

Edited May 20, 2014 by pilgrim

[scriptfactory 620]

It seems to me, that any modifications to the players ability to aim - sway for instance - must be sent by the server. So the server must move your muzzle mm by mm, with no rubberbanding, no lag.. or you would go crazy trying to aim.

I think this might be technically difficult. If sway is locally generated on your PC, any scripter could cancel it out to have perfect aim whatever his avatar's state.

 

Sway would have to be handled by the game client and, yes, it is susceptible to hacking. But I believe the current dispersion system in SA is also calculated in the client.

 

[the difference between DayZ and ArmA  - is that this game is not about tactics and weapons, it is about survival, and zombies, fire, food, axes, animals, illness, injury, and many other elements, are exactly as important as weapons, firearms are only one part of the game among many]

 

Very valid point. Rocket has said that he wants players to provide the primary source of tension in DayZ, as they always have. But he also said he was creating a zombie survival game, not an ultra-realistic shooter with zombies. There is probably a reason dispersion is in the game in its current form.

Honestly, though. I get sick of all of the talk of realism and immersion. I just want to play a fun, hardcore game.

[pilgrim* 3514]

 

Sway would have to be handled by the game client and, yes, it is susceptible to hacking. But I believe the current dispersion system in SA is also calculated in the client.

..//..

 

If dispersion was currently client-side, ALL the gun-people would already have written in "zero" and be out wasting players instead of writing threads.

Or maybe I'm wrong?

 

DayZ would come down to "the marksmen with zero dispersion" against "the kids with infinite ammo"

(heh.. heh..)

Edited May 20, 2014 by pilgrim

[xalienax 621]

1. you cant make anything 100% secure except by making it single player lol. you can however do a lot to make it HARDER to hack. also you need something other then BE's occasional updates and wave banning. they really need thier own anti cheat with professional Programmers and staff to stay ontop of the latest comercially available hacks and scripts circulating the web. (google is your friend) and constantly update the detction and auto banning software accordingly.

 

2. Game features/gameplay quality should not be significantly compromised in order to take the easier path with cheat prevention. If we are to sacrifice features and game play because they might be exploited by griefers, then the script kiddies have already won compleetely.

 

3. as i have suggested; if you been running to much sway is increased. perhaps have the quality of the weapon add dispersion (so pristine would be like arma 2, and damaged would be like it is now with several stages in between.) this would make weapon care and maitenance an activity.

 

4. At the end of they day your character in game is a blank analogue. you are not playing a pre-defined persona. it represents the person behind the keyborad (or the persona they create in thier own imagination if they are seriously into RP-ing). there for, we should not be simulating the ineptness NOR the expertise of the player avatar- just thier status and that of the weapon. any ineptness or expertise with a weapon system is purely that of the person in real life at the keyboard.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Sovetsky

[Katana67 2907]

4. At the end of they day your character in game is a blank analogue. you are not playing a pre-defined persona. it represents the person behind the keyborad (or the persona they create in thier own imagination if they are seriously into RP-ing). there for, we should not be simulating the ineptness NOR the expertise of the player avatar- just thier status and that of the weapon. any ineptness or expertise with a weapon system is purely that of the person in real life at the keyboard.

 

This.

 

A weapon will hit a target if John F. Civilian aims it properly at a target or Blake J. MARSOC aims it properly at a target.

 

As we're not playing as a character, the only thing left to do is just render the weapons and shooting to be more WYSIWYG. The player demonstrates his/her prowess or ineptitude in being able or unable to hit a target in-game. There's no reason to add another layer of randomness as manifested in "random deviation" when you've got a shooting mechanic which rewards/punishes player accuracy.

[scriptfactory 620]

This.

 

A weapon will hit a target if John F. Civilian aims it properly at a target or Blake J. MARSOC aims it properly at a target.

 

As we're not playing as a character, the only thing left to do is just render the weapons and shooting to be more WYSIWYG. The player demonstrates his/her prowess or ineptitude in being able or unable to hit a target in-game. There's no reason to add another layer of randomness as manifested in "random deviation" when you've got a shooting mechanic which rewards/punishes player accuracy.

 

I am curious to know what you guys are basing these claims on. This avatar has a distinct look and gender. Rocket obviously wants us to "pretend" to be survivors in a zombie apocalypse and he added dispersion for a reason. I am not outright disagreeing with you but you are making claims that run counter to the game mechanics that have, so far, been implemented.

[gibonez 3633]

I am curious to know what you guys are basing these claims on. This avatar has a distinct look and gender. Rocket obviously wants us to "pretend" to be survivors in a zombie apocalypse and he added dispersion for a reason. I am not outright disagreeing with you but you are making claims that run counter to the game mechanics that have, so far, been implemented.

 

The dispersion seems to be there to give value to the accessory system.

 

It gives some accessories that would otherwise in real life be purely cosmetic additions a real in game value.

 

While the idea is nice it results in shit gameplay and unrealistic unreliable gameplay.

[scriptfactory 620]

The dispersion seems to be there to give value to the accessory system.

 

It gives some accessories that would otherwise in real life be purely cosmetic additions a real in game value.

 

While the idea is nice it results in shit gameplay and unrealistic unreliable gameplay.

 

Right. But this is obviously what Rocket wanted. So, what I am saying is, why do you believe that this isn't the way that Rocket wants the game to be? What if his primary concern wasn't on gunplay? Rocket stated he actually doesn't like first-person shooters. We actually don't know why the dispersion system was implemented in this way but it seems that the realism that existed in Mod was only because it was built on Arma 2.

So... maybe this is the way he envisioned his game. To be quite honest, if you guys wanted to play an ultra-realistic shooter with optional zombies then DayZ isn't the game for you.

[gibonez 3633]

Right. But this is obviously what Rocket wanted. So, what I am saying is, why do you believe that this isn't the way that Rocket wants the game to be? What if his primary concern wasn't on gunplay? Rocket stated he actually doesn't like first-person shooters. We actually don't know why the dispersion system was implemented in this way but it seems that the realism that existed in Mod was only because it was built on Arma 2.

So... maybe this is the way he envisioned his game. To be quite honest, if you guys wanted to play an ultra-realistic shooter with optional zombies then DayZ isn't the game for you.

 

I don't know what rocket wanted or nor do I care.

 

All I know is what I feel.

 

I happen to feel this is garbage and results in shit gameplay that rewards luck.

[scriptfactory 620]

I don't know what rocket wanted or nor do I care.

 

All I know is what I feel.

 

I happen to feel this is garbage and results in shit gameplay that rewards luck.

 

Gotcha.

[Katana67 2907]

I am curious to know what you guys are basing these claims on. This avatar has a distinct look and gender. Rocket obviously wants us to "pretend" to be survivors in a zombie apocalypse and he added dispersion for a reason. I am not outright disagreeing with you but you are making claims that run counter to the game mechanics that have, so far, been implemented.

 

You're referring to aesthetics, what your avatar in-game LOOKS like.

 

Which is entirely different from reading a potential background into these avatars. Backgrounds and traits aren't assigned to the avatars by the game, to any degree other than aesthetics (i.e. male or female).

 

If "he" added dispersion for a reason, it doesn't make it a GOOD reason. Hence why I disagree with it. I disagree with it in BF too, as a concept.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

This avatar has a distinct look and gender.

[Element47 2480]

what if i want the game to be more like that other Bohemia zombie game?

 

 

 

dont get me wrong, but discussing where a game should head based on its heritage - not sure if thats not too limiting
 

Edited May 20, 2014 by e47

[gibonez 3633]

what if i want the game to be more like that other Bohemia zombie game?

 

 

 

dont get me wrong, but discussing where a game should head based on its heritage - not sure if thats not too limiting

 

 

Sad thing is the movement speed in stand alone is still faster than that arcade game in the video.

[Element47 2480]

Sad thing is the movement speed in stand alone is still faster than that arcade game in the video.

 

it also has better blood effects than Arma & DayZ :D

[PhillyT 554]

If you don't think the system already rewards skill, then you aren't fighting enough players.  I am not a deathmatch player really, but I have killed 13 people in the last week and a half, several on the one night I deathmatched in Berezino.

 

I also play with the best player I have ever had the chance to run with on a regular basis.  I see him plug guys on the move with an ACOG M4 from 100 - 300 meters with scary regularity.

 

Play, practice, stop making excuses.

[attackm0de 38]

I don't get the OP, Ive played arma games and dayz and cant tell whats different. So long as everyone has the same game in front of them, its an even playing field.

[xalienax 621]

I don't get the OP, Ive played arma games and dayz and cant tell whats different. So long as everyone has the same game in front of them, its an even playing field.

the problem is you round a corner. theres another person in the street with an M4. you both start shooting.

 

right now the overly stupid cone of fire "random dispersion" has a significant effect on whose landing more bullets. this fight will be significantly effected by getting lucky with the "dispersion gods". it should not be that way.

[gibonez 3633]

If only Dayz had this type of sway

 

There would be zero need for the crappy dispersion and accessory system.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

what if i want the game to be more like that other Bohemia zombie game?

 

 

 

dont get me wrong, but discussing where a game should head based on its heritage - not sure if thats not too limiting

 

Well... where you or i want the game to go doesnt really matter does it?