Petition: No more randomness in weapons, SKILL based combat.

[xalienax 621]

First, I would like to apologize if the current dispersion in firearms is a mere placeholder; However considering that attachements that effect it are already being introduced i cant help but feel they intend to keep it. For that reason, I am asking all of you who care about the future of this game to stand by me by saying that this is 100% un-acceptable. that this current system MUST GO!

 

 

To the developers;

Arma already had solid shooting mechanics, that could have been enhanced, much like the ACE mod did with manually dialed scopes for snipers, windage, etc. What you have done, is ruin skill based PvP and PvE with arbitrary dispersion values/patterns which no player can anticipate and correct for. hitting targets at any meanigful range is not a matter of skill, or atleast not entirely. Many dedicated comunity members who have been here since the mod have offered detailed explanations of ways you could improve shooting in a way thats both realistic and Skill-based.

 

Weapon sway based on attachments, fatigue, and pain- The PLAYER can over come the weapon movements by anticipating them and correcting in real time with the mouse. Skill in the form of small, precise, constant adjustments to stay on target.

 

Weather/Wind effects- Well portrayed by the ACE mod again, it relies on the PLAYER esitmating the variables involved and adjusting. there is no secret "under the hood" magic in play here. every variable can more or less be observed and anticipated with practice and understanding.

 

Im sure, if given the time and dedication you seem to be willing to put into other things you could come up with some combination of all these great ways you can have an authentic shooting experience that is based on individual skill not "my attachments are better then yours and base gun stats suck".

 

To the players and community;

Please support skill based gameplay built around learning and adapting to whats on your screen, not having your fate determined by some arbatrary values hidden in a file somewhere, which have no real-time representation that you can observe and adapt to. Remember that those listed above are just a few possibilities. im open to any system that results in firefights being about the gun and YOUR skill at using it, and you should be to! if anything it's narrowminded focus on "balancing" the attachments that resulted in the crap we have now.

 

regards;

-someone who wants skill involved in thier gameplay.

 

DISCLAIMER TO THE "ALPHA" POLICE:

I know this is an alpha. I know some things may be place holders. but you know what? now is the time to make the devs know that we are NOT okay with something. this isn't about expecting it to be fixed tomorrow, or having a perfect game tonight. its about us the players saying we are not okay with arcadey variables determined by attachments in our dayZ. now is the time to stand up and demand changes not once it has gone final release. if enough people are extremely vocal about it now, just maybe it'll be taken care of.

[FrostDMG 398]

While I agree that shooting should be skill based, I think that the random dispersion should stay in the game - hear me out:

 

• Most weapons should not be pristine, and hence dirty/damaged making them less accurate
• Pristine weapons should be 100% accurate, but it should also take you time to either find the gun that's pristine or find the parts (stocks shouldn't affect the spread but whatever).
• Weapons should get damaged over time/extensive usage - cleaning should be available in order to increase the longevity of the weapon.
• Guns should be rare as hell.

[scriptfactory 620]

If we are playing normal people that are trying to survive an apocalypse the dispersion system should stay as is. Not everyone receives military training and we are not supposed to be playing DayZ as former soldiers.

I would be in favor of a "background" system. This way, people can choose a "military veteran" background and shoot with way more accuracy that someone without training. There should be negatives to balance this significant advantage (e.g. if you kill a civilian you lose "points" for going against your training.)

[FrostDMG 398]

If we are playing normal people that are trying to survive an apocalypse the dispersion system should stay as is. Not everyone receives military training and we are not supposed to be playing DayZ as former soldiers.

I would be in favor of a "background" system. This way, people can choose a "military veteran" background and shoot with way more accuracy that someone without training. There should be negatives to balance this significant advantage (e.g. if you kill a civilian you lose "points" for going against your training.)

 

That's not the point. You could go to a shooting range today, pick up an AKM or whatever rifle you prefer and once you get the hang of the sights, you'll see that all the shots go right where you aimed. Sure you won't be used to the recoil and you'll most likely sway a fair bit, but assuming the gun's in good condition, bullets should go straight.

 

To imitate the survivors being civilian, things such as more sway, even less accurate hipfire, bad handling of recoil - those things should be added instead. 

[Ghostflux 100]

The question here more importantly is: Why do you feel like they intend to keep it? When they have specifically mentioned that the whole system is getting an overhaul?

 

This thread makes no sense to me.

[xalienax 621]

That's not the point. You could go to a shooting range today, pick up an AKM or whatever rifle you prefer and once you get the hang of the sights, you'll see that all the shots go right where you aimed. Sure you won't be used to the recoil and you'll most likely sway a fair bit, but assuming the gun's in good condition, bullets should go straight.

 

To imitate the survivors being civilian, things such as more sway, even less accurate hipfire, bad handling of recoil - those things should be added instead. 

This. no one is asking for Counterstrike bullet lasers. were just asking for weapons that require you to actively compensate with inputs to steady the gun moving yon your screen. to estimate range and wind when sniping, etc. real world factors that you can SEE and LEARN to adjust for. this is the same you becoming more experienced that that weapon IRL. as you learn over time you start to anticipate how much you have to draw down your mouse to compensate muzzle climb for a certain gun, or how much you have to move right to counter a left sway base don what your seeing on screen.

 

not random does not = easy mode.

[Shockpuppet 35]

Its like you never read the statements about bullet physics and also weather affecting gunplay.

[xalienax 621]

The question here more importantly is: Why do you feel like they intend to keep it? When they have specifically mentioned that the whole system is getting an overhaul?

 

This thread makes no sense to me.

did you even read the begining and end of my post? i hope its completely reverted to arma's shooting tbh, but the fact that they already have attachments that they modeled and coded effecting the mechanical accuracy (dispersion values) would suggest they intend for the random dispersion to remain a significant factor to gun performance. Yes this is alpha, but this is also the time to make a point of things we see as severely detrimental to gameplay and hopefully get them changed before the game is more or less finalized except for minor tweaks. this isnt a tweak issue, this is a throw away the current system and replace it fully issue.

[Raoul9753 166]

I support everything that means I have more chance to get out alive when some freaking snipr sees me...

[xalienax 621]

I support everything that means I have more chance to get out alive when some freaking snipr sees me...

this would make it require more effort, and more practice on that sniper's part to make accurate long range shots in a timely manner. all it does is shift the factors from luck to player skills & experience.

[Karmaterror 982]

They took a great mill sim....and screwed with the ballistics....fail lol

 

However Frost brings up a good point, how do we know these aren't the dispersal patterns for a badly damaged gun and that system hasn't been fully implemented yet. Now I could get behind having crappy dispersal on a nearly dead gun, and arma like on a pristine. Then have the attachments manage sway and other things :D

 

But if that's not the case give us arma shooting echanics back + the weather and wind effecting shots. That would be awesome :)

 

Oh and if you want skill based.....bring back mouse acceleration!

oops did I say that out loud : :P

Edited May 19, 2014 by Karmaterror

[scriptfactory 620]

To imitate the survivors being civilian, things such as more sway, even less accurate hipfire, bad handling of recoil - those things should be added instead. 

 

Gotcha. That makes much more sense. Agreed.

[xalienax 621]

They took a great mill sim....and screwed with the ballistics....fail lol

 

However Frost brings up a good point, how do we know these aren't the dispersal patterns for a badly damaged gun and that system hasn't been fully implemented yet. Now I could get behind having crappy dispersal on a nearly dead gun, and arma like on a pristine. Then have the attachments manage sway and other things :D

 

But if that's not the case give us arma shooting echanics back + the weather and wind effecting shots. That would be awesome :)

 

Oh and if you want skill based.....bring back mouse acceleration!

oops did I say that out loud : :P

pretty much this. as i said in the oppening and ending of my OP, i do hope that the current is a place holder, but this bing alpha- the time when features are still being investigated and deciding what to keep and what to scratch, NOW is our best time to impact the direction they go with this, not sitting here quitely till release and then screaming "I HATE ROCKET FOR BAD GUNS"

[Raoul9753 166]

I am pretty sure if you give me a gun and throw me in a life and death battle, I would need luck to hit something too...

 

We are some random survivors, not ex-military soldiers with expert gun training...

Lets make an experiment, go outside, get a Bow and Arrow and try to hit a Target 100m away. Lets see how accurate you shoot even after a day...

Edited May 19, 2014 by Raoul9753

[nexventor 429]

It should be about skill and bullet dispersion can burn in hell.

 

/story

 

In saying that "balancing" and bullet mechanics is for later on down the path. Don't get me wrong, discuss it all you like but it will be refined I promise you. You can't compare this to arma, although it seems it a bit copy and paste this is a build from the ground up.

[EndOfDayZ 36]

That's not the point. You could go to a shooting range today, pick up an AKM or whatever rifle you prefer and once you get the hang of the sights, you'll see that all the shots go right where you aimed. Sure you won't be used to the recoil and you'll most likely sway a fair bit, but assuming the gun's in good condition, bullets should go straight.

 

To imitate the survivors being civilian, things such as more sway, even less accurate hipfire, bad handling of recoil - those things should be added instead. 

This is a fairly inaccurate statement.

It takes a LONG TIME and A LOT OF PRACTICE to become proficient with any single weapon system.

When you have a lot of experience with a particular platform (LSW/Assault Rifle/Handgun etc) YES it is EASIER to become proficient with other weapons quickly as you have the basic marksmanship principles nailed down and you have a lot of experience in the physical handling of weapons.

You don't just got to the range, pick up your first ever assault rifle, point and shoot and a few hours later you are pulling off 400m centre of mass shots on moving targets from an unsupported kneeling position, just because your sights are 'pointing' at them.

Simply holding a weapon steady is difficult enough, let alone properly aligning the eye/sight/target, using a correct breathing pattern, establishing and maintaining an effective and stable firing position,different types of sights, correct trigger manipulation, recoil compensation, the list GOES ON AND ON.

Then there is fatigue, adrenaline, rates of fire, are you moving? are they moving? are you doing slow well aimed shots, are you banging rounds off flat out while looking OVER THE TOP of a set of optics so you don't get tunnel vision?

I guarantee you without someone showing you how to do it, most people would be flat out picking up and holding a weapon properly, let alone loading a magazine with rounds, loading the weapon and going through the correct weapon drills and then effectively employing it over any sort of difference.

Most people would pray and spray, then run.

I am sorry I am not offering a better system to use, the random dispersion system isn't ideal, either is "Stop the sway" and you can hit someone 800m away with a scoped Mosin. I just don't understand what you want, if you think making it 'realistic' means everyone is a top shot with any weapon as long as they are holding the weapon still.

Sorry to rant, I really am, I am trying to offer constructive input. I have doe a bit of shooting with different weapons in my 6 years as a rifleman and I am far from a perfect shot and still aim to improve every time I hit the range, as it is definitely something that takes years, not hours.

Some weapons I am experienced with.

F88 Austeyer 5.56mm with Iron Sights/Standard optics/ELCANS/ACOG

F89 Minimi 5.56mm with Iron Sights/Standard optics/ELCANS/ACOG/Holographic sight

MAXIMI 7.62mm Iron Sights/Holographic sight

M203 40mm GLA - All available ammo types

M79 40mm Grenade Launcher - All available ammo sights

Remington 870 12G - Folding and Fixed stock

Browning M2 . 50Cal - in Direct and indirect fire roles

FN Mag 58 7.62mm - in direct and indirect fire roles

Browning Hi Power 9mm Mk 2 and 3 

HK 417 - suppressed and un-suppressed with various sights

M4 with Various attachments

M16 A1 and A2

Blaser Tactical 2 Sniper Rifle

Carl Gustav 84mm recoilless rifle

M72A6 (LAW)

Javelin Launcher

 

 

Still never fired the Barrett .50 :( always in the wrong place when one comes out.

 

Edited May 19, 2014 by EndOfDayZ

[xalienax 621]

It should be about skill and bullet dispersion can burn in hell.

 

/story

 

In saying that "balancing" and bullet mechanics is for later on down the path. Don't get me wrong, discuss it all you like but it will be refined I promise you. You can't compare this to arma, although it seems it a bit copy and paste this is a build from the ground up.

you can absolutely compare it to arma.

 

It's a predecessor to an Arma II mod.

Its built on a modified, slightly later version of the same engine.

There is no reason all the mechanics from the mod couldnt work if the devs werent so dam intent on seperating the two.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Its certainly not a "deal breaker" for me, but I would prefer a more Arma-esque ACE-ish plus system.

 

I like the idea of badly maintained weapons having increased dispersion.

 

But guys, before we all get to argumentative and shouty we need to actually know if the dispersion we have in now will be the norm.

 

I suspect not.

 

I hope not.

 

So let's not jump to conclusions or get too grumpy but it is good to have a chat about.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[xalienax 621]

This is a fairly inaccurate statement.

It takes a LONG TIME and A LOT OF PRACTICE to become proficient with any single weapon system.

When you have a lot of experience with a particular platform (LSW/Assault Rifle/Handgun etc) YES it is EASIER to become proficient with other weapons quickly as you have the basic marksmanship principles nailed down and you have a lot of experience in the physical handling of weapons.

You don't just got to the range, pick up your first ever assault rifle, point and shoot and a few hours later you are pulling off 400m centre of mass shots on moving targets from an unsupported kneeling position, just because your sights are 'pointing' at them.

Simply holding a weapon steady is difficult enough, let alone properly aligning the eye/sight/target, using a correct breathing pattern, establishing and maintaining an effective and stable firing position,different types of sights, correct trigger manipulation, recoil compensation, the list GOES ON AND ON.

Then there is fatigue, adrenaline, rates of fire, are you moving? are they moving? are you doing slow well aimed shots, are you banging rounds off flat out while looking OVER THE TOP of a set of optics so you don't get tunnel vision?

I guarantee you without someone showing you how to do it, most people would be flat out picking up and holding a weapon properly, let alone loading a magazine with rounds, loading the weapon and going through the correct weapon drills and then effectively employing it over any sort of difference.

Most people would pray and spray, then run.

I am sorry I am not offering a better system to use, the random dispersion system isn't ideal, either is "Stop the sway" and you can hit someone 800m away with a scoped Mosin. I just don't understand what you want, if you think making it 'realistic' means everyone is a top shot with any weapon as long as they are holding the weapon still.

Sorry to rant, I really am, I am trying to offer constructive input. I have doe a bit of shooting with different weapons in my 6 years as a rifleman and I am far from a perfect shot and still aim to improve every time I hit the range, as it is definitely something that takes years, not hours.

Some weapons I am experienced with.

F88 Austeyer 5.56mm with Iron Sights/Standard optics/ELCANS/ACOG

F89 Minimi 5.56mm with Iron Sights/Standard optics/ELCANS/ACOG/Holographic sight

MAXIMI 7.62mm Iron Sights/Holographic sight

M203 40mm GLA - All available ammo types

M79 40mm Grenade Launcher - All available ammo sights

Remington 870 12G - Folding and Fixed stock

Browning M2 . 50Cal - in Direct and indirect fire roles

FN Mag 58 7.62mm - in direct and indirect fire roles

Browning Hi Power 9mm Mk 2 and 3 

HK 417 - suppressed and un-suppressed with various sights

M4 with Various attachments

M16 A1 and A2

Blaser Tactical 2 Sniper Rifle

Carl Gustav 84mm recoilless rifle

M72A6 (LAW)

Javelin Launcher

 

 

Still never fired the Barrett .50 :( always in the wrong place when one comes out.

 

Great post mate. I dont think anyone here is of the illusion that you can make a game 100% accurate to life. This is even more true when yor looking at something as multi-faceted as arma  or dayZ.

 some examples

 

DCS Black shark beautifully simulates the KA-50 attack chopper. stress that can damage the rotors, damage from AA fire effects aerodynamics, just learning the Start up proceedures takes hours- and dozens and dozens of runthroughs to learn to memory. forget setting up the nav system, weapons, or autopilot computer. but you know what? the deverlopers of DCS didnt have to contend with balancing, player controlled ground units, survival, building, infantry weapons, etc.

 

what we want is to make shooting in this GAME about player SKILL, in the most authentic way we can within the confines of a multifaceted game. i think adding weather effects, sway, and semi-realistic ballistic values for mechanical accuracy is the best way. we can and should being as many real world factors as possible into the equation, but when all is said and done we cant have players run in treadmill, wearing an occulus rift wile carrying an AKM anaolge controller to shoot with. (tho that sounds freaking awesome)

[EndOfDayZ 36]

IDEALLY I believe you would need a weapon handling proficiency system where practice made perfect with each weapon, not the players practice, but the in game characters practice, similar to the Skyrim system. Unfortunately it isn't really plausible without being a huge pain in the ass to use though.

Add realistic ballistic behaviour individually modelled for each weapon (cones of fire,recoil,rates of fire etc) and a realistic environmental effect system and it would be sweet.
Then players could be affected by hunger, fatigue, injury, breathlessness, firing position and suppression, and it would be as close to realistic as possible without making it perfectly real.

Unfortunately that would be super difficult to implement and not actually fun. SO IMO it needs a good middle ground, a little dispersion from different positions at different fire rates, more sway in different positions, and more sway when breathless or fatigued/hungry/injured/suppressed, and leave it at that. It works in 95% of other games (The S.T.A.L.K.E.R SoC Dispersion system is a FKING Nightmare!!)

EDIT: Sovetsky concluded the same thing 20 seconds earlier haha.

Edited May 19, 2014 by EndOfDayZ

[nexventor 429]

you can absolutely compare it to arma.

 

It's a predecessor to an Arma II mod.

Its built on a modified, slightly later version of the same engine.

There is no reason all the mechanics from the mod couldnt work if the devs werent so dam intent on seperating the two.

 

Ok lets compare a game that isn't out from alpha to game that has not only been fully released for years but also mod tools to allow the community to develop additional goodies.

 

Think about this, are there bino's in arma? Do they work better than DayZ? Do you think the bino's in DayZ will always work the way they do now? Of course not but with your logic cause they work in arma they must work in DayZ it's the same engine. 

 

It's called the development process and clearly with you have no understanding of it. Balancing will occur at the end of the process 

 

Well done champ, cry some more  :thumbsup:

[OrLoK 16185]

 

Well done champ, cry some more  :thumbsup:

No real need for that the OP is discussing his worries, not ranting or wailing.

 

L

[FrostDMG 398]

This is a fairly inaccurate statement.

It takes a LONG TIME and A LOT OF PRACTICE to become proficient with any single weapon system.

 

SNIP

 

Yes, of course, however, you don't need elite training to become an alright shot - and that's all we need. Since we can't replicate most of the things mentioned, we should concentrate on those which we can.

 

A toddler could hit a moving target 800 meters away - how? Simply by pulling the trigger at the right time and having the scope in the right place. My point being, bullets go straight. 

 

The challenge for the players should be to maintain their sights on the target and pulling the trigger at precisely the right moment - that's where the skill comes in.

That's why sway and recoil should be the two obstacles when aiming down sight - feeling out of breath after sprinting then aiming etc...

[EndOfDayZ 36]

But that would just be shooting "lasers" at one another, which would just upset everyone just as much.

[xalienax 621]

But that would just be shooting "lasers" at one another, which would just upset everyone just as much.

not really,

 

Weapon sway (affected by exhaustion, pain, position, etc)

Wind/weather factors

Bullet drop over distance

recoil and muzzle climb

Bullet travel time (have to lead targets properly)

 

and you have to estimate and compensate for all this in real time while dodging zombies and being shot at by the other player(s). the skill is in the actual human player that the keboard anticipating all these factors and compensating accordingly- in a timely manner. as for sniping i sugges they go full ACE mechanics like this;