So, any word yet on when/if we will get realistic (not random) balistics?

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I'll just say that I believe nobody suggests that dispersion need to be taken out from weapons. We just want more realistic level dispersion and let other mechanics like weapon sway and kick and even a wind to simulate the inaccuracy just like in real life. Being a 12 year old doesn't suddenly make the gun spread bullets like crazy compared to 32 year old military guy.

There are better ways to simulate inaccuracy than huge weapon dispersion. Weapon dispersion increase depending in the condition of the bullets, attachments and gun and even depending on what weapon attachments you've is fine for me. The dispersion change should be minimal if you attach bayonet on M4 for example. The sway and how quickly or well you can react in tigh space should be the main effects.

[gibonez 3633]

How is a PU scope on an SKS unrealistic? It can be done in reality, it is therefore "realistic" (however unlikely) for it to be in DayZ. Same thing applies to the LRS and Mosin.

 

 

 

You can have all weapons be modular, or you can have certain attachments be marginally flexible (i.e. LRS and PU) for those weapons which are not modular (i.e. Mosin and SKS).

 

Otherwise, it's just more work for the developers to design an optic for every last weapon just to make it fit your definition of plausibility.

 

Sure anything can be done in real life, I can mount a pu scope on a m1911 if I chose to.

 

However a pu scope for an sks was never standard military issue as far as I believe.

[Katana67 2907]

Sure anything can be done in real life, I can mount a pu scope on a m1911 if I chose to.

 

However a pu scope for an sks was never standard military issue as far as I believe.

 

Nor are Magpul parts for the M4 standard issue, the majority of the parts on the M1911 as rendered in DayZ aren't standard issue, same with the FNX attachments. Moreover, why does something need to be "standard issue" to be realistic for you?

 

And my issue was with your misuse of "realism" when something is just less likely.

[Katana67 2907]

I'll just say that I believe nobody suggests that dispersion need to be taken out from weapons. We just want more realistic level dispersion and let other mechanics like weapon sway and kick and even a wind to simulate the inaccuracy just like in real life. Being a 12 year old doesn't suddenly make the gun spread bullets like crazy compared to 32 year old military guy.

There are better ways to simulate inaccuracy than huge weapon dispersion. Weapon dispersion increase depending in the condition of the bullets, attachments and gun and even depending on what weapon attachments you've is fine for me. The dispersion change should be minimal if you attach bayonet on M4 for example. The sway and how quickly or well you can react in tigh space should be the main effects.

 

My approach is that weapon dispersion should be on par with the real-world properties of the weapon. Let the players muck up their shots. Mind you, this isn't a "because it's realistic" suggestion. I just want my personal accuracy to be represented properly.

[gibonez 3633]

Nor are Magpul parts for the M4 standard issue, the majority of the parts on the M1911 as rendered in DayZ aren't standard issue, same with the FNX attachments. Moreover, why does something need to be "standard issue" to be realistic for you?

 

And my issue was with your misuse of "realism" when something is just less likely.

 

Because standard issue usually means widely issued and thus far more likely to be encountered.

 

Finding specialized mounts for a mosin and an sks to mount optics that would otherwise be impossible to mount just does not make sense to me.

[weedmasta 784]

I understand that perhaps they want to simulate a regular civilians inaccuracy with a weapon but the random dispersion is not the way.

Why not use real life things to simulate that?

Such as

_ simulate trigger pull by adding a slight delay of 0.5 seconds or less before a gun fires after clicking the mouse. This would simulate trigger travel and different weapons could have different rates. Hunting rifles with crisp triggers shorter delays bullpups with bad triggers longer ones.

_ simulate arm fatigue by making the longer you hold a gun in aim mode increase the amount of sway unless your weapon is rested or bipod deployed on a surface.

Different stances have different arm fatigue.

These two ideas would accomplish the same thing that dispersion tries to without punishing a players skill.

All we want is real life accuracy for the weapons and weapon parts to be purely cosmetic or affect the handling.

 

That first idea would be just plain stupid, you have mentioned this delay before and it is just a terrible idea, just like the random dispersion, there are better ways; add to that possible lag/desync and you'll be in hell, it'd make it just as random as random dispersion, which defeats the purpose of what you want accomplished.

The second idea is good however.

[Katana67 2907]

Because standard issue usually means widely issued and thus far more likely to be encountered.

 

Finding specialized mounts for a mosin and an sks to mount optics that would otherwise be impossible to mount just does not make sense to me.

 

So it's not realism then, it's real-world likelihood that dictates whether you think something is plausible in DayZ. Which makes zero sense to me, because by that logic, we'd only be using vanilla weapons (AR-15s included). And every modification (1913 compatible attachments included) would be implausible, simply because one's less likely than the other.

 

There's nothing more specialized about a railed mount for a Mosin than a PU mount, they're both designed (i.e. specialized) to go on the Mosin. In fact, most PU scopes/mounts these days are aftermarket anyhow. Finding an original PU scope and mount is getting harder. The PU mount fits on both the Mosin and SKS with a similar amount of modification (both the Mosin and SKS require modification to the stock to install the PU mount). 

Edited May 12, 2014 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

That first idea would be just plain stupid, you have mentioned this delay before and it is just a terrible idea, just like the random dispersion, there are better ways; add to that possible lag/desync and you'll be in hell, it'd make it just as random as random dispersion, which defeats the purpose of what you want accomplished.

The second idea is good however.

 

It was just a simple idea on ways to simulate real player inaccuracy yet at the same time leaving the shooting up to player skill.

 

Simulating trigger pull wouldnt be that bad the slight delay could easily be accounted for with practice. Not only that it would force some real life shooting fundementals into the game. Force people to maintain proper sight picture and target all the way from pushing the mouse button until the weapon completes its firing cycle.

[bodizapha 2]

Anybody?

One of the major issues I have that is preventing me from playing right now is the random dispersal of shots seen with every weapon in game. It irritates me to no end that I can NOT establish an accurate grouping with my shots. I really hope that they at least PLAN to fix that, but if they don't at some point, I seriously doubt I will ever be able to bring myself to play this game with any frequency.

When (in IRL) I shoulder a rifle for the first time, having never fired THAT rifle before, and not having the sights (be they iron or scope) already adjusted to my eyes and method of holding the weapon, I may not be able to hit the "bullseye", but I WILL have a tight grouping somewhere on the target, which I can then use to adjust the sights to move that grouping to the center of the target. In the military, we call this "Battle Sight Zeroing", or BZO for short (most of you are probably already aware of that, but this is for those that aren't).

This is because even though the sights are not yet properly aligned to MY eyesight and weapon handling, the rifle itself will, baring any defects or maintenance issues or really bad ammunition, nearly ALWAYS fire the projectile in the same manner and angle if I take the time to take well aimed shots. I.E. If the weapon is fired once, and the bullet hits a particular spot, firing the weapon again from the EXACT same angle and position will put the second bullet through the first shot hole, or if not, VERY close to it (creating a wider hole, an effect known as a "keyhole"). Other factors, including air pressure, windage, and even humidity can cause deviation, especially at extreme ranges, but at ranges from 100 to 500 meters, the effect tends to be very slight, and in the case of wind, easily compensated for.

Randomizing the shot groupings detracts from actual skillful shooting, and is insulting to the players; including those that understand the fundamentals of marksmanship, those that desire a more "hardcore" realistic experience, as well as those the more casual types. By keeping it this way, you remove the actual challenge of taking a well placed shot, and make a successful one based purely on luck. If I hit my target 300 meters away with a Mosin, it isn't because I took a good shot. Its because I centered my crosshairs on the target and clicked the button and got lucky that THIS TIME the bullet hit where I thought I was aiming.

Many might argue that our characters aren't crack military troops with years of training. You might be right. But you might be wrong. Where does it specifically SAY that EVERY new spawn doesn't have some marksmanship experience at SOME point in his or her life?

The way I see it, if the player knows how to shoot a weapon accurately, then so does his character. If the player doesn't, then his character doesn't, and must therefore learn by doing (which is EXACTLY what people in this situation WOULD be doing realistically), which would enhance the overall experience for them. Nothing should be handed to anyone. Knowledge should be earned, either by personal experience, or through research, or by experimentation.

Christ, I came here to ask about any news about realistic ballistics, and ended up going on a rant....sorry.

I agree with you 110%, but will they add the coriolis effect? With shots taken from extream distances? I doubt they would , but it would be really intresting if they did.....and mill dots would be a welcom sight too.....just a thought thanks

 

[-Gews- 7443]

I agree with you 110%, but will they add the coriolis effect? With shots taken from extream distances?

No they won't.

7.62x51mm M80

Drop

400m = 142.1 cm

800m = 813.6 cm

Wind drift (10 mph 90 deg)

400m = 47.4 cm drift

800m = 243.6 cm drift

Coriolis (firing due East)

400m = -1.2 cm drift / -1.0 cm drop

800m = -5.7 cm drift / -4.7 cm drop

Makes very little difference. It would change the impact by about ¼ of a human head in vertical axis and ⅓ in the horizontal... at 800 meters. Waste of development time.

At Rezzed they said "Ballistics affected by weather" is on the "roadmap". I doubt they're talking about things like temperature, altitude, pressure and humidity. I just hope they get the physics of wind drift correct and have all projectiles follow the same rules.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Gews

[gibonez 3633]

No they won't.

7.62x51mm M80

Drop

400m = 142.1 cm

800m = 813.6 cm

Wind drift (10 mph 90 deg)

400m = 47.4 cm drift

800m = 243.6 cm drift

Coriolis (firing due East)

400m = -1.2 cm drift / -1.0 cm drop

800m = -5.7 cm drift / -4.7 cm drop

Makes very little difference. It would change the impact by about ¼ of a human head in vertical axis and ⅓ in the horizontal... at 800 meters. Waste of development time.

At Rezzed they said "Ballistics affected by weather" is on the "roadmap". I doubt they're talking about things like temperature, altitude, pressure and humidity. I just hope they get the physics of wind drift correct and have all projectiles follow the same rules.

 

By same rules do you mean that all bullets are equally affected by wind ?

 

Wouldn't this hurt the realism and would essentially put a standard 55 grain 5.56 nato round on par if not ahead of a 168 g .308 round ?

 

Each bullet type should be affected by wind differently lighter bullets with worse ballistic coefficients should be affected by the wind more but at the same time it should be something consistent that the player can account for with some simple math.

[KingOfTime 267]

Isn't DayZ supposed to take place 5 years after the zombocalypse? If I am correct on that, then almost all of the guns should be in crap condition, unless they were stored in a moisture free environment all that time, and most should have significant dispersion a la S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Maybe not to that extreme, where hitting the broad side of a barn at 30m is pure luck, but almost none of the weapons would be in any suitable condition for making shots at long range. Especially since most of the weapons, I imagine, were used during the containment phase of the infection, and have been sitting, after firing, with no cleaning in fluctuating weather conditions for years on end. Finding a weapon to make shots at 400-500m should be like stumbling upon an oasis in a desert. I imagine most of the AK variants would be rusted shut, and have to have the bolt bashed open to even be operational. In the unlikely event you found a pristine weapon, I am totally in favour of authentic dispersion, but I think some concessions must be made to accommodate the majority of the firearms that should be found in game, as I dont think it's reasonable to have the dev team ruin dozens of weapons through neglect just to get authentic dispersion rates for neglected weapons. Thoughts?

[-Gews- 7443]

By same rules do you mean that all bullets are equally affected by wind ?

Nope I mean all bullets should follow the rules of physics.

I don't want them to say "hmm, let's give this round less wind drift to balance things out".

All bullets should have wind drift proportional to their lag time. Giving each bullet a different "wind drift coefficient" is unnecessary and would allow the devs (or modders) to give projectiles unrealistic and impossible properties.

It would be like having different gravitational pulls for each bullet. Right now gravity affects all bullets in the same way, as it should. Wind should affect all bullets in the same manner.

[Element47 2481]

[sorry - here's another long and boring "but", from a friendly boring person]

 

~snip~

 

xx pilgrim

great input, well put, not boring in the least. i'm totally with you on this.

[gibonez 3633]

Maybe the reason the shooting is such ass in dayz is because they are waiting for arma 3 to release their arma 3 marksmen DLC.

 

 http://www.bistudio.com/english/company/developers-blog/460-arma-3-roadmap-201415

 

 

Arma 3 Marksmen

A focused overhaul of shooting mechanics together with new weapons, the central goal of this development is to make firing a weapon simple to do but challenging to master. Due after the Helicopters DLC, we don't want to be too specific just yet; however, to achieve our goal, a set of interrelated features are planned, which aim to further improve the authenticity of firing weapons and offer new gameplay opportunities.

In terms of content, new weapons that take most advantage of these planned features will be included; chiefly, this will involve ranged and high calibre weapons. We're selecting armaments that offer genuine diversity; not just many of the same type of weapon with minor visual differences, but a true range that offers distinctive gameplay alongside some inherent advantages/disadvantages. Again, our objective is to improve the A3 platform more broadly; new features and mechanics are designed with existing assets in mind, enhancing the sandbox as a whole.

 

 

I am pretty excited for that it could potentially mean different weapons actually having different characteristics and behaviors in arma 3.

 

A 5.56 round will not behave the same way when shooting at 1000 yards compared to a .308 yet in game they are essentially the same.

 

Wind will kick around the lighter 55 grain 5.56 round making it reach out to 1000 yards but be way off target depending on the wind strength and direction.

 

Meanwhile the slower .308 round is much heavier so wind is not a problem but the slower .308 takes longer to reach 1000 yards and it flies there in more of an arc.

 

Edited May 14, 2014 by gibonez

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

If you watch any of my Shooting range vids, the majority of misses I make are down to my fault and less to dispersion, I too find the current dispersion in DAYZ too much.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/orlok1960

 

BUT

 

Its early days (no pun intended) and I expect all the weapons to be majorly tweaked once ingame although at a later stage.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[ColdHeat 59]

Anything that makes this game more realistic and challenging is welcome to me.

[weedmasta 784]

It was just a simple idea on ways to simulate real player inaccuracy yet at the same time leaving the shooting up to player skill.

 

Simulating trigger pull wouldnt be that bad the slight delay could easily be accounted for with practice. Not only that it would force some real life shooting fundementals into the game. Force people to maintain proper sight picture and target all the way from pushing the mouse button until the weapon completes its firing cycle.

 

All that would simulate is lag. You can simulate some things with delays, such as eating for example or switching weapons. There is already a delay between acquiring a target and firing at it in-game (not to* mention the information being sent back and forth between clients and server), I don't see how adding a further delay would simulate inaccuracy in anyway, in fact it would just be an annoyance. You can never fully simulate firing in real life unless you have the technology to simulate the same physical conditions as when firing a real weapon. You can't just put in whatever you want for the sake of "realism" and throw gameplay fluency out of the window. Am I the only one to think this is a terrible suggestion? Am I missing something?

Edited May 15, 2014 by weedmasta

[gibonez 3633]

All that would simulate is lag. You can simulate some things with delays, such as eating for example or switching weapons. There is already a delay between acquiring a target and firing at it in-game (not the mention the information being sent back and forth between clients and server), I don't see how adding a further delay would simulate inaccuracy in anyway, in fact it would just be an annoyance. You can never fully simulate firing in real life unless you have the technology to simulate the same physical conditions as when firing a real weapon. You can't just put in whatever you want for the sake of "realism" and throw gameplay fluency out of the window. Am I the only one to think this is a terrible suggestion? Am I missing something?

 

I can agree to some of your points.

 

However what I was trying to say even though with all of the negatives you listed simulating trigger pull would still be better for players than randomly dispersing the rounds of the gun how its done now.

 

Atleast with trigger pull you could compensate using experience and skill meanwhile with the dispersion method no such thing can be done its all luck.