Incapacitation/ Kinectic knockdown discussion

[eskamick 20]

He was a medic who helped patch up one of the guys who shot him after his unit tracked them down and gave a few of them a lead bodywash. If I can find it I'll try to post the picture of the giant bruise on his chest from the plate.

[gibonez 3633]

gibonez crosspost to reddit, bravo go.

 

I would but I am too lazy :(

[gibonez 3633]

Ok I crossposted it to reddit upvote if you want.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/24ev18/discussion_proof_of_concept_gun_shot/

[Katana67 2907]

I think this'd need to be combined with internal organ simulation.

[gibonez 3633]

I think this'd need to be combined with internal organ simulation.

 

Absolutely that would in my mind be the end game once they get the chest, pelvis, neck, head and limb hit boxes all squared away they can break down those hitboxes into more detailed ones to represent a persons organs and each would have different effects on players.

 

Heart shot with any caliber or weapon = profuse bleeding that will probably end up in death

Neck shot = profuse bleeding

Lung = heavy bleeding and slower speed and shortness of breath

Kidney = bleeding + animation showing you favor that side of the body

 

Etc.

[-Gews- 7443]

I agree this kind of thing is needed, the current system sucks when people can absorb bullets with little or no apparent effects, sprint away to safety and even keep firing back with great accuracy. More wounding effects would improve the game and realism. This would also be better than those little dots of blood which tell players their shots have hit.

 

However I wouldn't call it "kinetic" because none of the bullets has enough force to actually knock someone over. It's the person's response, nervous system, psychological, etc, which causes them to fall. Which also would be hard to take into account ie if they were shot while all full of adrenaline or sniped while having a picnic, etc.

 

I also wouldn't like to see something where 9mm rounds are shrugged off while the .45 flattens people, or the same with 5.56 vs 7.62.

[gibonez 3633]

I agree this kind of thing is needed, the current system sucks when people can absorb bullets with little or no apparent effects, sprint away to safety and even keep firing back with great accuracy. More wounding effects would improve the game and realism. This would also be better than those little dots of blood which tell players their shots have hit.

 

However I wouldn't call it "kinetic" because none of the bullets has enough force to actually knock someone over. It's the person's response, nervous system, psychological, etc, which causes them to fall. Which also would be hard to take into account ie if they were shot while all full of adrenaline or sniped while having a picnic, etc.

 

I also wouldn't like to see something where 9mm rounds are shrugged off while the .45 flattens people, or the same with 5.56 vs 7.62.

 

 

I think more than the caliber it should be about shot placement, the caliber alone should determine the bleed rate along with the shot placement.

 

The folks over a reddit are not really clicking on the thread I think the word incapaciate is intimidating them they usually just prever to upvote stupid pictures of pointless shit.

[Jex 1104]

That could be pretty amazing.

 

Zombie rushes you , you shoot it in the chest it falls but continues to crawl on its stomach trying to bite your legs.

 

Yes I think all of us here pretty much want zeds to be cut in half and still crawl after us. We want the zombie apocalypse experience from the films, including chainsaws! 

[gibonez 3633]

Yes I think all of us here pretty much want zeds to be cut in half and still crawl after us. We want the zombie apocalypse experience from the films, including chainsaws! 

 

Chain saws are already confirmed.

 

Since the zombies are just people infected one would think a half cut up zombie wouldnt be able to crawl but then again who is to say their pain tolerance is not insane due to the virus.

[gemellus 77]

I really like this

[gibonez 3633]

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/24ev18/discussion_proof_of_concept_gun_shot/

 

reddit thread finally died down 276 upvotes and nearly every single comment was supportive.

 

Guess people do want this.

[AshleyP 121]

What this discussion board needs is more gifs of people being shot. Let's talk head wounds next. I've got a folder of gifs of people getting shot in the head - the chap with the RPG from Iraq, you've all seen that one - and then we can move on to helicopter chain gun rounds vs soft squishy human flesh. This board would really benefit from that.

[cuddly_rabbit 102]

I am for realism.

However, I have to ask: What does it add except more details of death?

In real life, you can hope to be helicopter-rushed to a hospital and saved.

But in DayZ?

It makes no difference whether you are incapacitated or dead.
A shot to the belly? Dead.
A shot to the chest? Dead

Pretty much every hit that is not a graze means death in the conditions of the DayZ world.

 

I am not sure whether the sincere and unavoidable act of dying needs to be prolonged.
The depiction of the will to stay alive is realistic, but in a world in which there is no chance... I don't know whether it adds a lot.

 

Honestly, I prefer my character to be dead and silent after a good hit. 
I would not want him screaming his head off and dying over the next 2-5 minutes.
Have you ever heard the screams of badly hurt people? Fuck my life, I do not want a realistic depiction of that in a game after having experienced it in RL.

Edited May 4, 2014 by cuddly_rabbit

[cuddly_rabbit 102]

Absolutely that would in my mind be the end game once they get the chest, pelvis, neck, head and limb hit boxes all squared away they can break down those hitboxes into more detailed ones to represent a persons organs and each would have different effects on players.

 

Heart shot with any caliber or weapon = profuse bleeding that will probably end up in death

Neck shot = profuse bleeding

Lung = heavy bleeding and slower speed and shortness of breath

Kidney = bleeding + animation showing you favor that side of the body

 

Etc.

Sorry to say, but this is silly.

You do NOT survive any of these hits.

Not without a MedEvac and an emergency hospital waiting for you.

We do not have these in DayZ.

So... that kind of "you hit my liver, I can drink less alcohol now!" logic is silly. 

A hit to the lung kills you. You do not suffer from "shortness of breath", or... you might, but it does not matter if you do not arrive in hospital fast.

But in DayZ you won't.

Might as well just cut that corner straight to the black screen. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by cuddly_rabbit

[liquidsnake 275]

Sorry to say, but this is silly.

You do NOT survive any of these hits.

Not without a MedEvac and an emergency hospital waiting for you.

We do not have these in DayZ.

So... that kind of "you hit my liver, I can drink less alcohol now!" logic is silly. 

A hit to the lung kills you. You do not suffer from "shortness of breath", or... you might, but it does not matter if you do not arrive in hospital fast.

But in DayZ you won't.

Might as well just cut that corner straight to the black screen. 

It's the heavy bleeding he mentions which causes death. I'd say it's a bit too extreme to die of internal bleeding from pretty much any torso shot. It takes some of the fun away, IMO. But on the other hand, no consequences from those shots are also a bit too soft. I think this is a nice middle ground

[minime1000 78]

Would like to have it but in this engine with these animations it would be slow and clunky.

[blaf 63]

+1 this is a good suggestion...

 

Yes please. Large calibres should knock people to the ground, not knock them out (all the time) or magically kill them instantly (except for headshots). Even a makarov shot to the chest should always knock the player down, nobody keeps standing while enduring the pain of a punctured lung, let alone a shot to the heart. A shot to a vital organ like the heart should knock the player down and probably knock him out with death following to simulate bleeding out. A shot to the general torso area and head should always knock down. A shot to the arm/leg should only cause bleeding. 
Not sure about this one, though, should 9x19/9x18 knock an armoured player to the ground? My initial guess is no. 

I dont know what caliber this is, but:

[taco86 156]

Not sure about this one, though, should 9x19/9x18 knock an armoured player to the ground? My initial guess is no. 

It really depends on the type of armor the target is wearing...  Soft lvl 2-3a kevlar will defeat the round, however there will still be rather significant KE transfer resulting in sever bruising and in certain cases broken ribs...  Hard lvl 3a kevlar however will easily defeat many many rounds fired at point blank with very minimal impact to the wearer...  Once you get into rifle plates, like lvl3 ar500 steel, lvl3 steel/titanium, or lvl 4 ceramics, the lack of effect on target becomes even more exaggerated...

 

I'm sure some of you have seen this video before, but if a picture is worth a thousand words, this video must be worth a million...  Enjoy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI01qKAqYts

[gibonez 3633]

It's the heavy bleeding he mentions which causes death. I'd say it's a bit too extreme to die of internal bleeding from pretty much any torso shot. It takes some of the fun away, IMO. But on the other hand, no consequences from those shots are also a bit too soft. I think this is a nice middle ground

I wouldn't mind a system where each body region has a minimal amount of bleeding associated with it.

So say you are low blood and take a heart shot even if you bandage you will not survive the 4k blood you would lose regardless of bandaging or not

[rickyspanish 158]

Would like to have it but in this engine with these animations it would be slow and clunky.

 

What about when/if ragdolls implemented though, did you watch the linked arma 3 vids? It doesn't look slow and clunky to me and Id much prefer it over a spot of red stuff followed by the guy running away after 5 shots.

Love the idea, its perfect imo. And if they could do organ hit boxes it would add so much to the health system along with permanent effects from injuries maybe.  

[blaf 63]

What about when/if ragdolls implemented though, did you watch the linked arma 3 vids? It doesn't look slow and clunky to me and Id much prefer it over a spot of red stuff followed by the guy running away after 5 shots.

Love the idea, its perfect imo. And if they could do organ hit boxes it would add so much to the health system along with permanent effects from injuries maybe.  

Indeed, now we only need some dev to come here and tell us if its possible to do :)

[VatiXerid 13]

In case of game design this may lead  even more towards KOS. Because it is much easier to kill players with that kind of simulation and 

players will use this.

 

Unarmed players will have nearly zero chance to escape if they were hit once and any armed guy will be even more of a threat.

 

With adding the skeleton and the physics which comes with that, a lot of possibilities get available like Pushing, grabbing holding pulling, draging players and knockdown effect from melee attacks and so on.

The question is what can be forced on players and what action needs to be consensual. And Physics must actually work with the environment. No pushing players through solid walls....

 

I think it is easy for the devs to add such a knockdown animation to test this out and how gameplay changes with that.

If something is fun to play or not is really hard to predict or create.

 

[gibonez 3633]

+1 this is a good suggestion...

 

I dont know what caliber this is, but:

 

That is a tiny .25 auto or a .380.

 

Imagine he got shot with a +p+ .45 acp round.

 

He would have a few broken ribs and some internal bleeding.

[blaf 63]

That is a tiny .25 auto or a .380.

 

Imagine he got shot with a +p+ .45 acp round.

 

He would have a few broken ribs and some internal bleeding.

Sure (eventhough effect of 9x18 might not be as much different from .380), but once we start considering trauma plates it might get more complicated :)

[SGT. Kalme 106]

Small caliber bullet won't knock you down by its kinetic energy when it penetrates. The knock-back is apparent when the bullet hits ballisic protecion such as ceramic plate that stops bullet instantly. From short range, even 7.62 will rather penetrate the body that knock person down.

I agree that realistic system for that should be added.