Why does the cross bow do more damage than the m4?

[ForceRecon (DayZ) 10]

I didn't read through all the pages but the crossbow was not an instant kill in the stomach for me. I was healthy and someone ran up and fired it at me. Destroyed my tactical shirt and everything in it (Which doesn't make much sense) but I survived with very very low health and blood (Wasn't even bleeding after shot). As soon as the guy saw that I didn't die he ran off. Couldn't find him sadly. But the fact of the matter is the crossbow should be an instant kill from the waist up for balance because that thing has a ridiculously long reload time and has only one bolt chambered whereas the M4 can have 60 bullets and a fast as hell fire rate.

[Fuerii 26]

 

 

 But the fact of the matter is the crossbow should be an instant kill from the waist up for balance because that thing has a ridiculously long reload time

Balance of 'individual weapons surrounding damage, reload, etc should not be a concern in a game committed to realistic simulation. If something is slow, then it is slow. If it is powerful enough to kill in one hit, then so be it. If not, okay. The crossbow being slow is a reason for the user to replace it as soon as possible with a firearm, It is not a reason for the developers to increase its damage.

 

The only balancing I want to see surrounding weapons should be based on availability. If something is going to be the last gun you ever need, then it should be very rare. I don't want to see everyone running around with m107's for example. I have faith that this will not come to pass. :)

Edited April 27, 2014 by Fuerii

[ForceRecon (DayZ) 10]

Balance of 'individual weapons surrounding damage, reload, etc should not be a concern in a game committed to realistic simulation.

 

If this game was a full realistic simulation, no one would play it. In reality, I can survive up to three days without water and 10 without food. In reality falling off a set of stairs would not severely injure my leg. And in Reality a bolt or arrow would do more damage than a bullet as bullets go through a person while bolts and arrows stick inside create bigger wounds and those wounds are more susceptible to disease. The game needs to be realistic to a point but if it were a simulator where you needed 8 hours of gameplay sleep and other things than no one would play it. It is a game not a zombie apocalypse training simulator for the real world.

[aseliot 23]

If this game was a full realistic simulation, no one would play it. In reality, I can survive up to three days without water and 10 without food. In reality falling off a set of stairs would not severely injure my leg. And in Reality a bolt or arrow would do more damage than a bullet as bullets go through a person while bolts and arrows stick inside create bigger wounds and those wounds are more susceptible to disease. The game needs to be realistic to a point but if it were a simulator where you needed 8 hours of gameplay sleep and other things than no one would play it. It is a game not a zombie apocalypse training simulator for the real world.

 

Indeed in reality some people fall of a stairs and die and other fall 40 meters from a building and survive.

 

Killing someone with a crossbow bolt should be slower than a bullet but in reality the arrow would also impair your movement a lot more than a bullet would in first instance (if it passes through) and a bullet would cause a lot more bleeding i guess. 

 

I really hope they plan to make people fall over or something when shot in the leg and drop their weapon when shot in the shoulder or arm, things like that. And arrows should be removed before you can do anything else.

[Fuerii 26]

 

 

If this game was a full realistic simulation, no one would play it

I hear what you are saying and agree up to a point. At some point complete realism becomes detrimental. That being said, I do not think a weapon's slow rate of fire should have anything to do with its damage. That was my main point really. I do not want to see a sleep requirement either. :P

 

 

 

And in Reality a bolt or arrow would do more damage than a bullet as bullets go through a person while bolts and arrows stick inside create bigger wounds and those wounds

This would be where Taco should step in and reiterate some of his ballistics knowledge. :P My understanding is limited but I believe that in most cases of center mass impacts from 5.56 and 7.62 the bullet would not pass through and through. After initially entering the body the bullet begins to yaw, or tumble, and quickly dump all of its kinetic energy. This is why the wound path of a bullet is not always predictable. And because there is vastly more kinetic energy behind a bullet the damage will always be magnitudes greater. 

 

If I am wrong about that, someone feel free to correct me. I'm trying to brush up on terminal ballistics in the real world.

 

The only thing a crossbow fired bolt, or bow fired arrow has going for it is the large wound created by the broad tip arrowhead. This can sometimes cause lethal bleeding in the near future after impact. I would never consider that to be causing "more damage", though. 

Edited April 27, 2014 by Fuerii

[gibonez 3633]

If this game was a full realistic simulation, no one would play it. In reality, I can survive up to three days without water and 10 without food. In reality falling off a set of stairs would not severely injure my leg. And in Reality a bolt or arrow would do more damage than a bullet as bullets go through a person while bolts and arrows stick inside create bigger wounds and those wounds are more susceptible to disease. The game needs to be realistic to a point but if it were a simulator where you needed 8 hours of gameplay sleep and other things than no one would play it. It is a game not a zombie apocalypse training simulator for the real world.

 

Cmon dude absolutely people would play it.

 

The whole reason people even bother playing dayz over other zombie games is the realism and the mil sim aspects of it.

 

without realism this game would just be any other boring zombie game.

 

Realism and mil sim aspects is what makes dayz different.

[Fuerii 26]

I don't know, Gib, I understand what he's saying. At some point you do have to draw the line. I'll reiterate the sleep example because that's the best one I can think of at the moment. I fully endorse DayZ going for the most realistic game possible while still being a fun game. Requiring sleep would undermine the experience, I think. 

 

That being said I really can't think of another example of "too realistic". So maybe that is the only example and I killed my own point. :P

[korpisoturi (DayZ) 127]

Crossbow's reload is fucked up right now. Also it takes the main weapon slot, really?

[gibonez 3633]

I don't know, Gib, I understand what he's saying. At some point you do have to draw the line. I'll reiterate the sleep example because that's the best one I can think of at the moment. I fully endorse DayZ going for the most realistic game possible while still being a fun game. Requiring sleep would undermine the experience, I think. 

 

That being said I really can't think of another example of "too realistic". So maybe that is the only example and I killed my own point. :P

I completely agree that some elements would make no sense even though they are realistic.

 

Sleep is one of them atleast sleep in a sense that your character would sleep while you are logged in.

 

Sleep would work if it mirrors rust.

 

when you log off your character sleeps this makes your character always vulnerable and puts more importance to not only base building and barricading yourself but also to remote regions and encourages exploration.

 

If they made 1 character per server + added rust's sleep mechanic I promise you nobody will be in cherno or berenzino.

 

Everyone would be in the north surviving then making their way back home before they log off.

 

The game would not be a boring pvp fest but a unique survival game.

[Fuerii 26]

I'm not familiar with Rust mechanics. I'll have to check it out

[tenshu 43]

Arrows could do more damage in a lot of situations, especially with the armour in the game.

Kevlar based & bulletproof armour doesn't protect from large area projectiles like arrows so Vs an m4 it would do more damage.

[eskamick 20]

5.56 zips right through kevlar. So do arrows. Kevlar has problems stopping pointy things or small fast things. Ceramic plates laugh off 5.56 but they do the same to most calibers under .30

Steel plates stop most calibers and would shrug off arrows. 55gr 5.56 zips through it like butter though.

 

As far as the wound mechanics of a bolt vs a bullet. That's been covered ad nauseam. Bolt's don't do as much damage as any high caliber rifle. I could go on and on about permanent crush cavities/temp crush cavities, Internal hemorrhaging, immediate stops from shock etc... but the bottom line is arrows aren't great stopper's.

[gibonez 3633]

5.56 zips right through kevlar. So do arrows. Kevlar has problems stopping pointy things or small fast things. Ceramic plates laugh off 5.56 but they do the same to most calibers under .30

Steel plates stop most calibers and would shrug off arrows. 55gr 5.56 zips through it like butter though.

 

As far as the wound mechanics of a bolt vs a bullet. That's been covered ad nauseam. Bolt's don't do as much damage as any high caliber rifle. I could go on and on about permanent crush cavities/temp crush cavities, Internal hemorrhaging, immediate stops from shock etc... but the bottom line is arrows aren't great stopper's.

 

Bolts do about as much damage as some pistol hollow points correct ?

 

Or am I giving bolts a little too much credit ?

[eskamick 20]

Different damage. Hollow points expand and cause crush cavities. Most arrows and bolts cause death through internal hemorrhaging. Small explosion on your insides vs being cut up on your insides. Both suck and both probably "Kill" in the same amount of time. Causing system shock through large amounts of "damage" internally in an instant making your target stop whatever the hell they are doing immediately is the point of hollow points and high velocity rifle bullets. There's a lot more to it than that but dats da basics.

[ispecter 55]

In real life your right .556 round would do more damage period. This is a game, get over it.

[gibonez 3633]

In real life your right .556 round would do more damage period. This is a game, get over it.

 

It's a sim.

 

But everything is fine now the devs said they are nerfing the crossbow.

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

Probably so the crossbow is still a good weapon in relevancy towards other weapons.. Its clip size and reload speed alone put it at a massive disadvantage in combat so it would be pointless to even use it if it wasn't a little bit buffed..

 

 

P.s. Getting hit by a 556 round or an arrow, will fuck you up regardless of which one it was.

[Fuerii 26]

Probably so the crossbow is still a good weapon in relevancy towards other weapons.. Its clip size and reload speed alone put it at a massive disadvantage in combat so it would be pointless to even use it if it wasn't a little bit buffed..

 

 

 

If a crossbow is used over a firearm its because the crossbow is a quiet zombie killer.

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

If a crossbow is used over a firearm its because the crossbow is a quiet zombie killer.

Okay, but now what happens when the silencers start working on guns? There would be no reason to use a crossbow if it didnt hold a respective level of PvP power.

[-Gews- 7443]

Okay, but now what happens when the silencers start working on guns? There would be no reason to use a crossbow if it didnt hold a respective level of PvP power.

 

The game is supposed to be realistic, nobody serious about PvP is going to dump their suppressed M4 for a crossbow. Suppressors and ammunition should be rare but if you find that stuff you're not going to use a crossbow instead. Some things are just better.

[Misseen 21]

Please learn physics.

 

J = M*V²

[-Gews- 7443]

J = M*V²

 

*ahem*

 

kinetic energy = ½ mv²

[taco86 156]

5.56 zips right through kevlar. So do arrows. Kevlar has problems stopping pointy things or small fast things. Ceramic plates laugh off 5.56 but they do the same to most calibers under .30

Steel plates stop most calibers and would shrug off arrows. 55gr 5.56 zips through it like butter though.

 

Well, arrows/bolts will zip through soft kevlar...  But the plate/hard kevlar, and stab resistant kevlars will be nearly unaffected by them.  The amount of KE an arrow or bolt has is also extremely low in terms of projectiles these armors are designed to defeat meaning that trauma behind the plate or stab resistant soft kevlar would be extremely minimal...  We're talking energy lvls about 1/10th that of a typical heavy weight boxer or mma fighter's punch, 100ft/lbs vs 1000 ft/lbs.  Everything else you've stated here is generally correct though, minus the 55gr m193 vs steel armor.  Most lvl3 ar500 steel armor today will defeat very large numbers of these rounds even as a standalone.  If you put some frag protection on that ar500 plate and place it into a kevlar carrier...  You get the idea, m193 55gr are not going to be punching holes in modern ones at point blank, let alone normal combat ranges...  They certainly were capable of punching through the steel plate armor used during the late 80s and early 90s though, so that point has some merit.

Edited April 28, 2014 by taco86

[Wayze 549]

Let's get something cleared out:

If you get shot by any weapon in the torso, you are very likely to just fall down and not be able to move at all. Even if you are pumped with adrenalin, one single shot can take down the biggest bastard you've ever seen. He will just fall down like a sack. He may be able to talk, but not to move. Why that happens is not quite known yet. But it's probably a reaction of the brain to the devastating damage which was inflicted to the body.

That said, there are also cases in which people take more than 3 shots and still run like maniacs. Some say it's based on psychology, other say it's neurological. We just don't know.

 

Here is a video of a homeless guy that got recently shot by the police. This is how someone who got shot will most likely look like. I highly advise NOT to watch that video if you are a sensitive person.

 

So this guy took some shots. Physically he was probably able to run around. But he couldn't. His body has shut down almost every function besides the vital ones, but he is not unconsciouss immediatly.

This is not only about physics, but also very much about biology/psychology.

 

The thing about bullets is, that they cause a way bigger secondary damage than a bolt does. The kinetic energy of the bullet is transferred directly into the targets body, causing devastating damage. It's not the bullet that is lethal, it's the shockwave caused by the impact that damages vital organs.

The same with explosion. When you see an explosion going off, it's not the fireball that kills you, it's the shockwave that crushes every single bone in your body if you are in a certain radius.

 

A bolt can definitly be as lethal as a bullet, but the stopping power is not even close to the one of a high caliber projectile. Most bolts just go through a target. But there are also heavy bolts that stay in target, causing a similar impact as a bullet. A bolt can take down a guy the same as a bullet can, but I guess it's not as likely, which is why crossbows are not as common as rifles for hunters.

Obviously crossbows are used because they are very silent. Even some special forces use them. But they don't have regular crossbows from hunting shops. They have high end crossbows, probably specialised for the situation.

You can have a M4 with a suppressor and it will still give out your location. It's still really loud. You need special ammuntion that does not break the sonic barrier. Even then the weapons will be clearly heard in close/medium ranges combat.

 

But from a gameplay perspective, I think crossbows should be not as lethal as rifles. They are more common and have the advantage of absolute silence. A headshot should kill immediatly and a torse shot should have a chance of putting the target to the ground for a while.

But I also think that there should be a high chance of fall down (going unconscious) if you are shot by any weapon. So I guess it's just my taste

Edited April 28, 2014 by Wayze

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

The game is supposed to be realistic, nobody serious about PvP is going to dump their suppressed M4 for a crossbow. Suppressors and ammunition should be rare but if you find that stuff you're not going to use a crossbow instead. Some things are just better.

Valid point.  That was just my theory on why they might do up the crossbow to a somewhat unrealistic degree.  IRL silencers are still quite loud as most people dont really realize so it WOULD still benefit a *little* to choose a crossbow over M4..but not really lol.

 

But resorting to what I said up there. A bullet or arrow, will fuck you up :P