Why does the cross bow do more damage than the m4?

[akafugitive 244]

Ballistics is a wonky science but it seems to work.

That pretty much covers it right there. It's in not 1 or 2 factors or circumstances, everything has its advantage and disadvantage. Energy transfer is the thing most people here seem to be focused on, if that is not the factor the projectile primarily used to be effective, then when scored against something that does it will seem to be at a disadvantage. Hell the human body and how it works or reacts, like discussed above on adrenaline, plays a large factor aswell.

If I looked at a fork and said it does not have the same ability to hold liquid as a spoon, so it is a worse eating utensil that would just be incorrect.

This is why we use:

Theory - to get an educated guess

Field review - to add to or dispel the educated guess theory provides, based on what has really happened

and range tests - to reproduce what has happend and understand why

They will never be able to model this in game accurately, only try to have the end result replicate what may or may not be seen more likely in a situation. Hell even in reality there are alway new people figuring out how to stretch the limits of what was previously thought not to be possible.

Aside from adding incapacitation effects that just knock you off balance or to the ground, without preventing you from recovering quickly if left alone, they have done a pretty good job I'd say. Yes I would like to see the crossbow move away from the 1 shot kill to the 1 shot incapacitate(mostly or fully) because I want casualty recovery to be 90% possible in most situations.

Sometime the simplest thing is; if you don't know why it acts the way is acts, but know it does act that way, then you already have the information to make yourself more effective when you apply that knowledge to your tactical approach.

Games like COD 4 didn't make much sense to me how I could use a handgun to kill all the snipers from across the map at their effective range, but I knew I could, so I did. They refused to adapt and left themselves at a disadvantage because the poor game mechanics did not focus on trying to give natural balance making every gun pretty much the same in different housings.

I don't like games like battlefield or call if duty, not because I'm not good at them, but because I find them too simple. They only really require one factor; hit your target. I've gone through matches in games like that with k/d Ratios Like 123-0 because when the mechanics are simple so is the battle strategy. When I can choke you into not leaving your spawn, because my 1-2 shot kill with anything will never leave even a group able to push through, then once I put you at a disadvantage it can become nearly impossible to swing the battle in the other way. Standard FPS games have a tendency to reward 1 person not a team effort being able to make the difference.

I came to BIS games because their design on natural balance, while not perfect, is way better then what else is out there.

Edited April 23, 2014 by akafugitive

[Judopunch 523]

It's about energy dude, and the capacity for the projectile to dump that energy...  While an arrow or a bolt certainly is more efficient in terms of lethality per unit of energy, a cross bow bolt is still childs play compared to a 5.56 or really an HV rifle...  As for "Speed not being everything" in terms of most modern military rounds, it really is...  Projectiles are not indestructible and will yaw and disintegrate when hitting seemingly soft things when moving at such great velocities.  The result is that the surface area of the projectile  Rapidly increases resulting in massive and rapid energy dump...  This is what causes such nasty permanent and temorary wound cavities when compared to lower velocity handgun rounds.

 

Btw, the  .500 magnum is the "most powerfull PRODUCTION" handgun in the world because it fires a 400gr projectile at over 1,800 ft/s, resulting in close to 3,000 ft/lbs of energy...  In comparison, a .44 magnum (a very powerfull handgun) produces less than half of that with most loads...  It's powerfull because of a combination of mass and velocity

 

 

Take a look at what happens to ballistic gel when hit by high velocity rifle fire...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYPxiRldaE

Dear god that is cool

[fluxley 2228]

From the change log under Known Issues:

 

• Crossbow damage higher than desired

[gibonez 3633]

 

From the change log under Known Issues:

 

• Crossbow damage higher than desired

 

 

 

Yay forums opinion in action ?

[akafugitive 244]

In the end my core wish list is:

Weapons have higher incapacitating effects/chances but very few instant kill effects

Natural balances - small fast piercing weapons will do less instant trama but have a high chance to cause bleeding, large heavy weapons are slow but cause a lot of trama and risk breaking bones and knocking down your opponent, ect.

Zombies more 1:1 with player in terms of damage recieved but slightly more resilient to pain - in melee their behavior is pretty good, they can take a few hits and well placed ones will knock them over but they will get back up. They are instantly killed way too easy with firearms

Better carry methods for equipment - I'm not a huge fan of the magnetic shoulder blades and want to be able to have choices when fully geared like; slinging my bow over my shoulder for hunting, strapping my axe to my backpack for gathering firewood, while still retaining my carbine/smg/ect. forward slung(without having to drop it constantly) and sidearm holstered for self defence, without loosing all my inventory space needed for carrying survival supplies/clothing, ammo, mags, and other miscellaneous tools/trade goods. Hell even being able to move things like the binoculars out of your inventory by hanging them from your neck or getting handcuff cases, handgun mag pouches, knife sheaths to get some of that stuff on your belt instead would be favorable.

Medical carry methods significantly improved - currently the space you get for medical supplies is OK, but once we start really needing to use medications and such, medics will be at a massive disadvantage by having almost their entire inventory filled with just medical supplies to aid the group.

Weight system associated with above carry methods - more/heavier gear = more weight. Being heavy will fatigue you faster, burn energy requiring more food/water, slow you down, increase chances to collapse, increase damage from falling and reduce maneuverability.

Sprinting not unlimited but does not force the player to walk - if you push yourself too hard you will still be able to keep going but risk collapsing, allowing the threat to catch up(conserve your energy)

Edited April 23, 2014 by akafugitive

[gibonez 3633]

Weapons have higher incapacitating effects/chances but very few instant kill effects

 

 

 

I want this so bad.

 

I want a 5.56 to the chest to incapacitate a player for a short time but not outright kill him. death would come from bleeding and or more shots to the body and head.

 

Nothing was more satisfying in the mod than shooting someone with the m24 seeing their body pass out and then finishing them off with a headshot as they layed passed out.

[Valadain 270]

I want this so bad.

 

I want a 5.56 to the chest to incapacitate a player for a short time but not outright kill him. death would come from bleeding and or more shots to the body and head.

 

Nothing was more satisfying in the mod than shooting someone with the m24 seeing their body pass out and then finishing them off with a headshot as they layed passed out.

 

With a robust medical system, I think incapacitating and debilitating wounds are the way to go, however, they need to work out a decent way to "bail" on a character with no hope of survival. Or have a rather brief transition to death (not twenty minutes of laying unconscious). Either that, or a decent recovery system with consequences (your broken bone mends enough to walk, but maybe certain actions cause your shock level to rise, like jumping or sprinting).

[gibonez 3633]

With a robust medical system, I think incapacitating and debilitating wounds are the way to go, however, they need to work out a decent way to "bail" on a character with no hope of survival. Or have a rather brief transition to death (not twenty minutes of laying unconscious). Either that, or a decent recovery system with consequences (your broken bone mends enough to walk, but maybe certain actions cause your shock level to rise, like jumping or sprinting).

 

I would imagine having a fatal gunshot wound would lead to death in a few minutes no ? If you are at the point of incapacitation death would probably come quickly.

[stryker007 39]

Because its bad-ass.... does noone here watch the walking dead???

[Valadain 270]

I would imagine having a fatal gunshot wound would lead to death in a few minutes no ? If you are at the point of incapacitation death would probably come quickly.

 

I agree, I only bring it up as it has been a little dicey in the past, with long bouts of unconscious and thousand-mile prone travels. 

[akafugitive 244]

With a robust medical system, I think incapacitating and debilitating wounds are the way to go, however, they need to work out a decent way to "bail" on a character with no hope of survival. Or have a rather brief transition to death (not twenty minutes of laying unconscious). Either that, or a decent recovery system with consequences (your broken bone mends enough to walk, but maybe certain actions cause your shock level to rise, like jumping or sprinting).

You can still hit respawn if you don't feel like waiting, they should not speed the lethality of an injury unless that wound is lethal enough to kill you that fast. Someone who has a mostly stable injury but recieved high concussion should be allowed to wait 20 min if they want to wait for recovery/aid, they just need a decent way of displaying this to the player. I think my white light suggestion would work as a great replacement to the mods timer.

I still want splinting to act as a stabilizer that will allow for a slightly better range of motion while recovering, and pain meds would act as a temp relief of the effects.

If you could harvest branches from pretty much any tree then broken limbs would not make you want to hit the respawn button, because it wouldn't take an hour of crawling around to find branches that would at least let you hobble around for awhile till you recover.

I've covered a ton of this stuff, in a lot more detail, in my suggestion threads. You guys should check them out and comment/vote

Edited April 23, 2014 by akafugitive

[Crazy_Spider 235]

Stopping power...crap I hate that phrase.

 

The wounding mechanics of an arrow or bolt is based on bleeding. Deer usually don't just drop with a solid hit with an arrow or bolt. They do however die within a few minutes(depending on shot placement of course) You are more likely to get an immediate stop<---- with a rifle. Also a rifle will cause a larger wound channel than an arrow due to velocity.

   True, true. I was explaining that an arrow does a lot of damage, even though some of my statements may have been wrong. I know a gun like a magnum will cause more of a stop than an arrow. I know that arrows have more of a problem after being shot due to the arrowhead. You can't pull it out, so you are more likely to open/infect your wound when you push the arrow out/have it removed.

[Crazy_Spider 235]

Pretty much everything you've stated is comparatively wrong...  I'm not trying to be mean, but an arrow or bolt has no where near the stopping power of the vast majority of fire arms, most specifically HV rifles...  So yes, in terms of both KE transfer, and wound channels, an arrow or xbow is certainly "childs play" when directly compared to rifles.

 

  "A bullet will just pass through you if it is powerfull enough" this quote shows me that you simply do not have an understanding of terminal ballistics...  Generally the faster a rifle round is moving, the faster it will dump energy when it hits animal tissue...  This has been explained in detail within the thread, please go back and read the specifics if you're having trouble understanding.

 

P.S. A 7.62x51mm m80 round has roughly 30x more energy than your typical hunting xbow....  like so...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGYF8DTLcj4

     Yes, I know. I have a problem with my posts sometimes because I always go on the forums quite late at night. That particular night I was just getting back from baseball practice and I was tired as hell. Honestly, though, an xbow can have just as much lethality as a gun if it hits the correct places. You're gonna bleed for day(z) (hehe...) and lose tons of blood, possibly losing conciousness. Also, a bullet is MORE LIKELY to pass through you than an arrow. A bullet could leave shards inside you though, I believe? I also know 100% that any type of gun has more energy than any arrow on the planet. It's obvious. There is a reason we don't use xbows in wars today. I'm just saying, I agree with what you're saying and my statement was mostly incorrect.

[Valadain 270]

     Yes, I know. I have a problem with my posts sometimes because I always go on the forums quite late at night. That particular night I was just getting back from baseball practice and I was tired as hell. Honestly, though, an xbow can have just as much lethality as a gun if it hits the correct places. You're gonna bleed for day(z) (hehe...) and lose tons of blood, possibly losing conciousness. Also, a bullet is MORE LIKELY to pass through you than an arrow. A bullet could leave shards inside you though, I believe? I also know 100% that any type of gun has more energy than any arrow on the planet. It's obvious. There is a reason we don't use xbows in wars today. I'm just saying, I agree with what you're saying and my statement was mostly incorrect.

 

It is actually a pretty common misconception with guns and bullets. There are some bullets designed to stay intact passing through things, but not the ones you use to shoot people. Bullets designed for people, don't tend to go through and when they do, it can be pretty bad. Bullets designed for people may have a relatively small entrance wound, but tend to have a pretty nasty and large exit wound. Arrows do pass through people too (you need to keep in mind that the head of the arrow is the bullet equivalent, the shaft is really just for leverage and stability). The major difference is that an arrow exits the same as it enters, while a bullet exits with a much larger diameter than when it enters. Either as a smashed chunk of lead or nebula of shrapnel.

[akafugitive 244]

It is actually a pretty common misconception with guns and bullets. There are some bullets designed to stay intact passing through things, but not the ones you use to shoot people. Bullets designed for people, don't tend to go through and when they do, it can be pretty bad. Bullets designed for people may have a relatively small entrance wound, but tend to have a pretty nasty and large exit wound. Arrows do pass through people too (you need to keep in mind that the head of the arrow is the bullet equivalent, the shaft is really just for leverage and stability). The major difference is that an arrow exits the same as it enters, while a bullet exits with a much larger diameter than when it enters. Either as a smashed chunk of lead or nebula of shrapnel.

Even in older war mentality, when firearms were coming into their prime, bullets used for people had a design to wound rather then kill. Wounding effectively slows the advance of the enemy while they deal with a casualty. That mentality worked for force on force combat but not force on insergent/guerilla/extreamists, since they just ignored the casualty anyways or got up and ran away.

The 5.56 was specifically designed to put down and kill quickly, with rapid, accurate fire, and because the explosive fragmentation causes massive internal rupturing giving the casualty a much shorter window of opportunity to be treated without dieing anyways(this theory is the same idea that made bows so effective, crossbows were later designed to punch through a knights tempered steel armor at range.)

Remember modern hunting bows/crossbows are derived from war machines, and enhanced by modern science.

Guys like Gews probably know more about exact velocity numbers, trajectories, etc. I just know a lot about the design, effect and why we use them on other people.

Edited April 24, 2014 by akafugitive

[akafugitive 244]

That 2-3 shot statistic is usually on enemy combatants right ones that are hopped up on drugs and or adrenaline ?

Would you guess that an unsuspecting sober person would get knocked out and incapacitated from a single 5.56 to the chest or gut ?

I wanted to revisit this again because I was thinking how it would be possible in the game, and how would it change your perceived connection to your character.

I think it is possible, because a non perceived threat is more of a threat. This would add more of a connection to your character, because when you personally are switched on to a situation in game, currently it doesn't change the effects, and as you said, it should.

I think the "in combat" effect should make a comeback. This could be triggered by raising a weapon, receiving damage, hearing gunshots/supersonic cracks, etc. When triggered it would last for x amount of time and could be retriggered, like the mod. This could be displayed to the player by a sudden screen flash, vision draws in slightly and peripheral vision becomes blurred.

How it could add the effect of threat perception is; While triggered bleeding effects and knock down chances are lowered, as well as restricting the ability to log out. If someone combat logs while active through other means then just have the character remain in game till the "in combat" timer runs out.

The other side of this means, that while being shot/injured while not "in combat" has a much higher chance to knock you down, it does not mean you will necessarily stay down for long, shot placement will matter. If a shot is poorly placed or not followed up on, allowing you to regain footing, you will be responding to them while "in combat", they will be "in combat" though also.

Edited April 24, 2014 by akafugitive

[taco86 156]

Much of the 2-3 shot issue comes from very thin targets, at ranges that exceed effective fragmentation.  Another issue is that if the round passes through the relatively empty space of the lungs it may also not tumble and frag properly.  In these situations you will probably have a through and through wound with a permanent cavity about as thick as the broad side of the bullet, this would pretty much be the ideal situation if you were shot center mass by a 5.56 and is completely survivable given immediate medical attention.  If a person is thicker, or has kevlar or some light gear on them they are going to get smoked, especially by the m855 and even more so the m855a1.  The projectile will deform, fragment, and dump the majority of it's energy before exiting the other side, this situation would most likely be lethal, even if highly trained medical personal are present.  The m193 is the 55gr projectile with probably the most lethal fragmentation available for 5.56 against unprotected tissue...  These are just as much "poison" bullets as the soviet 5.45x39mm...  If you're hit by one of these and it frags inside of you, you're certainly dead unless extensive surgery is available or even possible...  Many times the surgery required to save someones life would certainly be lethal, these people commonly known as the "walking dead" are usually patched up, and simply made comfortable till they pass.

 

Overall I think this thread has gotten a little bit away from what I intended, which is certainly a result of myself derailing as much as others.  What i'd like to see for the xbow is for it to consistently knock out a target with 1 (most likely 2 if healthy) bolts, with a third killing...  Arrows and bolts should also be almost completely useless against the anti stab vest, ballistic plates (once they are added), and hard lvl IIIa kevlar (mitch kpot ballistic helmet).  Given this, I have no issue with the m4a1 retaining it's current damage so long as an 18 or 20 inch barrel ar15 derivative is available with slightly more stopping power *cough* mk12spr *cough*.

Edited April 24, 2014 by taco86

[akafugitive 244]

Much of the 2-3 shot issue comes from very thin targets, at ranges that exceed effective fragmentation.  Another issue is that if the round passes through the relatively empty space of the lungs it may also not tumble and frag properly.  In these situations you will probably have a through and through wound with a permanent cavity about as thick as the broad side of the bullet, this would pretty much be the ideal situation if you were shot center mass by a 5.56 and is completely survivable given immediate medical attention.  If a person is thicker, or has kevlar or some light gear on them they are going to get smoked, especially by the m855 and even more so the m855a1.  The projectile will deform, fragment, and dump the majority of it's energy before exiting the other side, this situation would most likely be lethal, even if highly trained medical personal are present.  The m193 is the 55gr projectile with probably the most lethal fragmentation available for 5.56 against unprotected tissue...  These are just as much "poison" bullets as the soviet 5.45x39mm...  If you're hit by one of these and it frags inside of you, you're certainly dead unless extensive surgery is available or even possible...  Many times the surgery required to save someones life would certainly be lethal, these people commonly known as the "walking dead" are usually patched up, and simply made comfortable till they pass.

 

Overall I think this thread has gotten a little bit away from what I intended, which is certainly a result of myself derailing as much as others.  What i'd like to see for the xbow is for it to consistently knock out a target with 1 (most likely 2 if healthy) bolts, with a third killing...  Arrows and bolts should also be almost completely useless against the anti stab vest, ballistic plates (once they are added), and hard lvl IIIa kevlar (mitch kpot ballistic helmet).  Given this, I have no issue with the m4a1 retaining it's current damage so long as an 18 or 20 inch barrel ar15 derivative is available with slightly more stopping power *cough* mk12spr *cough*.

I think the conversation has moved into a more factual approach then it started off with.

I'm with you on wanting to see some variant of the mk12spr. I own a stoner MOD 0 with a steel receiver and swear by it.

[Deathlove 2286]

To be honest i was looking forward to trying out the new bow but they have no arrows available for it yet....... WUT? xD

[makomachine 263]

Any discussion of energy comparisons shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how projectile weapons, such as a crossbow, kill. Firearms largely kill by shock and energy damage. Crossbows kill by hemorrhage via a broadhead. Energy, other than initial penetration has ZERO to do with it.

That said, any modern broadhead hitting in the chest cavity of a human is lethal in the apocalypse. Lung, heart, liver, any major artery and you are done. M4 shot to the chest is much the same...

[minime1000 78]

Dont' claim to be a Navy SEAL. If you were on the teams you wouldn't claim it here. Thats really disrespectful to the guys out there in harms way.

I was being sarcastic because "appeal to authority" and it doesn't matter that they put themselves in harms way.

 

I am a navy seal btw.

[Fuerii 26]

I've read several of Taco's posts in the last month or so. I have yet to see anyone match his level of knowledge and understanding of ballistics. I wouldn't bother questioning him on something like this. /shrug

[minime1000 78]

You expect bullets to do more damage than arrows in a video game. Pretty simple. DayZ f'd it up. My brother who is in the CIA SAD confirms this.

Edited April 27, 2014 by myshl0ng

[Whyherro123 2283]

-snip-

See, the thing is.....we don't believe you. And we won't, unless you give us concrete data saying otherwise (Service records, erc, which you couldn't)

I can say my dick is 12 inches long flaccid, just because I say it is doesn't make it so.

 

[naraga 45]

Stabbing causes a much more pain inducing large-cavity wound that is much slower and more damaging than a bullet. I would rather be shot than stabbed myself.

Don't worry you won't feel sh!t the first 5 minutes or so anyway when that adrealine is rushing.