FoV abuse, scatter when snapshoting, on-screen dot and zoom issues

[FrostDragon 4]

Hi.

I am posting here on behalf of myself, ReasonX and people who agreed to us.

I don't know english in perfect, so please be forgiving for some mistakes!

 

Few definitions before we start, to make sure all understand what I am talking about:

RMB - right mouse button.

FOV - Field of View - in-game and .cfg option defining your in-game angle of view.

Iron sight, snapshot - position when you press right mouse button once and use iron sight of your weapon to shoot.

RMB zoom - position when you have pressed RMB and hold it, so the image on your screen zoomed.

min. FOV - FOV in-game option set to minimum.

normal FOV - FOV in-game option set to default.

 

1. In-game FOV option have to be disabled.

critical

This is huge problem right now. And it aggravates other problems i've described here.

As all know, it is possible to change your FOV not only in .cfg, but also in-game within few seconds. This gives huge, unfair and totally unrealistic advantages to people who use it. I'll describe here why.

 

When you RMB zoom with normal FOV it gives you about x3,22 zoom right now. On pictures below you can see what part of the screen is zoomed in when you hold RMB.

1 is normal view, 2 is RMB zoomed view.

My horisontal resolution is 1920 pixels, so 1920/596=3.22.

 

When you set FOV option to minimum it gives you x2,22 zoom.

1 is normal view, 2 is FOV-set-to minimum view.

1920/864=2,22

 

If you use FOV plus RMB zoom it will give you this:

1 is normal view with normal FOV setting, 2 is view with FOV set to minimum and RMB zoom applied.

1920/269=7,13. Some selfcheck: 2,22x3,22=7,14.

 

Here is zoomed picture:

 

So it is x7,13 zoom! You can see on the pictures how small is that part of the screen that is zoomed.

While i am ok with RMB-zoom and it's corellation to realism (i'll describe my point of view at section 4)... THIS? This is bullshit. It would make sense in sci-fi game when you play with electronic eyes but i don't want to see it in DayZ. 

 

Also, at big distances, there is no grass, and having such huge zoom with no binoculars or other optic device makes detection of other players too easy and unrealistic. It is legal cheat.

 

On the basis of the above we suggest to delete FOV option from in-game menu, so you have to change it in the .cfg. Nobody would play with a very low FoV in .cfg because it had too many disadvantages. However it needs to be able to be changed in .cfg, some people have different monitor setups and must change it. Sniper with small FOV will be extremely vulnerable to flanking, also to change FOV they will need to log out. (partially copied from Gews post).

 

Why this need to be done ASAP? Many people play right now and suffer from it (include me). Also it aggravates other problems. I don't think it need's a lot of man-hours to delete or disable one single option at in-game menu.

 

2. Aiming without iron sight should have increased scatter.

critical

When you aim with your weapon with just RMB zoom it has the same accuracy as when you aim with iron sight. We think it is totally unfair and unrealistic.

Aiming without iron sight is mostly like firing from your hip (snapshoting). And it should be less accurate then shooting with iron sight.

Also, aiming with just RMB zoom don't limit you FOV with part of your weapon covering the screen. While scatter is not increased it gives you tons of advantages and is too Counter Strike-like. Realism? Bullshit!

 

Moreover, while first problem with FOV is not fixed, it makes most of aim modules almost useless, because they covers part of your screen. M4 with ACOG and FOV option set to minimum makes it sniper rifle. I don't agree, but OK. Well, what if you do not have ACOG? Here is solution! Just do not use your iron sight. Hold RMB, set FOV to min and.. yay! you still have sniper rifle with no optics on it... While you have the same accuracy while snapshoting and iron sight, this not worth to be played.

 

Sadly i don't have ACOG right now to make some pictures, but i know it should give you about x4 magnification, so it almost similar to RMB zoom. With FoV set to min (x2,22 zoom), you have 4x2,22=8,88 zoom with ACOG. It is 7,13 without ACOG - not such a big difference actually and no covering of your screen with ACOG textures. If ACOG gives less then 3,22 then... just throw it away, because it will give you less magnification then simple zoom-in with RMB.

 

Our suggestions: introduce increased scatter for snapshotiong (firing without iron sight) with all weapons.

 

Update 03/11 12:55 AM.:

Found out through discussion and checked in-game:

Crossair (dot) in game is not accurately centered, different weapons has different positions relative to the dot. But while this position are fixed, players will fastly get used to it. Probably it makes scatter problem less critical but it for sure need some polish.

 

3. Remove on-screen dot from hardcore.

critical while 1&2 are not fixed

While first and second problems are active, this is big problem. Hardcore supposed to be as realistic as possible. And while you can be sniping with no optics set on your weapon this has nothing common to realism.

Also, when problems with FOV and scatter would be fixed, dot will not be such big issue anymore. Me personally will not have any cases against dot in this case. But some people don't like it on hardcore at all.

 

Our suggestions: remove on-screen dot from hardcore, at least while problem 2 is not fixed.

 

4. Zoom.

Also some work should be done for zooming. Gews described it very well at his post here http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/165710-the-campaign-for-iron-sight-zoom. Please read it.

 

Me personally like to think of "zoom" option when you use iron sight as when you close your second eye and aim just with one eye. It makes sense and it's totally OK with realism. In-real life closing one eye limits your FOV like to 60% from normal. But eye have non-limited resolution, so you can't just put shade on 40% of your screen and say: "Look! It simulates one-eye vision!" - that would be totally unrealistic, because your monitor has resolution and it is not high comparing to your eye.

For those who think that zoom is unrealistic - think of it as of focus of you eye on distant object. It limits you FOV in-real life. So why it should not do same in-game?

 

So having zoomed in (when you press RMB) and zoomed out (as default) positions for aiming with iron sight is similar to aiming with one eye opened and with two eyes opened respectively. In my opinion this should be done for all weapons, including PU scopes and red dots. That should look great. When you press RMB once, you start iron sight with your weapon with no zoom (zoomed out position with just normal FOV). Then, if hold RMB you zoom in and see more precise what's going on in front of you.

 

With all respect to Gews, i think this four problems are very interrelated and need complex solution. Thats why i have mentioned zoom in my post. If all this will be done, we will have really nice and realistic shooting in game.

 

Сonclusion.

I believe that devs works on this problems and have plans how it should be done. But, as i said, many people play right now and this problems (maybe except the second one) don't need a lot of work to fix. Also if you delete on-screen dot for now while you working on scatter, it would be ok with problem two for a while.

 

Please, discuss.

Edited March 11, 2014 by FrostDragon

[bobotype3334 160]

Yeah OP it is a long-term problem but I agree it probably needs fixing

[ra91111 52]

I think the fov is completely fare it simulates focusing with your eyes cuz on the screen it's just pixels . the lowered fov is like tunnel vision you get so focused on a target that you can easily fail to see something happens around you, the opposite goes with increased fov . That's all , I can agree with everything else

[enforcer1975 1111]

I think the fov is completely fare it simulates focusing with your eyes cuz on the screen it's just pixels.

 

 

What? Are you srs? Like i have hubble vision IRL...you see plenty even when you don't zoom out and even more when you use rmb zoom and imo it's unfair to players who have magnification devices...set your resolution higher or see a doctor. That's what i loved about PR:ArmA because they removed this option, either you had a scope/binocs and could see what was far away or you didn't. Even the slight zoom when going for the iron sights/aimpoint was gone.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Enforcer

[FrostDragon 4]

the lowered fov is like tunnel vision you get so focused on a target that you can easily fail to see something happens around you, the opposite goes with increased fov .

 

You already have "focus" when you look at distance with rmb zoom. Game don't need additional focus via FoV correction. All other is said already. Do not want to repeat it.

[srgntpepper 85]

a normal persons FOV is about 180 degrees, the normal setting for first person shooters is about 90 degrees.  Dean said he wanted to keep 3rd and first person an option because the FOV is cut in half, whereas realistically your FOV should be double that.  That being said, they need to fix the zoom and being able to see over walls and around corners from 3rd person.  I don't think there should be increased scatter from snapshot, shooting your gun from the hip while NOT moving maybe be on point, but moving scatters the on-screen dot, so snapshotting and moving at the same time are hard enough and if a person hits someone while in that mode while using a semi automatic, they just made a lucky shot.  Shooting someone at very short range with an m4 feels right so far.  Thats the only situation i could see you having a problem with as far as snapshots go.  Basically, im saying its not important to make snapshot have increased scatter.  I also dont think it really matters to take aim dot away in hardcore.  I never use it anyways.  I do agree, zoom needs work

Edited March 10, 2014 by srgnt.pepper

[tommes 331]

They should've kept it as in the mod or Arma with the zoom.

[rickenbacker 190]

While I think you should have some drawback when using the dot rather than iron sights, "scatter" is not the way to go. The games current "cone of fire" mechanic to simulate operator error is really, really broken and results in joke weapons like an M4 that can't hit a human-sized target from 10m, or a shotgun with a spread the size of Texas at normal effective ranges. 

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

You dare limit my FOV to something other then 110 and I will hunt you down irl.

[FrostDragon 4]

 

They should've kept it as in the mod or Arma with the zoom.

Agree. Also, in Arma there is no FOV slider in game menu.

 

You dare limit my FOV to something other then 110 and I will hunt you down irl.

 

I don't suggest to limit your FOV. I suggest to limit ability you can change it fast, in-game. If it is in .cfg, you can set whatever you feel comfortable to play with. Also the default FOV can be changed in background when you change resolution. If you like to play with 1.1 it's ok. The problem is that some players sit with extremely low FOV setting (0.5) and see miles away what happening. And when they need to move it is just one moment - press ESC, move slider and you have 1.1 again. Don't think that it all because i was killed so many times so i've started to complain - that's not true. I never died is SA to that reason yet. But i see the problem.

Edited March 10, 2014 by FrostDragon

[FrostDragon 4]

People still voting against removing FOV option but i don't see any reasoned opinion to have it. Can you, please, explain to me why you think it should be in-game?

Edited March 10, 2014 by FrostDragon

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

1.
Let us just have it all the realistc and same field of view.

2.
No, the position you see is a high ready position, so the weapon is not on the hip, so there is the same stability as you were aiming through the sights.

3.
let us remove the dot for at least hardcore settings. with the exception of the hands.
so you can use the dot to get to some tricky stuff, when you dont have a weapon in your
hands.

Edited March 10, 2014 by kOepi

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

So that you can easily set your FOV.. they only need to fix the zoom issues. If you only have it in the .cfg, you make it unassecable to normal players who may get sick from low FOV...

[FrostDragon 4]

So that you can easily set your FOV.. they only need to fix the zoom issues. If you only have it in the .cfg, you make it unassecable to normal players who may get sick from low FOV...

 

That's the problem of devs to manage comfortable default FOV for all resolutions and aspect ratios of monitors. And if you not ok with it - do some research on google. When i have downloaded DayZ SA there was not a problem to find a guide with proper settings to optimise FPS. Actually there are lots of them. I don't think that person who is not comfortable with something not able to google it out.

 

Don't you see that having FOV option in game menu used by most of the players as exploit. It MULTIPLIES magnification of any zoom you have by 2.22. Talking about simple rmb zoom or any king of scopes. Got some kind of x3,5 scope? Nice! Just few clicks and it converts to x7.77 scope. It ruins mechanics of the game...

 

About zoom:

In fact, the right mouse button zoom represents the 1:1 size. Due to the fact that a regular pc screen doesn't have the same view angle as your eyes, the regular view in game is actually zoomed out. So usually you have wide FOV but zoomed out, when focussing on a target you get realistic zoom with reduced FOV.

 

It's always helpful to know how the game engine works.

Refer to http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/176198-hardcore-shouldnt-zoom-not-exist/

Edited March 10, 2014 by FrostDragon

[quantum2k6 348]

if they remove the dot they have to rework the lootsystem a bit for hc.

 

its sometimes very tricky to pick up an item from the ground or from a higher level just with this little point!

[SFRGaming 718]

I liked everythign except for the scatter. You do realize, like in real life, the guns in DayZ don't lose accuracy when you're hip firing? The round from the gun travels within a certain dispersion according to where the barrel is pointing. Realistic and shouldn't be changed. The problem is you want it so it would be like battlefield or CoD. The way they handle it is if you're aiming down sight, your dispersion is 0.05, if you're not aiming down sight, your dispersion is 0.6. You can see the significant difference. DayZ does not need to obtain this. Now, I do agree with significantly more weapon sway (as that's what CoD and BF are trying to simulate) at the hip causing your accuracy to be off.

 

For a visual representation:

Here's how DayZ handles round accuracy and dispersion

Notice the guy does not have the weapon shouldered but the rounds still follow the angle of the barrel.

 

And here's how CoD and BF handle it.

Notice how the player does not have the weapon shouldered but the round still follow the direction the character is looking, causing the rounds to exit at a far greater angle than the barrel.

 

 

 

On the FoV point:

I think they should make you enter your screen resolution in DayZ whenever you start it up for the first time, and what ever you put as your resolution, it sets your FoV accordingly

Ex.(I enter in 1920x1080, the game sets my FoV to 90)

 

As for the zoom:

Keep it in for right now, but take the ability out when the binoculars are added. They stated on twitter it has been made, just needed to be config'd. I know I'm gonna get a lot of hate for this but the zoom is a bit OP and non-human. IRL you can focus your eyes but it doesn't allow you to see 100-200m farther. SO, I say keep it in since we have no binoculars. Once they are added, take the player zoom out. Or just take it from hardcore servers :)

Edited March 10, 2014 by Shadow134

[blackberrygoo 1416]

FOV has NEVER been a problem for me , to me people who use this as a reason why they can't "survive" just doesn't work for me...

I play FOV up AND down depending on how I'm feeling : if I don't feel like zooming I keep my FOV low in the settings so I don't always have to right click , if I feel more observant I will keep FOV settin high in the settings .

Hardcore dot ? C'mon guys don't be so unimaginative if you don't like the little tiny white dot , just don't pay attention to it , it will most likely be an option to remove it later down the road , but it certainly is not "critical" .

I know a lot of us are trying to help the progress of dayz but we have to realize taking away the simple stuff like FOV option , crosshairs (as small as they are already) and the zoom dayz is used to , it changes it in ways that we can or cannot predict . Dayz is already a very observation heavy game and don't get me wrong i HATE a casual gaming experience, but I believe this would just annoy people and FORCE them to play a specific way (whereas in real life some people have great vision and are always "zooming" in further than the rest , and some have such short visoon which would represent the players with high FOV...life isn't fair dayz shouldn't be either haha ).

Sure fov can be abused but so can third person view so should we totally remove that ? Some say yes but for the sake of REAL realism lets say that doing this would effectively remove (or at least Piss off / annoy ) a good 25% of the dayz population .

Note : I play only first person severs , I LOVE the white dot crosshair , and I use different FOVs depending on my mood , so please people I know you're trying to be proactive but sometime this is too much. Lets just ask eachother out of respect to know, that if you use lots of FOV and can see more of your hands , make note that you won't be able to zoom as far , and know if you have very little FOV (can't see your hands) then please know that you better be watching your back if you really think that 7 times zoom is worth it . And one last thing , no offense but I have never concluded that someone won a battle because they could "zoom in more than me because of low FOV" .

Besides when real sniper rifles binoculars and scopes come out this zoom issue won't be a problem seein as we wil have X 15 zoom and such .

Edit : the human eyes can see millions of light years away into space , but on earth we can see a maximum of 2 miles or more , so when you say the zoom is inhuman , you're only half right . No we can't "zoom" in two miles but we can focus on objects of up to about a mile away , so this zoom feature makes sense , and don't forget people you WILL realize if zoom is removed that the game will become much harder, so count your blessings for how it is now cuz it's not that bad .

Edited March 10, 2014 by Grapefruit kush

[FrostDragon 4]

Try to think about zoom in this way. When you zoomed in, it is your normal 1:1 vision, like you see in real life, just with limited angle of view lets say to 90 degrees. But for comfortable gaming it is not enough. IRL you have peripheral vision and your normal angle of view is somewhat close to 180 degrees. How can you simulate this? I doubt you can play comfortable with 180 FOV setting. That's how game engine operates. It has zoomed out view (your normal in-game view without RMB being hold).

Look at the picture below:

 

 

a - angle of view of game. For red and blue lines it is the same and is regulated via FOV setting of the game.

1- position of your head IRL and position of camera when you zoom in. 2 - position of camera when zoomed out.

Blue line shows your norma IRL vision, red line simulates situation when you focus yous eyes on distant object.

Red line show what you see while zoomed in. And blue line show what you see while zoomed out. Angle is the same. The only diference is position of camera. I may be mistaken but i am pretty sure game camera works this way.

 

So when you zoomed out it covers all 100% of you IRL FOV. When you zoomed in it covers only a degrees of your IRL FOV but it do NOT gives you ZOOM. It is 1:1. Game gives you peripheral vision when zoomed out. Still not refer to real life? Thats why deleting zoom from the game pointless. And agree to Grapefruit kush, game will become much much harder without it.

Yes, probably it need some regulation but it is just ok like it is now.

 

While I think you should have some drawback when using the dot rather than iron sights, "scatter" is not the way to go. The games current "cone of fire" mechanic to simulate operator error is really, really broken and results in joke weapons like an M4 that can't hit a human-sized target from 10m, or a shotgun with a spread the size of Texas at normal effective ranges. 

2.
No, the position you see is a high ready position, so the weapon is not on the hip, so there is the same stability as you were aiming through the sights.

 

Partially agree. You weapon is in high ready position, but you do not look at iron sight, thats why you only can suppose where is your weapon pointed actually.

Maybe solution is to change dot crosshair to circle (as i remember it was in mod) and fix that broken "cone of fire" mechanic. I believe it is where devs are heading to. Just need some time.

Edited March 10, 2014 by FrostDragon

[FrostDragon 4]

Besides when real sniper rifles binoculars and scopes come out this zoom issue won't be a problem seein as we wil have X 15 zoom and such.

 

And with FOV set to minimum at gives you x33,3 scope.

 

Hardcore dot ? C'mon guys don't be so unimaginative if you don't like the little tiny white dot , just don't pay attention to it , it will most likely be an option to remove it later down the road , but it certainly is not "critical" .

 

It is critical while you can fire with x7.13 zoom at it with no scatter.

 

All this problems are so close. Fixing one makes another less critical. And vise versa.

Edited March 10, 2014 by FrostDragon

[Sutinen 635]

Press numpad + twice and you're abusing FOV. People who "FOV abuse" are just wasting their time by not pressing + twice.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Sutinen

[FrostDragon 4]

Press numpad + twice and you're abusing FOV. People who "FOV abuse" are just wasting their time by not pressing + twice.

 

It is similar to holding rmb as i remember? If so, why not to do both?)

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

@frost dragon
 

 

"Partially agree. You weapon is in high ready position, but you do not look at iron sight, thats why you only can suppose where is your weapon pointed actually.

Maybe solution is to change dot crosshair to circle (as i remember it was in mod) and fix that broken "cone of fire" mechanic. I believe it is where devs are heading to. Just need some time."

- your point 2 is about scattering in the conclusion, not about accuracy, of c
ourse you cannot know where you point your weapon exactly at, but
the recoil should be the same, because it is the same stance you are in when shooting through the sights.

so, less accuracy when not looking through the sights and same scattering in both aiming perspectives.

[FrostDragon 4]

Ok, now i got trapped in definitions. As i told, english is not my native and this theme is new to me to speak on it. My apologies for misrepresentation.

 

If scattering is just weapon characteristic, and accuracy is how accurate shooter is, then, of course, i've meant less accuracy when not looking though the sights. But when we talk about game this two definitions overlaps each other. Less accuracy leads to bigger scattering of your hits. You cannot actually aim with your weapon without looking though sigth. I don't know for sure how accuracy interrelated with scattering in game and how it all realised. As i think it is some kind of "cone of fire" mechanics that simulates both scatter of weapon and accuracy of shooter at the same time. If i am not right, please correct me.

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

The simple fix to the FOV problem is to fix the zoom so it is the same for all weapons / zoom. Then players can easily go with their preference.

[Zer0HD2 (DayZ) 40]

People still voting against removing FOV option but i don't see any reasoned opinion to have it. Can you, please, explain to me why you think it should be in-game?

 

I think people are misunderstanding "in-game". They need to remove the option to change the FoV fast like you can right now (as has been said multiple times above), but still keep the option to change it, as some people can't play under a certain FoV without getting physically sick.