Why is hardcore so underpopulated?

[louist 163]

I don't see the smaller HC playerbase as bad thing. HC is a filter that keeps the majority of kids and casual shitters out of the HC experience. HC has it's own assholes and clowns but at least the playing field is even.

Despite the small change, Normal and HC are very different. The entire pace of the game is slower because players have to be more cautious of the environment and surroundings since they can no longer magically see over every object. This lack of information or fog of war that 1PP creates completely changes the pace. Players have to look around and listen for that awareness.

PvP and the behaviour of players changes drastically between the two since the combat is actually balanced in 1PP. Stealth and flanking also a viable option in HC, something that rarely works in normal because of the unnaturally increased spacial awareness 3PP gives the player.

It basically comes down to this:

If you want a easy experience, but the camera perspective rather than sight/sound/skill is the main decider of the outcome of a fight then pick normal mode.

If you want a game with balanced PvP with skill and experience being the decider if you live or die then pick Hardcore.

Also just to clarify that statement as it will annoy some because it implies that lesser skill players play normal mode. Skilled players do play normal mode but my point is that the camera perspective will have the greatest influence over outcomes rather than individual skill of players and will continue to do so until 3PP is reworked and balanced.

I wouldn't call it easier, as a whole. Camping is easier, but that's about it. When it comes to moving around, scouting, and such, everyone else can get the drop on you, and that aspect balances it out.

Hardcore is essentially the opposite. I find that standing still is more dangerous, with the limited sight, while moving around and exploring tends to be safer, as the collective limits to sight mean that much more of the map, at any given time, is unseen by players.

In terms of realism, until there's a proper, and working, suite of sounds, the overly limited situational awareness of 1PP makes it no more realistic than the overly expanded awareness of 3PP.

As others have pointed out, both servers have their share of cheaters as well.

I am more worried, though, by how fanatically defensive Hardcore players are. These discussions always devolve into the type of "Fair and Balanced" discourse that would make Fox News proud.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

 

Ever consider that not everyone sees DayZ as a military sim? ;3

 

 

Filling the medic role is easy mode on 3PP servers, too. It's not just the shooting aspect that becomes exponentially easier.

[Ineedscoffee 464]

christ, just play both. your only limiting yourself by not.

[MagneticToast 102]

I switched over a week or so in and never went back. I have a fully kitted character on regular but I just can't enjoy the fact that people can use 3PP to see around everything. Ruins the experience for me

[b0hem 21]

hardcore servers are more realistic than regular ones. 

[finalstraw 193]

I wouldn't call it easier, as a whole. Camping is easier, but that's about it. When it comes to moving around, scouting, and such, everyone else can get the drop on you, and that aspect balances it out.

Hardcore is essentially the opposite. I find that standing still is more dangerous, with the limited sight, while moving around and exploring tends to be safer, as the collective limits to sight mean that much more of the map, at any given time, is unseen by players.

In terms of realism, until there's a proper, and working, suite of sounds, the overly limited situational awareness of 1PP makes it no more realistic than the overly expanded awareness of 3PP.

As others have pointed out, both servers have their share of cheaters as well.

I am more worried, though, by how fanatically defensive Hardcore players are. These discussions always devolve into the type of "Fair and Balanced" discourse that would make Fox News proud.

 

It is easier as a whole, if you play HC with a normal mindset you will die fairly quickly.

 

Allowing players to 'get a drop' on each other does not balance it out at all, you are talking utter nonsense. It's just creating hugely imbalanced situations depending on location. 1PP removes all these problems as the players are limited to a single perspective, the player can only see what he can see in the viewpoint (eyes) as it is in reality. For example if you want to know if a street is clear, you must look around the corner. You can't just have the camera do the work for you with no risk (see below).

 

 

Also 1PP is not 'overly limited' as you exaggerate. The features of leaning and independently turn ones head offer everything the player needs (something many other games don't have). The rest is determined by player skill and experience, something that 3PP undermines competely.

 

At least the 'fair and balanced' argument holds up. Unlike the 'muh freedums to be a shitter' one, anyone defending 3PP in it's current state is clearly doing so because they enjoy that it's unbalanced and exploit that fact completely.

 

Edit:

 

Also the only real issue with the audio is footsteps which are currently very loud even when walking. 1PP still offers the better gameplay experience despite that since that problem effects both versions equally.

Edited February 27, 2014 by -lOldBoyl-

[mssing 34]

Hmmm where have I seen this discussion before?

I am starting to think we need stickies to all the dead horse topics.

Not saying OP's points aren't valid but new posts on it each day is getting really boring.

well then idiot, stop the fuck reading them already!

[gomeowmeow 45]

Link/statistics?

mythbusters already did a experiment on it

[Chawktah 43]

People love to get gear and then camp in 3pp, only popping out from behind a wall or on a roof to shoot at others.. They also like watching themselves performing actions and looking cool in their gear.

 

Hardcore is where it's at..Sure, you still have campers, but at least you can see them when they see you. Makes firefights more fun, makes looting more intense, helps equalize pvp.. I mean, come on

[Gobbokirk 546]

well then idiot, stop the fuck reading them already!

Right after you grow up sweetie.

Now go chase that ball rolling down the driveway.

[guppy22143 1081]

Guys, quit being butthurt. It's just flame bait.

[louist 163]

It is easier as a whole, if you play HC with a normal mindset you will die fairly quickly.

Allowing players to 'get a drop' on each other does not balance it out at all, you are talking utter nonsense. It's just creating hugely imbalanced situations depending on location. 1PP removes all these problems as the players are limited to a single perspective, the player can only see what he can see in the viewpoint (eyes) as it is in reality. For example if you want to know if a street is clear, you must look around the corner. You can't just have the camera do the work for you with no risk (see below).

Also 1PP is not 'overly limited' as you exaggerate. The features of leaning and independently turn ones head offer everything the player needs (something many other games don't have). The rest is determined by player skill and experience, something that 3PP undermines competely.

At least the 'fair and balanced' argument holds up. Unlike the 'muh freedums to be a shitter' one, anyone defending 3PP in it's current state is clearly doing so because they enjoy that it's unbalanced and exploit that fact completely.

Edit:

Also the only real issue with the audio is footsteps which are currently very loud even when walking. 1PP still offers the better gameplay experience despite that since that problem effects both versions equally.

It isn't just footsteps, and, to be honest, I've found them to be loud up close, but they don't carry very far.

Aside from the few meaningless ambient sounds (creaking chain link fences, birds, and the like), the aural world of DayZ is an essentially an empty void. Hearing plays an important role in our ability to localize ourselves spatially, and in assessing our surroundings. Sometimes this is as obvious as telling that a paricular window in your house is open based on the noise. Sometimes it's more subtle, like being able to tell you're wife's reading in bed by hearing the faint rustling of paper from the foot of the stairs. Hell, I've probably gotten so accustomed to the hum of the refrigerator in my apartment that I could tell you what room I'm in, with my eyes closed, based on how faint (or not) the sound is.

Or take the movie cliche "It's quiet. Too quiet..." In DayZ it's always too quiet, and not because dayZ is filled with impending doom.

The shortcomings, in game, are a major hindrance. Part of that is impossible to correct for, but the devs are working to revamp the game's audio, and hopefully they can fill some of the gap, not just footsteps, but all the various sounds we create as we move around, like creaking floors, creaky doors, or rustling bushes, as well as filling in other meaningful ambient sounds, like running creeks and such.

And all this is ignoring the downright buggy implementation of gunshots, which in such a quiet world should be noticeable from a further distance than they currently are.

I fully admit that, situation to situation, 3PP creates huge imbalances in favor of campers. I'm not defending 3PP, I'm trying to point out that, the further back you step, the more balanced it becomes. In the image you posted, you could expand the scenario to include a third survivor behind the guy using the camera to peek around the corner, using the same tactic to look at him, so on and so forth.

This is only a game-breaking issue when 1PP and 3PP players are mixed together. When you isolate and corrall all the 3PP players into their own servers (as is currently the main purpose in having hardcore and normal servers), then those 3PP players are applying their tactics, as unrealistic as they are, against each other, while the people who would be at a major and permanent disadvantage (1PP players) are free from them.

As to the "Fox News" comparison, we both know I was referring to the vitriol constantly spouted by 1PP players at 3PP players. For instance, using terms such as "exploit" is not only using a the word's negative connotation to deamonize a group of players, it also redefines the word, as the mechanic was included for a reason, despite how unrealistic it is, and rather convienently ignores the fact that 1PP allows players to look through walls, an actual exploit.

These kinds of misrepresentations and hypocriticisms are exactly the kind Fox News uses to daemonize, say, same-sex marriage.

The question is, if you are a diehard hardcore player, and are, as a result, unaffected by the flaws of 3PP, why the name calling? Why fume at the mouth? Whatever normal players are doing has no impact on you. The way they play doesn't change anything about the way you play. Those attacks serve no purpose.

Edit:

Being able to turn your head is a great feature, as is leaning. But neither fully compensates for what is, even under optimal settings, a very limited field of view. Stand facing a wall, from two feet away. How far can you see the wall extend in you peripheral vision? Dozens of feet? Now do it in-game, and compare the difference. I don't think calling 1PP overly-limited was inaccurate, let alone an exaggeration.

Edited February 27, 2014 by louist

[Dagwood 680]

We fume because all of the videos on the Internet are in 3rd person and in every video, the 3rd person camera is used to look over or around objects. And you're right, this is not an exploit, but an implemented feature that every player has the right to use to the fullest of their abilities. BUT, for those of us who have made the decision to play FPV only, the use of 3rd person (and all of the advantages and disadvantages that it brings) cheapen the experience.

The argument that 3rd person increases your field of view doesn't make any sense. Yes, when staring at a wall at point blank range, having the camera 5 feet behind you increases what you can see in your peripherals within 5-10 feet. After that short range, the change in perspective does little to increase your FOV.

Do your same little wall staring experiment and tell me what you can see in your peripherals after 30 feet. Then, switch to first person and try using that free look feature. This is how the players on hardcore servers deal with the limitations of an alpha videogame. By adapting and overcoming. I recommend you challenge yourself and try the same.

[atmaca (DayZ) 48]

- Because mouse acceleration makes first person stupid to play

- Because zoom levels are crap atm and fov is not adjusted correctly

- Because hardcore players are usually doucebags who thinks they're better because they endure current flaws of game (such as mouse acceleration and broken zoom)

- Because hardcore players think others are casual cod fanboys.

[PhillyT 554]

Never mind...Your just backwards in general. Lulz...

 

Why, 1PP players just use the games inherently terrible movement and visibility rules to increase their ability to survive by only playing on servers were everyone is bumbling around as though they are in a halo after a ski accident.

 

I play quite a lot of both.  3PP is much more difficult as a whole.  Better players and much more tactical.  1PP normally comes down to sitting in an area and sticking your head out just a tad, waiting for someone to stumble around and wander into your field of fire.

[rickyriot 1009]

It's funny (well sort of) as I used to love "well known" DayZ player videos when my rig was just a bit too shit to play the game seriously. I would vicariously live through them. However as I got a better rig, and started using the private servers that forced 1PP I realised that all the streamers and bloggers who think they are the mutt's nuts are really just a bit pants at the game and needed the lamecore mode just to be able to play the game. Shame really. I would never play any other FPS game in 3PP. I wouldn't drop onto BF or CoD and wish it had a Tomb Raider camera mode, yet in DayZ people seem to, without any hint of shame, claim that it's meant to be played that way - "but it's built in to the game, man, why would they include it if it wasn't meant to be used man."

[rickyriot 1009]

3PP is much more difficult as a whole.  Better players and much more tactical.  

 

Oh, you... you're such a card. You should try stand up with that material.

[Dagwood 680]

^^^^ for a camper like you; I can understand why you would prefer 3rd person and think that it is more difficult. The only reason it is more difficult is because everyone knows that camping is the malt successful strategy when playing 3rd person. It also makes camping less boring as the area you can observe without being overly exposed is much larger.

Maybe you putter around like a roomba when you play first person. That does not mean that it is the same for everyone else. Try using your W and A keys when playing first person. You'd be amazed at how much more agile you feel once you've taken the time to learn the controls.

[atmaca (DayZ) 48]

Here I made a ultra hardcore for you. You can be more awesome and cool because you can't see shit. Also fights are a lot more intense now. Happy?

 

Edited February 27, 2014 by atmaca

[rickyriot 1009]

Dagwood, you need to either reply quicker, or use the quote function as I feel your comments were not aimed at me... ;)

[rickyriot 1009]

Here I made a ultra hardcore for you. You can be more awesome and cool because you can't see shit. Also fights are a lot more intense now. Happy?

 

I've got a feeling you don't really understand how the visual cortex works, but still those are some mad photoshopping skills my friend.

Edit: btw, don't you realise that all us hipster hardcore players kill close up with melee weapons. We leave the sniping to the lamecore underlings. ;)

Edited February 27, 2014 by ricp

[atmaca (DayZ) 48]

I've got a feeling you don't really understand how the visual cortex works, but still those are some mad photoshopping skills my friend.

 

Oh sorry, I forgot visual cortex is a fucking square...

 

Face it, there is no way to put a realistic human view experience on a single monitor. Not telling you 3pp is realistic either. I'm telling you to stop bitching and accept this is just a game. Currenly, 1pp ruins my experience because I can't even move my mouse properly because acceleration and see objects because of stupid zoom levels. Let everyone play as they want, either choice won't make you a better player or anything.

[Ineedscoffee 464]

- Because mouse acceleration makes first person stupid to play

- Because zoom levels are crap atm and fov is not adjusted correctly

- Because hardcore players are usually doucebags who thinks they're better because they endure current flaws of game (such as mouse acceleration and broken zoom)

- Because hardcore players think others are casual cod fanboys.

I play both, and the only way I see it is......

I get to gear two characters instead of one :)

[rickyriot 1009]

Not telling you 3pp is realistic either.

 

Well at least that's a start. ;)

 

I'm telling you to stop bitching and accept this is just a game.

 

I hate to be "that guy", but your previous reply was..

Here I made a ultra hardcore for you. You can be more awesome and cool because you can't see shit. Also fights are a lot more intense now. Happy?

So... er... who is the one bitching..   ^_^ 

 

 

The game is in Alpha so there is a lot needing tidied up regarding hardcore, but to me playing in lamecore is just like going into a game menu and selecting "Easy" from the menu. It's as close to a military simulator as Mario Bros is.

[PhillyT 554]

Oh, you... you're such a card. You should try stand up with that material.

 

I am serious.  The engine and movement are so bad.  Most of the time, it can be even easier to get people.  With 3PP you have to deal with people being more able to spot you as you move or as you sit.  With 1PP, people are so bumbly in cities and towns that you can sit quite easily along known traffic areas and slaughter people.  It makes camping easier in many ways (though wall camping isn't as easy).

 

There is nothing harder about either style in the grand scheme of things, but I do so love how people seem to think Hardcore is for l33t players.  Better PVP players run on the regular servers since there isn't enough action on the hardcore servers.