Hardcore: Shouldnt Zoom Not Exist?

[soulfirez 901]

I cant tell if a guy is my friend from 300m away, in dayz I can.

you dont even know what 300m is ....

[over9000nukez 199]

im done, you may proceed to cheer in victory, this is stressing me out, I cant tell facial features from 100m away, or tell what a guy has in his hands from 300m away unless its in an obvious position (holding like a gun) and we cant crop images to our liking to tell what people have from a distance,

 

but technology hasn't reached this capability, to be able to be realistic from 200m+, which a human cant even see letters on a gas pump, or someone's face from that far, so it almost doesn't matter.

 

im finished, have a good day.

 

by the way, im basing meters off feet, 3 feet per meter, 100 feet is like the distance from 2 telephone poles, so basically 3 telephone poles away, im not superman so I cant see what people are holding from that far.

[fitzee 248]

Hello again.

 

Alpha has nothing to do with it. The only way to get a true real world representation on a monitor would be to measure your monitor, then the distance from the monitor to your eyes. Then you make a triangle from center of your eyes to the edges of screen. That triangle would give you the proper fov measurement for your monitor. The bigger the monitor the higher fov you would need. If you set the game up this way the world would look true to life, but many players would bitch, cry, and moan about having no peripheral vision.

 

It's like in a NFS-style arcade racing game on a regular sized single monitor, if your sitting in the driver seat you will see your entire dash, instrument cluster, both side mirrors, and small inclines in the road would actually look flat. When in a race sim with proper fov on that same monitor, you most likely will not see your instument cluster or side view mirrors, and now you will see that small incline in the road.

 

Really the problem comes from games trying to simulate peripheral vision on a small flat screen. It make everything appear much smaller than it should. I've seen it stated in these forums that the U.S. marines do their shooting qualification on man sized targets, 500 meters away with iron sights, now do you really think you shouldn't be able to see a person 300 meters away.

 

Regards.

[Zoridium JackL 16]

im done, you may proceed to cheer in victory, this is stressing me out, I cant tell facial features from 100m away, or tell what a guy has in his hands from 300m away unless its in an obvious position (holding like a gun) and we cant crop images to our liking to tell what people have from a distance,

 

but technology hasn't reached this capability, to be able to be realistic from 200m+, which a human cant even see letters on a gas pump, or someone's face from that far, so it almost doesn't matter.

 

im finished, have a good day.

 

by the way, im basing meters off feet, 3 feet per meter, 100 feet is like the distance from 2 telephone poles, so basically 3 telephone poles away, im not superman so I cant see what people are holding from that far.

OK, imagine that the image of Where's Wally you posted is your real life perspective

 

^ this would be DayZ's unzoomed perspective in comparison, notice how pixelated it is in comparison?

 

^this would be DayZ's Zoom, notice how this shows more detail then my previous image, but less area, it also only shows the same amount of detail as your original image does. that's exactly how DayZ works, except instead of doing it to prove a point it does it due to technical limitations.

[over9000nukez 199]

OK, imagine that the image of Where's Wally you posted is your real life perspective

 

^ this would be DayZ's unzoomed perspective in comparison, notice how pixelated it is in comparison?

 

^this would be DayZ's Zoom, notice how this shows more detail then my previous image, but less area, it also only shows the same amount of detail as your original image does. that's exactly how DayZ works, except instead of doing it to prove a point it does it due to technical limitations.

im just saying in image one that's kind of correct to human vision, if you went on top of a mountain and saw a giant crowd of people, that's about what it would look like. wouldn't see eyes, or faces, or anything, dayz zoom you can hold right click, all the sudden you see what they are carrying, and weapons they have, and what they're doing. and im saying the only way you should be able to see whats going on down far away is by having a scope, or using a pair of binoculars, that's what I wanted to say in the psot I put pictures in, bit I couldn't get a magnified image.

[eleventhavenue 204]

But... this is how human eyes work...

Look, I have had a pair of them for my entire life, I know how they work...

Over9000nukez... are you playing with a low FoV? I think right now, that the FoV change when zooming in also depends on your FoV settings, so if you already have a low FoV setting, the game will ´´zoom in´´ even more.

[Zoridium JackL 16]

im just saying in image one that's kind of correct to human vision, if you went on top of a mountain and saw a giant crowd of people, that's about what it would look like. wouldn't see eyes, or faces, or anything, dayz zoom you can hold right click, all the sudden you see what they are carrying, and weapons they have, and what they're doing. and im saying the only way you should be able to see whats going on down far away is by having a scope, or using a pair of binoculars, that's what I wanted to say in the psot I put pictures in, bit I couldn't get a magnified image.

if you're vision is so poor that the first image I posted (or even the one you posted) looks anywhere near as detailed as it would if it were real life then you have a serious problem, I'm not kidding, if I where looking at the real world equivalent of the image you posted from roughly the same position and perspective I'd be able to see tonnes more detail.

 

I think I can confidently say that either your vision is absolutely suck ass terrible or you're astoundingly bad at spacial reasoning.

[Crooked Hauser 258]

Will someone close this thread, please? The people who don't get it well probably be dead from Darwinism in a few years anyway.

[execpro22 128]

That's ok. We can share a can of beans around the camp fire. It's an old McCoy recipe. Anyone know the special ingredient?

 

 

Wasn't that bourbon?

 

By the way that movie sucks.....

[Crooked Hauser 258]

Wasn't that bourbon?

By the way that movie sucks.....

Hahahahahah! That made me real life chuckle. I refuse to say LOL, I'm a 32 year old man, not a tween. Yes it was whiskey and yes that movie sucks. Spock's half brother hippy Vulcan? Clutching at straws, Paramount!

[execpro22 128]

Hahahahahah! That made me real life chuckle. I refuse to say LOL, I'm a 32 year old man, not a tween. Yes it was whiskey and yes that movie sucks. Spock's half brother hippy Vulcan? Clutching at straws, Paramount!

 

 

 

Yeah Shatner vs. God....

 

 

Not the most thoughtout script

 

 

 

Row row row your boat.....

[louist 163]

Hahahahahah! That made me real life chuckle. I refuse to say LOL, I'm a 32 year old man, not a tween. Yes it was whiskey and yes that movie sucks. Spock's half brother hippy Vulcan? Clutching at straws, Paramount!

Clearly you were late to join the Internet party. I'm only a year younger than yourself, and I first was exposed to LOL in 1997, before any current tweens were even born.

Fuck, that makes me feel old.

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

I agree.

I would rather see an actual focus feature that kicks in a sort of DOF effect when you click RMB,

something that makes things in the distance (middle of screen) stand out and get a little clearer while the top and bottom of the screen gets slightly blurry.

Something along those lines.

[Nicko2580 398]

im done, you may proceed to cheer in victory, this is stressing me out, I cant tell facial features from 100m away, or tell what a guy has in his hands from 300m away unless its in an obvious position (holding like a gun) and we cant crop images to our liking to tell what people have from a distance,

 

but technology hasn't reached this capability, to be able to be realistic from 200m+, which a human cant even see letters on a gas pump, or someone's face from that far, so it almost doesn't matter.

 

im finished, have a good day.

 

by the way, im basing meters off feet, 3 feet per meter, 100 feet is like the distance from 2 telephone poles, so basically 3 telephone poles away, im not superman so I cant see what people are holding from that far.

You've got to be kidding me? 

I work in a marina, where I can look out over the horizon at distances of around 5ish kilometres. 

At 200m I can easily make out a person standing on the breakwater fishing. I can easily distinguish what their wearing, colours of their shirt, jeans or if they have waders on or not and whether they're using an overhead reel or a spin reel. I can even see when they catch a fish, quite clearly. If I use my binoculars I can see what colour eyes they have at that distance!

At 500 - 1000m I can easily distinguish the hull type/colour of a given boat or make out whether it's my friends boat heading back or not.

At 5km I can still see the glint from the windscreens and reasonably distinguish the size of the boat, from something around 12ft to big ass boats approaching 70ft. 

AND I HAVE BAD EYESIGHT AND NEED GLASSES!

Human eyes adjust FOV on the fly. They typically have a FOV of 120 degrees. 

Stand somewhere where you can see far into the distance and pick something to look at; a tree, a house whatever. You can watch as your eyes adjust your FOV to focus on the distant object and render it clearer. Your peripheral vision will dim as your brain blocks it out to focus on the distant object This is a test you can perform yourself. 

DFOV is what we usually see and is what your character sees when you click the RMB. There is no zoom.

 

[-Gews- 7443]

Just gonna add: people can disagree on the LEVEL of zoom, but the fact some zoom is needed can't be argued, unless you want to turn the game into more of an arcade experience.

 

Last time I checked ARMA 3 zooms somewhat less than ARMA 2.

[finalstraw 193]

Just gonna add: people can disagree on the LEVEL of zoom, but the fact some zoom is needed can't be argued, unless you want to turn the game into more of an arcade experience.

 

Last time I checked ARMA 3 zooms somewhat less than ARMA 2.

 

This. I don't think the it should be removed at all but the 'zoom' is far too strong and gives too big of an advantage currently. Of course some here will choice to ignore this issue.

 

It's similar problem to the people who support 3PP, they choice to ignore that's it's unbalanced and unfair in many situations simple because they want it for those exact reasons and they won't compromise on it.

[Crooked Hauser 258]

Clearly you were late to join the Internet party. I'm only a year younger than yourself, and I first was exposed to LOL in 1997, before any current tweens were even born.

Fuck, that makes me feel old.

I was going to be a sarcastic dick but decided against it. No, I first got internet in like 1993 I think. It was before Kobain offed himself. I remember because I used the internet and found autopsy photos. Sick I know.

I just think LOL is a dumb thing to say. I don't even abbreviate on texts. They don't charge by the character.

[louist 163]

This. I don't think the it should be removed at all but the 'zoom' is far too strong and gives too big of an advantage currently. Of course some here will choice to ignore this issue.

It's similar problem to the people who support 3PP, they choice to ignore that's it's unbalanced and unfair in many situations simple because they want it for those exact reasons and they won't compromise on it.

That's a false comparison. 3PP can be used to give one person a district advantage over another. The guy looking around the corner of a wall while remaining hidden has a district advantage over his target.

The "zoom," however, doesn't confer any one-sided advantage, it can be equally used by all parties at all times, so it isn't an advantage, per se.

Edited February 24, 2014 by louist

[finalstraw 193]

That's a false comparison. 3PP can be used to give one person a district advantage over another. The guy looking around the corner of a wall while remaining hidden has a district advantage over his target.

The "zoom," however, doesn't confer any one-sided advantage, it can be equally used by all parties at all times, so it isn't an advantage, per se.

 

Actually my comparison between the two is that people don't want to actually comprise or debate the impact said feature has on the game. Some in fact with stubbornly defend it because they want the advantages (but never admit it).

 

The problem with the zoom isn't to do with one side advantages, but rather it gives players a superhuman ability rather than a realism based solution to lack of viewing definition. Yes, it's hard to clearly render players and objects in the distance on a monitor (compared to a human eye) but giving players cybernetic/robocop eyes isn't the answer.

 

It also makes adding binoculars a bit void... since I have to build into my face apparently.

Edited February 24, 2014 by -lOldBoyl-

[Crooked Hauser 258]

But honestly the problem would be solved if everyone just got 3 monitors and used a resolution of 6400x2080. Then you wouldn't need to zoom in or out.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Crooked Hauser

[Proper Gander 45]

Actually my comparison between the two is that people don't want to actually comprise or debate the impact said feature has on the game. Some in fact with stubbornly defend it because they want the advantages (but never admit it).

 

The problem with the zoom isn't to do with one side advantages, but rather it gives players a superhuman ability rather than a realism based solution to lack of viewing definition. Yes, it's hard to clearly render players and objects in the distance on a monitor (compared to a human eye) but giving players cybernetic/robocop eyes isn't the answer.

 

It also makes adding binoculars a bit void... since I have to build into my face apparently.

 

If "super human abilities" include the ability to see objects at 1x magnification, I'll be Super Man.

[GrappleX 354]

If "super human abilities" include the ability to see objects at 1x magnification, I'll be Super Man.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited February 24, 2014 by GrappleX

[liquidcactus 719]

The zoom actually represents true eyesight. 

In reality, your eyes are zoomed out. When you focus on something you actually can zoom your eyes in slightly to focus on that point. 

It's about the equivalent to a 1x scope.

Thats cool i had no idea. Thanx for informing me of human zoom eyes NICKO ^_^

[louist 163]

Actually my comparison between the two is that people don't want to actually comprise or debate the impact said feature has on the game. Some in fact with stubbornly defend it because they want the advantages (but never admit it).

The problem with the zoom isn't to do with one side advantages, but rather it gives players a superhuman ability rather than a realism based solution to lack of viewing definition. Yes, it's hard to clearly render players and objects in the distance on a monitor (compared to a human eye) but giving players cybernetic/robocop eyes isn't the answer.

It also makes adding binoculars a bit void... since I have to build into my face apparently.

Two points: first, if everyone has access to the same ability, it can't be considered an advantage.

Second, as other people have pointed out, the "zoom" isn't really zooming in. The default view is simply zoomed out. There's nothing super-human going on. It's simply a compromise being made to simulate, if poorly, reality.

As I posted earlier in the discussion, if the two modes were reversed, if the "zoomed in" view was default, and you could press a button to "zoom out," and access a wider FOV, no one would be complaining.

[Zoridium JackL 16]

Actually my comparison between the two is that people don't want to actually comprise or debate the impact said feature has on the game. Some in fact with stubbornly defend it because they want the advantages (but never admit it).

 

The problem with the zoom isn't to do with one side advantages, but rather it gives players a superhuman ability rather than a realism based solution to lack of viewing definition. Yes, it's hard to clearly render players and objects in the distance on a monitor (compared to a human eye) but giving players cybernetic/robocop eyes isn't the answer.

 

It also makes adding binoculars a bit void... since I have to build into my face apparently.

still more realistic then making you incredibly short sighted.

 

the true answer is to make everyone get multiple/huge monitors with incredibly high resolutions, but that's not an economical or practical solution in this day and age, so we do with what we have. I don't care about the advantages from a competative standpoint, but I would like to be able to see pretty close to how well i can see in real life, and in real life I can see a hell of a lot better then I can in DayZ without the zoom. can you think of a solution to the issue that gives near life sight to a higher degree of realism? one that is practical enough to impliment?

 

and binoculars are for seeing things at more then 1x magnification, if you don't need more then that then that's fine but personally there are plenty of situations where I would like actual magnification beyond 1x and binoculars would make a great stand-in when I don't have access to my long range scope.

 

 

Two points: first, if everyone has access to the same ability, it can't be considered an advantage.

Second, as other people have pointed out, the "zoom" isn't really zooming in. The default view is simply zoomed out. There's nothing super-human going on. It's simply a compromise being made to simulate, if poorly, reality.

As I posted earlier in the discussion, if the two modes were reversed, if the "zoomed in" view was default, and you could press a button to "zoom out," and access a wider FOV, no one would be complaining.

people would still complain, just not about the zoom, they'd complain about why the zoom is so cropped or why we have magically zoom out eyes. people just don't seem to be able to comprehend what each level of "zoom" represents and why that's not super human at all.