Make DayZ more intense/more thoughtful

[Bawzzzz 1]

If you make ammo more rare, Kos will be the same or even more, cause the people that played longer will have ammo and bambi's will have to search long before they can compete vs people that already have plenty of ammo...

[koalibears 6]

plz add bows i want to RP katniss

[ld-airgrafix 403]

I think they need to make the zombie top predator of the game, atm you have about 4-5 per smaller towns, add 20 more, 3 or 4 grouped together, make the ammo rare, and you have solution, that one bullet you had and you wasted it on a player for a rotten kiwi, next time you will think twice about being a Rambo.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ld-airgrafix

[Wolfguarde 108]

I still wonder why they haven't fixed the knife-makes-gun-sound-issue.

Probably recycled hatchet code from the mod. It works, so until they have time to polish/optimise the game it won't be fixed.

OP - This has been suggested before. I'll give a summarised version of the same answer I gave to that thread here:

Making ammunition rarer is only going to make the problem worse. The people who know how to play the game will get to the military loot zones first when a server starts up for the first time, gear themselves and their friends out with weapons, clean out the ammo spawns and kill anyone who tries to interrupt them. And they will stay there. The hardcore players will always, always have superior firepower - making the ammo rarer simply allows them to create a near-complete monopoly on it. As a server gets older, clans as a whole will have access to more ammo, while next to nobody else will find anything of value that can be used to kill someone at anything but close range - which, against a well-coordinated and well-armed squad, is never going to happen.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Wolfguarde

[Chaingunfighter 917]

And you're  telling me nailing people with a bow from 15 feet away behind a bush wouldn't be epic as hell as you watch them wonder wtf happened as they bleed out and you go and retrieve your arrow from thier soon to be lifeless corpse....

 

Then you whisper softly as they die shivering in pain

 

 

"Welcome to Chernarus"

 

Cmon! everybody wants to be rambo with the bow

 

People aren't against the bow, I think we all want bows.

I just don't think bows are going to stop the people who do find guns (someone has to, right?)

[bobotype3334 160]

Stop it with the "doing X won't stop KoS".
I see those comments on every KoS thread and they're starting to bug me. Nobody with the best interests of the game in mind wants to stop KoS, just to reduce it. And there are many ways you can reduce KoS.

 

I don't personally agree with OP's method; I'd say the answer is

• greater numbers of zombies, and 
• more dangerous zombies [zombies faster than you unless you're sprinting, with limited sprint bursts for you and NOT headshot-only zombies]                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

so that the thing players are aiming to kill is zombies, not each other. That way the majority of players conserve their ammo for self-defense, not sniping. KoS is still as prevalent as it would be IRL [maybe a fair bit more due to players who are only out to kill,] but your average player will be more concerned with the zombies in a zombie apocalypse than the people.

[dethsupport 110]

If you want to eliminate KoS remove everything that can be used to kill eachother...or play Tetris. But even then would players try to kill eachother by dropping the blocks on top of their heads if it was possible.

Even the innocence of Tetris succumbed under the weight of PVP and things like Tetris Attack were born.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Stop it with the "doing X won't stop KoS".

I see those comments on every KoS thread and they're starting to bug me. Nobody with the best interests of the game in mind wants to stop KoS, just to reduce it. And there are many ways you can reduce KoS.

 

I don't personally agree with OP's method; I'd say the answer is

• greater numbers of zombies, and 
• more dangerous zombies [zombies faster than you unless you're sprinting, with limited sprint bursts for you and NOT headshot-only zombies]                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

so that the thing players are aiming to kill is zombies, not each other. That way the majority of players conserve their ammo for self-defense, not sniping. KoS is still as prevalent as it would be IRL [maybe a fair bit more due to players who are only out to kill,] but your average player will be more concerned with the zombies in a zombie apocalypse than the people.

 

But when people say that it won't stop it, it means that it generally won't do anything to help the situation. People will KoS regardless, and I can guarantee the majority of people who KoS will continue to do so. Even if the zombies are impossibly tough, they simply aren't interesting to fight, and making them too difficult would be a problem in itself. Even reducing a mentality is very difficult. Just like vegans who say they are doing it to "help" the situation, but in reality plenty of animals are being killed in production of organic foods.

 

The word "stop" is just used as a general term in reference to the fact that it will make next to no difference overall for that feature.

[Gdaddy22 299]

Will fix KoS or won't it doesnt matter, it's still a must have. Ammo should be very EXTREMLY rare, otherwise the whole idea of a hardcore survival will be a lie

Edited February 24, 2014 by Gdaddy22

[JackNSally 4]

DON'T STOP KoS!!

 

Scarce ammo wont reduce KOS in the slightest - It will just make them have to take a little bit more time to prep a firearm and encourages more brutal methods like beating people over the head with a wrench or lacerating their arteries with a hacksaw. I can tell you one thing, If I have to spend an hour scavenging an entire town for three rounds the only place they are going is into another player, and I'd happily spend another hour of my time scavenging up three more rounds to do the same thing while employing more gruesome tactics in the meantime.

 

This is what should happen, IMO. Don't handicap KoS, just make more ways to do it other than "run to airfield/big city, get weapons/ammo/upgrades->PROFIT!->KoS" to  "do I use a bullet or two and hope I get a head shot or try to sneak up and stab them? or conserve and move on and look for more ammo, other/better weapons? Or just kill everyone by any means necessary?"

 

P.S. A bigger variety of zombies would help a tiny bit. And i'm talking adding in like spread out groups, small to big size wandering hordes, random large infestations of cities/towns/bases/airfields. I know it wont make a big difference but sometimes when someone wants to KoS and comes to a city looking for players and there's a big horde inbetween you and the other person, well, chance it? move on? help then kill?

Edited February 24, 2014 by JackNSally

[bobotype3334 160]

But when people say that it won't stop it, it means that it generally won't do anything to help the situation. People will KoS regardless, and I can guarantee the majority of people who KoS will continue to do so. Even if the zombies are impossibly tough, they simply aren't interesting to fight, and making them too difficult would be a problem in itself. Even reducing a mentality is very difficult. Just like vegans who say they are doing it to "help" the situation, but in reality plenty of animals are being killed in production of organic foods.

 

The word "stop" is just used as a general term in reference to the fact that it will make next to no difference overall for that feature.

To sum up your post: {citation needed}

Okay, I'll take it on face value that no matter what we do other than outright removing it, all players who KoS now will continue to do so in the future and forever, and there's nothing we can do.

Stop trying, Rocket! Stop the presses! Didn't you hear? It's completely impossible!

Fuck new content to divert players from KoS; that doesn't work at all, does it? let's just add more variants of American weapons and British weapons because KoS is inevitable and we're actually playing Call Of Duty.

Seriously though if you're going to stand in the way of progress at least give reasons why. Just saying "it won't happen" is not reasons. Saying "making zombies too difficult would be a problem in itself" actually supports my point the zombies are a bigger problem than the players for bandits], unless you're talking gamebreakingly OP zombies, which I'm not. And you don't think zombies are interesting to fight? [a] too bad it's a zombie apocalypse game, frantically fleeing zombie hordes until you have a gun to mow them down is indeed interesting. I gave reasons, you do the same.

The vegan metaphor is nonsensical and does not apply, either. I'm talking about a video game where you can change nearly anything, not a global meat industry and people's eating habits.

[entspeak 374]

If I recall Rocket's comments in Sacriel's stream correctly, once Bullet Physics - an open-source physics engine - is included (it's in the internal build at the moment), they want to minimize the availability of guns and get more melee/thrown/bow type weapons.

Edited February 25, 2014 by entspeak

[Wolfguarde 108]

To sum up your post: {citation needed}

Okay, I'll take it on face value that no matter what we do other than outright removing it, all players who KoS now will continue to do so in the future and forever, and there's nothing we can do.

Stop trying, Rocket! Stop the presses! Didn't you hear? It's completely impossible!

Fuck new content to divert players from KoS; that doesn't work at all, does it? let's just add more variants of American weapons and British weapons because KoS is inevitable and we're actually playing Call Of Duty.

Seriously though if you're going to stand in the way of progress at least give reasons why. Just saying "it won't happen" is not reasons. Saying "making zombies too difficult would be a problem in itself" actually supports my point the zombies are a bigger problem than the players for bandits], unless you're talking gamebreakingly OP zombies, which I'm not. And you don't think zombies are interesting to fight? [a] too bad it's a zombie apocalypse game, frantically fleeing zombie hordes until you have a gun to mow them down is indeed interesting. I gave reasons, you do the same.

The vegan metaphor is nonsensical and does not apply, either. I'm talking about a video game where you can change nearly anything, not a global meat industry and people's eating habits.

What you're doing here is polarising your opposition, which is generally not a good way to prove your point in an argument.

I agree and disagree with some of the things he's said, and with some of the points you've made. Zombies are indeed a factor that will mitigate KoS when implemented properly. But he's right in that there are some - I would say most, but that's opinion - people who KoS currently who will continue to do so even in the event that zombies become the top priority threat they need to be. There are some people who will even use their guns to draw attention to hiding players just for the sake of griefing them. And ultimately, I think what you're targeting with your post, judging from how inflamed you are, is griefers. 

The reason he argues that mitigating the KoS mentality is ultimately impossible is this. The gaming industry has conditioned shooting games/gamers into a mentality of player interaction as threat-based interaction. While it doesn't apply across the board as a standard, the fact that some players do this creates the wave effect we've seen in the original mod, where most of the players you encounter on an average server will kill on sight. They've had to, because nearly every player they've encountered does the same thing. It's a threat response to what may have originally been a minority of players... whose mentality and gaming style require others to adapt that style in order to pre-empt the threat they pose. That conditioning is hard to break down once established, perhaps even with a greater threat. You'll probably find that same minority still taking their chances with zombie hordes if they think they have a chance to kill somebody, or cause them to die. The same cycle will begin again, and people will continue to kill each other rather than risk being stabbed in the back; they will just try to do it quietly for the most part, or avoid interaction altogether if they can't find a way to do it without risk to themselves.

You'll argue that DayZ is different from other shooting games, and you're completely right. However, the mentality developed by those games is not something that is going to break down in a hurry, nor without a hell of a lot of concentrated effort from multiple angles (companies) aimed specifically at creating games that encourage a different approach. I would be happy to be proven wrong in this should the game actually do what I see as the impossible and successfully implement features that almost completely mitigate the kill on sight mentality most players currently have. I simply don't see how it's possible, and I think you will find a lot of the people arguing that any measures to that end won't do anything feel the same.

[Valadain 270]

Personally, when I say "this won't stop KoS", my intention isn't to throw my hands in the air. My intention is to get people to understand that they need to stop thinking about things in terms of KoS and no KoS.

 

We need content, certainly. I don't spend my time killing people randomly, so I absolutely want more content. Not to stop KoS, but to have things to do. Avoiding KoS isn't the point of the game, it is just one of the survival aspects. I'm all for more zombies, crafting, building, repairing, and other things that we can do to have fun in the game. I also want KoS out there hunting me from time to time. I don't want to feel safe walking up on a city, knowing all I have to worry about is zombies.

 

The only thing I don't agree with is the idea that guns should ever be so rare or ammo so rare, that it becomes a secondary weapon to melee or bows. Melee is terrible and always will be in an FPS. Thrown weapons are idiotic, entirely. Sorry, but they are. Not only is it hard as hell to get good at throwing edged weapons, but most of the light ones aren't going to brain-dead a zombie. You'll be lucky to get it in the skull at all if it isn't a heavy item like an ax.

 

Bows are interesting and certainly have some advantages, but I think those advantages are enough without taking guns out of the equation. I certainly don't demand that the game be made around my specific requirements, but just as information, not as "rage quit", I probably wouldn't continue playing the game if it was just bow-hunting zombies.

[ld-airgrafix 403]

Kos will never truly stop, but you have to give players a reason NOT to draw gun at everything that moves, if they have one bullet, they are less likely to shoot another player, especially the one with no visible loot on him such as backpack, also firing a bullet in towns should draw so much zombies that it would be hard to escape.

Players are most likely to run into each other in towns and especially everywhere where there is guns. People loot buildings even when have a full supply of food and weapons, because there is nothing to do outside these areas. Chopping trees for shelter, hunting for food are just few things players could do (if added) to avoid need to go into towns.

[bobotype3334 160]

What you're doing here is polarising your opposition, which is generally not a good way to prove your point in an argument.

I agree and disagree with some of the things he's said, and with some of the points you've made. Zombies are indeed a factor that will mitigate KoS when implemented properly. But he's right in that there are some - I would say most, but that's opinion - people who KoS currently who will continue to do so even in the event that zombies become the top priority threat they need to be. There are some people who will even use their guns to draw attention to hiding players just for the sake of griefing them. And ultimately, I think what you're targeting with your post, judging from how inflamed you are, is griefers. 

The reason he argues that mitigating the KoS mentality is ultimately impossible is this. The gaming industry has conditioned shooting games/gamers into a mentality of player interaction as threat-based interaction. While it doesn't apply across the board as a standard, the fact that some players do this creates the wave effect we've seen in the original mod, where most of the players you encounter on an average server will kill on sight. They've had to, because nearly every player they've encountered does the same thing. It's a threat response to what may have originally been a minority of players... whose mentality and gaming style require others to adapt that style in order to pre-empt the threat they pose. That conditioning is hard to break down once established, perhaps even with a greater threat. You'll probably find that same minority still taking their chances with zombie hordes if they think they have a chance to kill somebody, or cause them to die. The same cycle will begin again, and people will continue to kill each other rather than risk being stabbed in the back; they will just try to do it quietly for the most part, or avoid interaction altogether if they can't find a way to do it without risk to themselves.

You'll argue that DayZ is different from other shooting games, and you're completely right. However, the mentality developed by those games is not something that is going to break down in a hurry, nor without a hell of a lot of concentrated effort from multiple angles (companies) aimed specifically at creating games that encourage a different approach. I would be happy to be proven wrong in this should the game actually do what I see as the impossible and successfully implement features that almost completely mitigate the kill on sight mentality most players currently have. I simply don't see how it's possible, and I think you will find a lot of the people arguing that any measures to that end won't do anything feel the same.

I appreciate your well thought out and well written post, m9. I'm trying to say though, that when you say

 

 I would be happy to be proven wrong in this should the game actually do what I see as the impossible and successfully implement features that almost completely mitigate the kill on sight mentality most players currently have. I simply don't see how it's possible

Then that's what irritated me about his post. I'm saying R E D U C E, not absolutely remove

I don't want to "almost completely" remove the KoS mentality, I just want to make the average player more likely to save bullets for a zombie. This can be done, and will be done by a series of measures which are on their way. I know that they will take time, I know there will always be griefers based on any ability you give them to harm other players. I just want to reduce that behaviour, and content can do that.

 

[Wolfguarde 108]

Fair enough. I get where you're coming from, and I possibly did the same thing I criticised you for in polarising your viewpoint.

To clarify something I didn't properly expand on... I suspect that one way or another, KoS will wind up resurging after countermeasures are taken. The zombie threat will deter a lot of the people who are doing it now - until the seed group I was referring to works out how to grief people with zombie aggro mechanics, and survive doing so. The training you see in a lot of MMOs will seem like a dream in comparison to the bullshit we're going to have to deal with once that starts happening, and I fully expect that griefing technique to spread as quickly as the kill on sight mentality did. Rarer guns/ammunition will simply make their jobs easier, in allowing clans to monopolise high-grade weaponry and the ability to use it while killing off other players with impunity. And there will always be melee griefers who get their kicks out of charging up to someone and belting away until one of you dies.

The word I should have used instead of 'completely' is 'consistently', I think. The kill on sight mentality is like an invasive weed on a wide plain. Short of bombing the field, there's not much you can do to keep it from sprouting back up. I'm very much looking forward to the blow it's going to take from the zombie AI when it finally makes it in, but it's going to be nothing short of a miracle if it proves to be a permanent mitigator.

[bobotype3334 160]

Fair enough. I get where you're coming from, and I possibly did the same thing I criticised you for in polarising your viewpoint.

To clarify something I didn't properly expand on... I suspect that one way or another, KoS will wind up resurging after countermeasures are taken. The zombie threat will deter a lot of the people who are doing it now - until the seed group I was referring to works out how to grief people with zombie aggro mechanics, and survive doing so. The training you see in a lot of MMOs will seem like a dream in comparison to the bullshit we're going to have to deal with once that starts happening, and I fully expect that griefing technique to spread as quickly as the kill on sight mentality did. Rarer guns/ammunition will simply make their jobs easier, in allowing clans to monopolise high-grade weaponry and the ability to use it while killing off other players with impunity. And there will always be melee griefers who get their kicks out of charging up to someone and belting away until one of you dies.

The word I should have used instead of 'completely' is 'consistently', I think. The kill on sight mentality is like an invasive weed on a wide plain. Short of bombing the field, there's not much you can do to keep it from sprouting back up. I'm very much looking forward to the blow it's going to take from the zombie AI when it finally makes it in, but it's going to be nothing short of a miracle if it proves to be a permanent mitigator.

I don't think anything will permanently "fix" KoS either. But if players have something to focus on other than just straight up killing each other, there will be permanent, lasting effects simply because it caters to the playstyle of people there for a SHTF zombie apocalypse or a world-is-your-oyster GTAesque experience, and not just Call of Duty mindset players.

[Duenan 226]

Most of the stuff suggested in this thread is being developed along with throwing weapons and some improvised weapons. As for the ammo scarcity, i'm not sure about that

[doublebrain 255]

But when people say that it won't stop it, it means that it generally won't do anything to help the situation. People will KoS regardless, and I can guarantee the majority of people who KoS will continue to do so. Even if the zombies are impossibly tough, they simply aren't interesting to fight, and making them too difficult would be a problem in itself. Even reducing a mentality is very difficult. Just like vegans who say they are doing it to "help" the situation, but in reality plenty of animals are being killed in production of organic foods.

The word "stop" is just used as a general term in reference to the fact that it will make next to no difference overall for that feature.

I know its off topic and old but still.... Pls dont talk BS about veganism. :)

[DMentMan 707]

KoS is not a problem, without KoS, dayz would not be dayz. just saying.

[theswedishcathead 59]

I think all guns and ammo should be extremely rare. i want the game to be more  melee than shooting.

[daisho 74]

Scarce ammo wont reduce KOS in the slightest - It will just make them have to take a little bit more time to prep a firearm and encourages more brutal methods like beating people over the head with a wrench or lacerating their arteries with a hacksaw. I can tell you one thing, If I have to spend an hour scavenging an entire town for three rounds the only place they are going is into another player, and I'd happily spend another hour of my time scavenging up three more rounds to do the same thing while employing more gruesome tactics in the meantime.

 

 

 

 

And please stop acting like KOS is something that needs fixing or is a problem. KOS is a result of being given the freedom and tools to do as one sees fit, and what you are asking is to limit the freedom given to players. Just because many do not like KOS does not mean it isn't an integral part of the game. The thought of getting KOS as your sneaking around the corner or observing another player from a distance unsure of their intentions and having an internal moral dilemma about if you should approach or not is what instills paranoia and makes this game really shine.

 

Either you try and loot towns what takes time or you simple farm-hopp servers in any military building and get geared up fast...and that is the source of the problem....or all those admins, that run private server for the (apparently) sole purpose to gear up and then are bored as they don't know what else to do than shooting people.

 

I've tried it once for science, I was on late night in my timezone and was looking for empty/ very low pop servers, ran to a military base and started server hopping. I was geared/ equiped in like no time (except the little wating time you get for changing servers too often) and had a bag full of ammo that would last for days.

Despite the fact I got insta glitch-killed by falling through the floor while eating tuna (I guess i deserved it) with all that precious gear some time after I decided to not go server hopping again as this takes away all the fun of the game and renders the whole survival concept and thrill or running into the unknown utterly useless.

 

I'm not even mad, some people wanna play like that, fine by me, totally legit, but people should not have the option to farm-hopp and gear up in no time if they wanna play like that: you wann KoS? Earn it, don't go easy mode.

 

I'm not claiming all KoS'ers are abusing the server hopping thingy and of course there is critical areas I (most likely) would KoS myself in order to protect myself or "my" loot, but there should be common sense that going rampage on easy targets like fresh spawns just to chicken out and combat-log when shit hits the fan and you face an actual threat is not a cool thing to do.

 

Things hopefully will change once more content will be implemented.

I got my hopes up.

[wud 143]

Topic-title nails it
most important points imho

- less ammo

(less coastal-rambo-kiddies shooting everything without thought..
because why should they? ..nuff ammo at the moment to go fkn nuts)

- less food

(there is currently close to no survival in this game (i.e. compared to some mods of DayZ
miss those "heeelp-i-am-going-to-die" moments )

- shivering

 (if in cold condition,see playerbreath, you would slowly start shivering and have to go inside or make a fire
to prevent further shivering and finaly death)

just my 2 cents
since Hardcore is not Hardcore enough


 

Edited May 11, 2014 by dawud

[alu 3]

if ammo was rare, bandits would just kill everyone to get ammo from them. is the same thing. maybe it is going to increase the hold ups and robbery stuff. but i like when finding stuff is hard so i support you. i find it too easy to find stuff. when dayz SA was released for early access i liked the fact that there was not much to find. also in reality it would be the same, the survivors would take everything and when i arrive i only find open doors and nothing else. and if ammo was rare the server hopper would come and have enough ammo the people that are not server hoppers would have not enough ammo.

 

when zombies are a real threat in the future with wandering hordes, ammo will be just fine. otherwise you would have no ammo to kill those zeds. on the other hand if ammo was rare you would need other survivors so you survive zombie hordes. its a tricky thing.

Edited May 11, 2014 by MusabSurvivor