Server hopping has gotten worse. (actuall analysis, not a whine thread)

[crazykage 1063]

Ok, so quick disclaimer: this is alpha. Yup. I know that. Not here to whine, just to point out an observation.

 

Since the recent implementation of the logout timer (remaining in the world for 30 seconds) and the server switch timer (increased log in delay for switching servers), I have noticed a trend.

 

While these mechanics are necessary (and may need tweaking, but that's not the issue), and recently benefited me personally (combat logger did his thing, and I killed him), I think that the effect they have had on server hoppers specifically has made the situation worse, rather than better.

 

First, what do I mean by hopper? I don't mean the guy that ran 50km, found an empty town, hopped, looted, and continued playing.

 

When I say hopper, I mean the guys that log in, find a good loot zone (generally millspec loot), loot it, either log out on the spot or in a bush nearby, join a new server, loot it, rinse and repeat. Before the implementation of the timer mechanics, this was a very fast and easy way to "gear up". Now, that hopper that used to loot the facility at bashnya (hill north of NWAF with a single barracks/prison building. secluded spot rarely frequented by regular players, but commonly looted by hoppers) can no longer do so with any efficiency. It takes too long to switch servers constantly, just to loot a single building.

 

Instead, hoppers have, I think, switched gears. Now, instead of sticking with a single building, or small loot zone like a military base, they have spread themselves out to towns. ESPECIALLY those that have any building that spawns ammo, guns, or gun attachments (berez, elektro, cherno, zeleno, etc.). If a town or other "place" has even ONE piano house, school, office, or barracks building, you can safely assume that it is being targeted by hoppers. NOW, instead of being focused on a single building, they find it much more efficient to hop a town. This way, they gather a lot more material for their effort, and the timers become less of a hassle.

 

I have personally observed, since the implementation of these mechanics, near empty servers (less than 4 players) having a restart, then rejoin them only to find the next town down the road emptied out less than a few minutes later, every door open, and the one other player in the server with me is gone. I have observed low pop servers (I often play on these, for reasons I wont get into, suffice it to say it has to do with game performance issues on hi pop) player lists for long periods, noticing that a lot of players join, (and where before, when hopping, they would disappear from the list within a minute or less), and then leave generally within 10 minutes or so. Just enough time to search the key areas of large towns and cites, especially if you KNOW what to look for and where to look.

 

This is not something I am only just noticing, but rather something I have been seeing since the implementation of the timer mechanics. It is only NOW affecting me because of the loss of a 2 week old, heavily geared, salty bastard of a character. Now that I am once again a low tier gear character, I am find it extremely difficult to equip myself with even the most basic equipment. I REPEATEDLY find myself looting a town on an empty server, to have ONE player join, and happen to be in the same town, who usually kills me...

 

The implementation of these timers, has, I think, forced hoppers to essentially spread out, and claim wider territory. The end result being that even LOW pop servers are looted out within only 15 to 20 minutes after a restart. This IS an alpha game, I know, but this CANNOT continue. Even without the recent performance issues, this is resulting in a very poorly balanced experience. How am I to test anything out, when I cant even find it?

 

I do not suggest removal of the timer mechanics (they are a must) but rather urge the developers to implement loot respawn soon.

 

On a more positive note, I like the direction the game is going thus far. Issues like this are to be expected, and are by no means a deal breaker for me. Also, I have noticed a rather stealthy addition to the ambient static objects in the game, making certain areas more fleshed out. Such as the addition of massive hay piles near some of the farm buildings (elongated ones with the animal stalls inside), or the industrial park in Berezino (the area where the schoolhouse building is found) having walls and fences added in, in addition to more lumber piles (I think). These areas look and feel less naked now. Good work with that, and keep it up!

 

 

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

Well...if server hoppers are now in the big cities, the chances that they get killed more often are bigger, so in fact, no problem for me. But you already mentioned the most important thing:

 

 

I do not suggest removal of the timer mechanics (they are a must) but rather urge the developers to implement loot respawn soon.

 

It has been mentioned that Z an loot respawn are tow of the top priorities for the devs:

 

Also, your changes listed (such as loot respawn) have mostly been identified as occurring but they are not simple and require a time to implement correctly.

 

And Dean stated:

 

 

 

...and if you take under consideration, that Zombie and Loot spawn is handled the same way (as mentioned by rocket as well), we may hopefully see soon the end of the serverhopping-age as we know it...

Edited February 10, 2014 by LaughingJack

[crazykage 1063]

"Well...if server hoppers are now in the big cities, the chances that they get killed more often are bigger, so in fact, no problem for me."

 

True, they are forced to expose themselves more, and as such, the rate of death increases accordingly. But this just makes the problem worse. Every time that hopper dies, he then CONTINUES to hop, increasing the rate at which towns are cleared out. This is a CASCADING problem: Hoppers hop, die, hop more. Loot is cleared out in towns, other players forced to hop if they want to gear up, more towns are cleared out, etc. I have literally observed DOZENS of low pop servers in my favorites and history list repeatedly getting cleaned out shortly after restarts. Over and over I see players appear in the player list and disappear within 10 minutes. Rarely do I see another player stick around for more than 30.

 

As far as rocket's comments about respawning loot and zeds, I was aware he had said something about them coming soon fairly recently. I am simply urging it forward.

 

Do not misunderstand this as a complaint. Im not whining because I cant find 4 storage boxes, ammo can, TTsKO set, ballistic helmet, gas mask, pistol, revolver, rifle, and enough ammo to fight a war, and all of it pristine. This is just an observation, and nothing more.

 

[PhillyT 554]

I don't know.  I have been playing quite a lot and haven't really had this problem.  I have found some depleted servers, but I only play Trainwreckers and Zombz.net, which are both rarely less than 35 players.  I am still able to find loot.

 

But I know there are some servers that appear strangely depleted.  I don't think things are worse, but what may be happening is that it appears worse, given the change in loot spawns.

[TheWanderingMan 170]

Yep it's still a massive problem, just takes people a little longer that's all. I play on hardcore mode and it's pretty impossible to find an un-looted military installation( adds to the realism I suppose). I've noticed that the smaller towns that would be untouched are also starting to be done and that less people are staying on the coast unless they're after some PvP. 

 

Like the other guy said, certain loot buildings are left alone whilst others are the only ones that have been bothered with. People know that good gear spawns there so it's too easy to gear up.

[TwinSpire 49]

How will loot respawn fix the issue?  I am confused by this "solution" always being brought up.

 

Are you not finding servers that reboot every 4 hours (or less), respawning loot?

 

Or do you think respawning loot every 10 min is the solution?  I personally think faster loot spawns would make rarity of anything a joke and pretty much foster a "meta-gaming" mentality vs a survival work with what you got one.

 

I personally would rather see a larger time penalty for joining different servers.

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

How will loot respawn fix the issue?  I am confused by this "solution" always being brought up.

 

Are you not finding servers that reboot every 4 hours (or less), respawning loot?

 

Or do you think respawning loot every 10 min is the solution?  I personally think faster loot spawns would make rarity of anything a joke and pretty much foster a "meta-gaming" mentality vs a survival work with what you got one.

 

I personally would rather see a larger time penalty for joining different servers.

 

 

Afaik:

A server restart will not help in any way, because the loot will be dynamically spawn after some time.

The loot will not respawn within 10 minutes (or the old bubble system from the mod), if i remember correctly, rocket came up with something like a dynamic time-table for loot (can't find it now...somewhere on reddit or twitter....hmm...), where loot respawns after a changing time (but I think also the minimum was much more than 10 minutes), to prevent loot-cycling, also that frequently looted places may get a counter, so that the timespan between spawn in these places will be higher...hmmmmm...no, can't find it now, sorry, so take this not as an official quote, just babbling from LJ.

[Admiral_69 78]

Personally, I think the best solution to this probelm is to increase the number of players per server.

Double the number of players = half the number of servers.

Suddenly server hopping is 50% less viable.

However, I would suspect you need loot respawn, as the server admins would just halve the server restart time, making for very fragmented gameplay.

[FatboyTim 27]

I REPEATEDLY find myself looting a town on an empty server, to have ONE player join, and happen to be in the same town, who usually kills me...

 

It's happened to me multiple times, too.  I think it has more to do with ESP hacks etc. though, than 'just' server hoppers.

 

I know that alpha is alpha, but Battleye/VAC really need to be able to stop hackers ruining this game.

[PhillyT 554]

Yep it's still a massive problem, just takes people a little longer that's all. I play on hardcore mode and it's pretty impossible to find an un-looted military installation( adds to the realism I suppose). I've noticed that the smaller towns that would be untouched are also starting to be done and that less people are staying on the coast unless they're after some PvP. 

 

Like the other guy said, certain loot buildings are left alone whilst others are the only ones that have been bothered with. People know that good gear spawns there so it's too easy to gear up.

 

I am just not seeing this.  On Hardcore, I can expect Vybor or Green Mountain to be untouched abotu 75% of the time.  Maybe NEAF or Bolata, but it depends on where you are going. 

[doctorbadsign 645]

I'm just curious, in the least accusatory way possible as to how you know what the tactics are of server hoppers?

 

How do you find out?

[Admiral_69 78]

Because I have server hopped like a noob when I was a noob.

BUT, now that I have more experience under my belt, I don't usually hop. It is very risky, going into a place without scouting it first. (E.g. The risk reward ratio has switched)

Plus, after I finally understood the loot locations (this spawns here, that spawns there), I could actually find stuff without hopping, just by going a short distance off the beaten track.

[TheWanderingMan 170]

^Server hopping always got me killed when I first started playing. Lots of people had the same idea in high loot areas so we tended to bump into each other all too often lol. 

[crazykage 1063]

I'm just curious, in the least accusatory way possible as to how you know what the tactics are of server hoppers?

 

How do you find out?

 

What with all of the discussion on the subject here in the forums, and with having played the game and understanding the mechanics of it, it isn't hard to imagine (pre timer mechanics) how to best "loot farm".

 

Added to that fact that I did it myself quite a bit when I first started playing, but rather than to gear up fast, I did it to learn about the game, and what types of loot spawn in what buildings, as well as to test walls, ladders, and stairs for clipping issues. When I was doing this, I generally only took what I needed (and filled those needs very quickly), and left everything else untouched. I didn't stockpile ammo, or farm weapons or attachments (food and sodas only in general, and only if I needed them). I also made sure not to use those characters (they died a lot, usually to deliberately clipping through walls) I hopped with in any kind of interaction with other players, be it friendly interaction or combat.

 

This was a while ago, and since then I have not hopped, although I DO generally play on low pop servers (unless actively seeking player interaction, and even then I stick to servers that aren't full). I don't do this as a more "honest" form of hopping (not actively switching servers, but still safely gearing up on low pop), but rather because I cant stand the poor performance of the game on high pops, what with lag, latency, issues picking up items or dropping them, pulling out weapons, opening doors, etc. Not to mention the constant flood of player sounds (opening cans, eating, reloading) that I hear in hi pop, but are far less common in low pop.

[-MadTommy 367]

There are many areas that can help with this problem.

 

More military locations with a lower probability of good gear.

More random loot spawning.  Having a chance of potentially finding good gear in even the crappiest locations.

Longer server switching time penalties

Player stat tracking and penalty system for server hopping characteristics. (removal of gear, death, etc)

 

Having gear hotspots that are reliable for good gear will always cause server hopping.

 

Personally I think military gear should only be found in random 'heli crash' type locations.  These should be too numerous & random to allow easy loot farming techniques..

[crazykage 1063]

I also understand that this phenomenon is by no means all inclusive (that is to say it is the case everywhere). Nor does it make playing the game "impossible", just more difficult. There is a certain amount of bad luck involved as well.

 

But now that I have had a chance to mull over what I and others have said here, a new thought occurred to me:

 

Respawning loot will NOT fix the issue. No matter how the system is implemented, loot farming in some form (be it hopping servers, or looting an area and coming back later) will always exist. I cant begin to imagine a way that respawning loot can be implemented, that players will not begin to, at some point, learn how it functions and how best to abuse it. Timers, ratios, some sort of value system (say, for example, common items have a low points value, while ammo and guns are higher points respectively, and each building or otherwise "zone" has a maximum value that cannot be exceeded), all of these things could be eventually figured out, and players will abuse them once they know how they work.

 

The only thing I can think of that would prevent this, is either having EVERY server on a private hive, or to only play on private hive/whitelist servers when they are implemented (the later being something I look forward too, personally).

 

EDIT: while I WOULD like to see a return of heli crash sites, I would NOT like to see this be the only means of obtaining weapons or other military loot. If other, civilian weapons could still be found elsewhere, it would not fix loot farming, it would only make CERTAIN items rare. And if it was the ONLY means of obtaining a firearm period, I think that it would negatively impact gameplay. In general, your average player would not be armed with a gun, and would therefore be of little threat, detracting from the fear caused by the constant risk current player encounters bring, which is NOT something I want to see go away. I really enjoy the fact that every player I encounter (with the exception of bambis) could be heavily armed and dangerous, and waiting for me in that bush just up ahead.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Crazykage

[merlointhesky 20]

I noticed this as well, and rather than a single server hopper event, I considered this a "horde of hoppers", like the biblical locusts. I've been playing for a while on hardcore servers and it didn't happen during the week, but in the weekend I noticed that all the freshly restarted servers were 40/40, while it was enough to have them get to 9am and they started emptying.

 

By logging on any of the available hardcore servers, all you can find is dust and leftovers (ruined jeans etc..).

I even tried the unusual locations, but it didn't help much. 

 

I really hope loot spawning is going to come soon, in the meanwhile I will avoid playing in the weekend on a reborn character :)

[cywehner1234 582]

> Server hopping gets fixed,

 

>Bitches about the fix

 

> ???

 

> Profit.

[Miquinei 81]

Have you got any empirical evidence proving that this is the case OP? No, you only have your biased opinion and "observations" solely based on your experience.

I don't denie that server hopping is still a problem but doubt your over simplistic "analysis".

Edited February 10, 2014 by Miquinei

[crazykage 1063]

There are many areas that can help with this problem.

 

More military locations with a lower probability of good gear.

More random loot spawning.  Having a chance of potentially finding good gear in even the crappiest locations.

Longer server switching time penalties

Player stat tracking and penalty system for server hopping characteristics. (removal of gear, death, etc)

 

Having gear hotspots that are reliable for good gear will always cause server hopping.

 

Personally I think military gear should only be found in random 'heli crash' type locations.  These should be too numerous & random to allow easy loot farming techniques..

See the edit I made in my post above for my response on heli crashes. As to the rest:

 

More locations for mil loot and lower probabilities will only increase the number of locations hoppers or farmers have to choose from, and lower probabilities will only increase the length of time they will have to hop and loot. Which, as I said above, causes a cascading effect of higher risk, therefore higher rates of death, therefore more frequent hopping, therefore more players encouraged to hop.

 

As to longer server switch time penalties, this STILL would not stop loot farming or hoping, and in the end would only punish everyone else that switches servers for honest reasons (lag, disconnects, crashes, etc.)

 

Making good gear spawns spread out randomly prevents players from knowing where to go to get them, which forces us to spread out, rather than converge. Again, I think this would negatively impact the overall experience. Currently, it is a thrill and a rush to go to military zones, knowing that other players may be on their way, or there already, or even waiting in ambush. Take away that fear factor, and the greatest appeal this game has is gone. I said before in a thread thanking dean and the dev team, that NOTHING about this game stands out as better than any other: the mechanics are clunky, the graphics are sub par by modern standards, etc. Its the genuine adrenal rush I get every time I hear a fence rattle, or see a player in my scope that makes this game one of, if not THE, best I have ever played. Recently, I made a thread about having aced another player after he logged out. I had EVERY advantage over him. He stood NO chance of beating me. Yet as I was scoped in on him, my heart rate accelerated, my palms got sweaty, even my trigger finger was getting jittery. I DO NOT want that to go away. Forcing players to converge on certain hot spots enhances this, and increases the frequency with which it occurs. 

 

Player stat tracking, while a creative idea, I think is a bad thing for this game. It could potentially punish players who have done nothing wrong. And if extended to track things like K/D ratios, would negatively impact this community.

 

I am continuing to try to imagine a manner in which respawning loot could be implemented and not abused. I DO want to play on a private hive, but I would also like to play in public hive from time to time, and not be forced to constrain myself at all times to the rules of a single community. Yeah, sometimes, I just want to go out, find a gun, and kill someone. I LOVE hunting my fellow players in this game. I mean actually HUNTING. Its a rush like no other to be able to try and seek out, outwit, and KILL another, intelligent, conscious, thinking, plotting player in such a huge environment. Something I could never do IRL, due to empathy, morality, law, etc.

[Karmaterror 982]

Hoppers most certainly still exist. I lay at Balota sniper hill and watched the player list earlier. At least 5 guys within the hour, jumped in, checked every building then logged out strait after. At least I got my zeroing about right for the last couple and took em down. Its one flaw with the hive concept, and one reason I can't wait for these private shards to come in. Untill then lets just shoot them all, they all seem to log in really close to the buildings, just pick a hill a good 3-500m away and they never see you :)

 

Some people might have a go at you for saying anything about it but its important to raise issues with new systems like this early, then there's more time to think about other options, or ways to correct it. Beans for you :)

[ninjaontour 123]

OP considers this an "actual analysis".

 

*Sigh*

[crazykage 1063]

> Server hopping gets fixed,

 

>Bitches about the fix

 

> ???

 

> Profit.

Who are you talking to? ME?

 

Server hoping was NOT fixed. Combat logging and ghosting was.

 

I "bitched" about nothing. Merely commented on my own personal observations of recent events.

 

I knew this was going to happen. I hoped it would take a little longer, but here it is. Why is it that whenever someone tries to talk about or discuss something in an intelligent and thoughtful manner around here, someone feels the need to enter into it in a manner that is either trollish, insulting, or both?

 

Have you got any empirical evidence proving that this is the case OP? No, you only have your biased opinion and "observations" solely based on your experience.

I don't denie that server hopping is still a problem but doubt your over simplistic "analysis".

Ignoring for a moment the manner in which you seem to be rudely attacking my views on the matter, NO. I do not have EMPIRICAL evidence. I didn't record anything, or take notes, or make any videos. NO, it is not an OPINION, but an observation of events and an assumption formed thereof, and NO, it is not just my experience (others have stated in this very thread that they share, to some extent, my experiences.

 

If my "analysis" seems "simplistic", as you so rudely point out, its because I DONT have any empirical data to quote. You agree with me that server hoping is a problem, yet in the same sentence shoot down my views on why it is happening. Why? You failed to mention YOUR views on the matter, but have no problem in telling me that I am wrong, and in a manner which is somewhat snarky. Unless you have something to contribute yourself, don't agree with me then insult me and tell me Im wrong. It is uncalled for and unnecessary. If you don't agree with something i have said, there is a proper way to tell me so. 

[crazykage 1063]

OP considers this an "actual analysis".

 

*Sigh*

 

Ok. I am NOT doing this. I am NOT going to continue to feed attention to these people (this simply being an example). If you disagree, fine. Give me valid reasons, or a well though out rebuttal. Tell me WHY I am wrong, make an argument, and do it in an intelligent manner that is not rude or insulting. This kind of attitude is what is ruining this community.

 

If you have nothing constructive to add, and cant do it in a respectfull manner, I refuse to argue with you. For fucks sake, put some THOUGHT into things, instead of shooting me down for doing EXACTLY what we should all be doing: working with the devs to make the game better.

[PhillyT 554]

CrazyKage, do you have a set of servers you generally play on?  I am wondering if you can hunt out another server set to move to where the issue isn't as prevalent.