Why DayZ is no survival game

[Wayze 549]

Wayze, like i said, it makes several assumptions and jumps in logic.

Yes I know, you told me that already. So you want to leave me stupid? I want to know the mistakes. Show me. If you see assumptions that are stupid or "jumps" then show them to me and tell me why my conclusion is unlikely.

Like I said, this is what the forum is for. Helping each other to understand. And you got the chance to make me understand. Just try, please.

 

Permadeath does not invalidate RNG looters. Permadeath just makes it more valuable. there are millions of hardcore characters in D3, and yet statistics show, that over half of the pearmadead characters in D3 made it to the level cap of level 60 in their quest for moar epix. (source). Losing a lvl60 epicly geared character in D3 bears definitely more gravity than losing a geared up toon in DayZ, be it mod or SA.

Like I said, this concept does work in Diablo, but not at all in DayZ (as you can see in the mod and the SA). In Diablo you don't fight against other players. You know what you have to expect. You can risk your character because there is no unknown factor that can kill you at any time. And in Diablo it's easy to reach level cap. If there was no level cap, I am pretty sure that at some point people wouldn't care about RNG anymore, because they would like to get the stats higher and higher. But this is all controlled by the developer, he decides how he designs the game. And in Diablo it works. In DayZ, a mainly PVP game, it just doesn't work.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Wayze

[skyline-gtr 130]

I would rather you no call me stupid. Although I find it a little amusing that in the same paragraph you ask for my assistance.

So here is one example, the basis of your whole post.

note: I posted this earlier but you choose to ignore it ???

Your logic is flawed and based on your opinion.

 

"How do you have fun in DayZ?

Progress: -collecting gear, building houses

Expirience: -interaction with players"

 

There is no deathmatching in DayZ, i think you misunderstand the concept.

Deathmatching would assume a start point an end point and in DayZ there is no such thing.

[irl-calibre 744]

I have to laugh at people who think the answer to PvP'ing is base building and vehicles, how on earth do you think you're going to hold on to a vehicle if you cannot even hold onto a torch and battery & your pants?

[CrazyCorky 40]

I personally would love to see some sort of progression. However the way to go about it and still have the game balance would prove to be quite difficult.

 

I think the idea of actually having your skills become more refined the more you do certain actions. The question is what would be the skills?

 

Hunting: The more you hunt the better your accuracy? The more you skin the less meat you lose while skinning?

Cooking: Meals become better prepared? Meals are more filling giving more energy? Possibly giving some sort of stat boost?

Medical: Use less bandages when healing? Easier to revive some one from unconsciousness?

Endurance: Travel further without losing energy? More resistance to getting sick? Take less damage from zombies and/or gun shots?

 

These are just some ideas. The only flaw I can see with this is that you will have people that will do nothing but work towards increasing these stats and avoid all other contact if not necessary. 

 

On the flip side it could actually help build a community within the game once camps are created and implemented as sort of a safe zone.

 

All in all I do agree that there needs to some sort of progression with the character itself.

 

Although once more zombies are implemented and the North side of the map more populated the game will actually become more survival and less about finding the military gear.

[paulusrojo 25]

OP!

 

Can you just give some examples of games that have the survival aspect done better?

 

And please give some real examples, not an indie game you played 12 years ago, that noone has heard of.

 

Edit: I'm not trying to be sassy, just curious :)

Edited February 6, 2014 by paulus83

[Element47 2481]

im outta here, would need a portal gun to follow your assumptions and conclusions.

 

 

lets agree to disagree, and finally bury this topic. you have made your point in favor of skill progression. future will tell.

[CrazyCorky 40]

@paulus83

The newest Tomb Raider can be seen as a survival game in that everything you do is for your own good while trying to rescue your friends. However the game has a set storyline. Yet the game still had a progression system. But agai you can argue that it's not survival since it's all a scripted and doesn't have permadeath.

[Daz3kPvP 4]

Now I ask you, what would be the point of running 10km? What would be the point of wasting 1 hour of my life just to do something I can reach within 2 minutes? And the best part, I do not lose ANYTHING. It is not the players fault that he is talking the most intelligent way to do something.

 

This quote right here bothers me. People who believe that they can just evade an hour of hardwork by just killing themselves to get to somewhere shows that you're in impatient player, and if you haven't noticed yet, the standalone requires loads of patience. If you don't have the patience to run 10km, why are you playing this game?

 

This came up to me in the game a few days ago when my friend and I were up at Kransnostav by the airstrip. My other friend, who is rather skilled at this game, is down in Balota, and we needed to meet up with him. Being the nice guy that I am I told him he only had to go to Cherno, and that we would go the rest. So my friend and I at the airstrip, who happened to have an M4, mosin, and 2 FNX pistols, had a decision to make to meet him there. At the time, I didn't measure how long of a trip that would be. We followed the road down to Rify and followed the coast there. That entire run, which I figured out was around 12.2km in length took us around 45-60 minutes to complete. If you can't do that, then don't play this game, because half the fun comes from the events that unfold along these roads, whether it would be killing the impending zombie horde or the classic players who run down a hill to say "Hi" to you. 

 

Running in this game completes it. If DayZ consisted of 3-4 cities that were 250m away from each other, that wouldn't be fun, because you're missing the open world MMO that separates this game from mainstream shooters such as COD or Battlefield. If this was the case, it would be another Battlefield 4 map or something of that nature. If you aren't patient, go play those mainstream shooters, because this game isn't right for you.

 

At the moment, I understand that there isn't an actual "end game" scenario. Once you get geared with your nice shiny M4 or your pristine long range mosin, you then ask yourself "Well now what do I do?" The answer is pretty simple: pick your poison; should you be the fresh spawn hero, helping people where you can whenever you can, or do you become the bandit who craves more loot from your victims to survive?

Both of these scenarios have their risks and their rewards, but this is what I believe is the end scenario, until you die and then start over again, which actually isn't a bad idea if you got bored.

 

The mod itself had so much to do. After you got your weapons, you could go build a car or a helicopter. You always had the persistent need of ammunition. And you had to do this whilst trying to avoid the shot from another player that would critically injure you or kill you, and the mod was fun like that.

 

Overall, your original post is correct and incorrect IMO. Your correct part is that you don't have anything to do once you get geared, because there isn't something that is game ending for you to pursue. If there was an objective for people to fight over or something in order to take control, like a capture point, that would be a nice solution for bandits. As for the heroes, I really don't have any idea, just keep on saving people's lives, because that makes you become recognized as a nice player, which I really do believe this game needs more of. However, where you lose me is when you present examples of people killing themselves just to move around the map, whether  it would be a complaining friend who wants your help, or if you don't feel like crawling to a hospital to get your broken limb fixed. To me that shows an impatient player. Sorry if I tore into you way too much, but it's what I believe is right IMO. Good luck out there!

Edited February 6, 2014 by Daz3kPvP

[irl-calibre 744]

end game in the mod - scouring Chernarus for either a chopper to fix / fuel / ambush / steal or boxes of m240 rounds cause there was no point getting in the air if you didn't have crates of ammo. most nubs only had the 100 rounds in each from a restart -  it was all about PvP the whole time. If your group didn't control the air, you had shit on the ground.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Calibre

[zeroy 240]

I would suggest investing in some good camping gear and a combat knife and go hike in a forest near you. I dont think you get that this is a game, if the one life element isnt enough for you to make the game a survival one then you maybe baking the wrong horse. Dont get me wrong, you do make sense - except for the fact that no matter what you do, some people will choose to exploit mechanism in the game to get to their objectives.

[skyline-gtr 130]

I would suggest investing in some good camping gear and a combat knife and go hike in a forest near you. I dont think you get that this is a game, if the one life element isnt enough for you to make the game a survival one then you maybe baking the wrong horse. Dont get me wrong, you do make sense - except for the fact that no matter what you do, some people will choose to exploit mechanism in the game to get to their objectives.

 

You are confusing survival in a woodland scenario with survival in a much larger landscape that includes zombies and several towns.

Although your interpretation may soon be in game as I have heard rumours about tents and knifes and animals etc...

[zeroy 240]

You are confusing survival in a woodland scenario with survival in a much larger landscape that includes zombies and several towns.

Although your interpretation may soon be in game as I have heard rumours about tents and knifes and animals etc...

 

Was *trying* to bring in the idea that DayZ is a GAME. Therefore some mechanics will always be there to keep things fun and entertaining. 

[skyline-gtr 130]

Ohhh ok

Do you at the same time imply that a post apocalyptic world where you have to use your wits to survive in a hostile environment cannot be fun and entertaining at the same time ?

[Wayze 549]

I would rather you no call me stupid. Although I find it a little amusing that in the same paragraph you ask for my assistance.

So here is one example, the basis of your whole post.

note: I posted this earlier but you choose to ignore it ???

What do you mean by that? I thought I made clear that I meant "Players killing each other for fun" by "deathmatching". You are making no sense... :(

 

OP!

 

Can you just give some examples of games that have the survival aspect done better?

 

And please give some real examples, not an indie game you played 12 years ago, that noone has heard of.

 

Edit: I'm not trying to be sassy, just curious :)

Why would I do that and what would it have to do with the discussion?

Edited February 6, 2014 by Wayze

[pillock 850]

I agree that DayZ isn't a survival game yet. It's a tactical shoot-em-up where you have to find your kit before you fight. Character progression is definitely the way forward. Give us something to work towards and be rewarded with noticeably fitter characters: fresh spawns are pathetic weaklings who need feeding often, get tired quickly and are more susceptible to sickness; hardened survivors can run longer, run faster, carry more kit, hit harder in melee, recover from illness and injury faster... ETC!

 

Building up characters gives players a goal, which adds longevity and brings people back for more.

[skyline-gtr 130]

Wayze, you are being completely unreasonable, you avoid, ignore most thing that disagrees with you.

On the off chance you do reply, you make stuff up, and generally make a mockery of real discussion.

 

You twist words, pull half quotes, ignoring their source quote etc etc

[Daz3kPvP 4]

Wayze, so far what you have done in this entire thread has deflected/ignored quality answers to make it seem that your OP is the right solution to the problem. You're bashing those who think negatively upon your thoughts. Take a second and actually listen and respond fairly and respectfully to their post.

[paulusrojo 25]

What do you mean by that? I thought I made clear that I meant "Players killing each other for fun" by "deathmatching". You are making no sense... :(

 

Why would I do that and what would it have to do with the discussion?

I was just trying to figure out where you're going with this

 

But seeing as you are already so defensive about everything, I guess that answer was to be expected.

 

Someone called the newest Tomb Raider game a survival game. Well maybe, but that does have a story, and isn't really comparable.

Maybe Minecraft is some form of a survival game, but it does have some of the same problem you've already mentioned.

[drugarunda 1]

Not sure what you mean. The basic element of real life survival is the will not to die. It's not the will not to lose the gear. This is in my opinion the main problem with DayZ. It's all about the gear.

 

In real life you use gear to keep your life.

In DayZ you survive to keep your gear.

 

This results in very unauthentic behaviour. It results in boring endgame. It results in no point of simple survival. (you cannot enjoy running around town without a weapon and simply surviving, because there is no reward, no progress and no point, compare it to real life and there is a reward, progress and a point)

It results in players hunting for fun because gear is everything they can obtain. It makes the game simply worse. I want to people hunt other to survive. I want people to kill each other to survive. Not to keep their gear and not because of boredom.

 

If there is character value, meaning that you don't want your character to die over "you don't want to lose the gear", people will act way more authentic. But the most important part, after surviving 100 hours you won't simply go and shoot other people because you have end gear. You will still try to survive because you don't want to lose the progress. YOu cannot store all the effort you put in the character. Death will have a whole other meaing to the game. And this is, in my opinion, the core of DayZ: The fear of death.

 

This^^

 

It is about core aspects of the game. At the moment, you have progress, but it is tied to looting and gear collection. There is also progress in getting to know the environment.

 

However once you have visited most of the map, looted the buildings, seen what kind of gear is there, what is there left to do?

 

As a single player, not much - it is a big deathmatch map. As a group, perhaps you can try to help others and get a kick out of controlling bandits as your risk is minimized if you are in a sizeable group so you can revive your teammates as long as someone survives.

 

However one way or another once current progression is done, ie gearing up and knowing the map, this becomes one large deathmatch map with gear collection to enable you to DM better.

 

This gives you ~ 20 hrs of so, to get up to speed in the game, and get to the deathmatch stage. After that, other than DM there is not much more to do, or risking to be the nice guy who gets killed 9/10 times and has to run around the map for few hrs gearing up again.

 

The game itself has a lot more potential, and that potential can be delivered with different aspects which will give even more value to your character, so DM comes at a later stage, makes it even more tense given that you have more to lose. Living longer should also create stronger characters who can survive better, where your skill in playing the game, knowing the environment gives you a clear advantage over the starters. That in itself would largely reduce the bandit component in the current setup.

 

I do not see a solution in traditional RPG style, points, grinding/whatever, but in making the game harder. Ie making the weapons relatively hard to use, so you need 5-10 hrs of weapon use to be able to headshot someone regularly with it. That would be skill indexing - not via points, but via delivering game mechanics which require you to invest time in the game to be able to use gear effectively, which would mimic real life more.

 

Another way you could skill index the game, is via some abilities that you would get by surviving longer - ie 5 hrs in the game, you can cook better so your hunger is managed in an easier manner... 10 hrs, you get better with crafting, so you can craft some (non-game breaking) tools. Instead of grinding, you could tie this to "hours survived". There could be many discussions on what would be the most appropriate way to progress your character, but there should be a good reason to survive for longer, even beyond 100 hrs. You should also not become invincible, but I would expect that your 100 hrs character should not be killed by a single axe hit in the head by some local serial killer who respawns every 30 min ( maybe it should take three hits :D , but that is up for a discussion).

 

This game would also benefit greatly from user designed items to be added, via steam workshop, which I would bet someone must be thinking of, as there is so much space, perhaps new maps to be added - this type of game is made for users to get a kick out of creating content for the game itself. There can be a ton of content, I can imagine huge city maps, a number of weapons, tools, gear, cosmetic items etc... but I guess this is another topic altogether, and as this is an alpha, the core game (which is all the paragraphs above) need to be fixed to give people a lot of potential for development and reason to continue playing into thousands of hours over the years, as this type of platform/game definitely has potential to deliver.

[skyline-gtr 130]

hmm drugarunda your whole post seems to rest on the basis that after gearing up you are only left with a deathmatch.

 

Definition of deathmatch: The goal of a deathmatch game is to kill (or "frag", from the military term) as many other players as possible until a certain condition or limit is reached, commonly being a frag limit or time limit. Once one of these conditions is met, the match is over and the winner is the player that accumulated the greatest number of frags.

 

You may not be using it in this sense of the word, so if you could explain what you mean when you say deathmatch, it might aid in the understanding of the concepts you suggest to "fix" that.

[drugarunda 1]

Thanks for pointing this one out ;) .

 

Well not DM in the traditional sense, but "one-shot" DM, ie you go on, find a target kill, ideally from far away to reduce the chance of being killed yourself, and so on until someone whacks you.

 

Respawn.

 

Gear up

 

Repeat.

 

While I would not position the game development to get rid of that mechanic, in my view the game needs something else to do in (other than the above) after you have done your initial 20 hrs or so. By creating some other reasons to stay alive you can give "survive" aspect of the game another dimension. Getting killed with your valuable character would be even more painful (even though after you do the time, weapon use would stay with you for example, so you would be a lot faster "up to speed" than a newbie, but any hour indexed aspects would be lost).

 

In any case, I would call the above "DM", not sure if there already is another term for this type of game mechanic.

[skyline-gtr 130]

I would argue that while it is possible to kill someone, that it is not forced upon the player.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Skyline-GTR

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Jesus christ people.  This game is at most 10% complete.  Did none of you do any research on what the game is about before you bought it?  Do you not see the opening screen that states that this game is in alpha and will be missing features that could interrupt your gameplay??  Quit whining and bitching and go play something else until this game has completed it's course.  Then come back and give your input.

[Wayze 549]

hmm drugarunda your whole post seems to rest on the basis that after gearing up you are only left with a deathmatch.

 

Definition of deathmatch: The goal of a deathmatch game is to kill (or "frag", from the military term) as many other players as possible until a certain condition or limit is reached, commonly being a frag limit or time limit. Once one of these conditions is met, the match is over and the winner is the player that accumulated the greatest number of frags.

 

You may not be using it in this sense of the word, so if you could explain what you mean when you say deathmatch, it might aid in the understanding of the concepts you suggest to "fix" that.

Oh my god.

 

You know exactly what I meant by deathmatching:

People go around shoot each other for fun.

This is deathmatching. Shooting each other because of fun, not to survive.

 

I don't think you are around here a long time. You know, people call the situation that players kill each other for fun in DayZ "deathmatching". Is it that hard to realise that words can have more than one meaning? Seriously?

 

And EVEN IF. You know EXACTLY what I meant by deathmatching. The fact that you take words and try to give them another meaning than I have intended, is showing me that you have no arguments at all against any of my "flawed" logic that is "based" on my opinion.

 

Skyline you are trolling me. There is no other way. The only thing you did by now is telling me that I am wrong and saying that deathmatching does mean what I meant by it. Maybe I am totally stupid here, just TRY to explain to me. Why is that so hard? I actually want to understand what you mean. And I have read everything, but I just don't get it. Try to use other words or I don't now.

 

Maybe someone else can explain to me what Skyline means?!

Edited February 6, 2014 by Wayze

[skyline-gtr 130]

Oh I was asking drugarunda what he meant by it.