Logging Out - Expermimental Branch 114782

[apollovulcan 93]

It seems as though we are getting our first tastes of preventing combat logging in Standalone.  However, what the dev team has proposed for the next experimental branch/planned patch, is NOT beneficial to anyone besides KOS bandits.  I'm mostly referring to the change they made with avatars logging out.  In the next experimental branch, Rocket said that AFTER you log out your character will sit down and remain in game for 30 seconds.  If I misinterpreted this, please disregard this post.

 

 

Login: When players logout, their avatar sits on ground for 30 seconds. Players must make sure they logout somewhere safe

 

This should be the exact opposite, you should have to be able to sit down FOR 30 seconds, in a safe location, BEFORE you can log out.  EQ1 used to have the same log out procedure, and it was integral to survival in the end-game.  To clear raid mob aggro, you had to zone out, or log out of the zone and character completely.  Once you did this, anything you had attacked or was coming after you, would stop doing so.  I believe this is what Rocket and Co are trying to set up, however, they're doing it the opposite way.

 

With their current design, you still "need" 30 seconds of safety to effectively log out with no risk.  However, with the current system, the 30 seconds you have to "wait" or "need" are AFTER you have any chance to make a decision or put up a fight.  Currently, someone could log out in a "safe" area, only to have someone server hop, or just log into their server, right at their location, and kill them, completely defenselessly.  If the system were set-up to be closer to the mod version of a log out timer, it would be much better for the players.  The current set up benefits bandits and handicaps defenseless players done with their session, in the most extreme disfavor.  If the log out system could be changed, so that like EQ1, your character must: F3 and sit, be seated for 30 seconds, and then after 30 seconds of being seated, when pressing ESC and accessing the menu, they will be able to click "Exit/log out".

Now!!  On the flipside!!! If someone DOES NOT wait and sit for 30 seconds and Alt+F4s, THAT'S when their avatar should stick around for 30+ seconds in game.   Now THAT would be a log out system.  For players combat logging, in the most textbook definition, they got shot at and know they can't find somewhere to hide to sit down for 30 seconds, so they just Alt+F4; their avatar would instantly stop and be stuck in game for another 30-60 seconds.  In all honesty, if someone combat logs like that with Alt+F4, I think it would be a great idea to have their character start making the in-pain noises.  That way if they did manage to find a hiding spot, but chose not to take the 30 second chance wait, they would be stuck in game and would be making noise for the pursuing players/zombies to hear and find them.

 

So far everything's been tracking well, and to be honest, this is the first actual developmental aspect of the game that I have seen that I think is going in the wrong direction.  The currently proposed log out system will greatly benefit bandits and leave survivors completely defenseless, AFTER they have left the game.  If the system were set up to be Sit for 30 seconds, and THEN you can log out, at least then the player would stand a chance to protect themselves if something dangerous presented itself within that 30 second window.  With the current system, the player will  never have any idea something dangerous came along, because they'll log back in dead.  This would also pose issues for reporting random character loss from the database, if people die when they're logged out, they'll have no idea if their character got randomly wiped, or if they died while they were logged out sitting down for 30 seconds.

 

PersonA, we'll call him George.  George likes to play DayZ, he doesn't like to combat log, he doesn't like to server hop.  When he plays DayZ, he gets on and stays on that server, no matter how many players come or go, or what opposition he faces.  When it's time for George to log off, George is done playing DayZ for the day.  One day George was cautiously looting a town, when suddenly he heard someone reloading in the next room.  George had taken his time coming into the town, had seen Zombies undisturbed and muddling about.  He was certain that absolutely no one had been following him, surely this was a combat logger!

 

CombatLoggerA, we'll call him SirDoucheALot, hates playing DayZ legitimately.  He combat logs, he server hops at every chance he can get (even with the new server disconnect/reconnect timer).  Well SirDoucheALot wasn't originally logging out in this building to kill George, oh no!  He was running scared from a group of players he maliciously tried to spring a trap on, after his plan was foiled, he managed to take refuge inside George's house, and furiously logged out as soon as he got inside the room.  Why else would he wait?  His avatar will be there for 30 seconds after he disconnects whether it's immediately or if he waits any amount of time to see if his pursuers manage to find him, so SirDoucheALot doesn't take any unnecessary chances.  He immediately logs out.

 

After waiting the 60 second reconnect server timer, to join a different server, SirDoucheALot is now on George's server, in George's house.  George fumbles about and tries to get his gun out, the game bugs out and pulls the 357 magnum out, only to put it away immediately, SirDoucheALot walks in with his gun drawn, and kills George.  SirDoucheALot now moves to a position where he thinks A) he will be safe from the group from before or B] he will be able to attack the group more efficiently than his previous attack, and disconnects.  SirDoucheALot leaves his meaningless phantom behind on George's server, and waits his possibly up to 5 minutes to reconnect to SirDoucheALot's original server, where the group, that legitimately plays DayZ, is still operating.  Now unfortunately for this group, they ran into some Zombie trouble, and had to spend more time in town than they would've liked, knowing that SirDoucheALot's combat logging self could come back any minute now.  Though it had been nearly 10 minutes, SirDoucheALot was able to get into a position and ambush the group that had previously thwarted his attack.

 

Now poor George, and the group, have all been killed, due to combat logging and ghosting.  All of which, wasn't prevented, from leaving a 30 second avatar behind.  Moral of the story is, treating everyone like combat loggers, doesn't change how people combat log.  It just treats every player, like our poor friend George here, like a malicious combat logging douchebag, like SirDoucheALot.  Don't treat the Georges like the SirDoucheALots.

 

TL;DR - read the bold sections.

Edited January 31, 2014 by McG2

[apollovulcan 93]

My proposed log out procedure:

 

Player must sit down and stay seated for 30 seconds, after being seated for that long, the Exit to Lobby option will be available to them in the menu

- If the player decides not to wait for the exit option to become available and disconnects, exits, or closes the game in any way, their character will remain in game, making in-pain noises for 30-60 seconds before disappearing.

[SmashT 10907]

How exactly is that working?

1. When we press the button to leave the server we will move back to the server list screen and our char remains in the game for 30 seconds before fully disconnecting.
2. Before we can press the button to safely log out there is a 30 seconds period, and as soon as the timer ends our char will instantly log out when we press the button.

If it works like option 1 then I'm really disappointed with the dev team for the poor implementation of an anti combat log system (even if temporary). I know the option 1 is probably easier to implement, but it solves a problem by creating another one and that's not the correct approach.

The point of number 2 defeats the purpose of the logout system. This was trialed during the closed testing and it was found to be inferior and undesirable even by those who proposed it.

We have implemented the favored system from the initial testing. The intention is to expand this. Not only is option 2 hard to implement, it deals very badly with side cases and is highly exploitable. It still allows people to "ghost" combat log.The only time we might consider number 2 type scenario will be with prepared campsites (tent, etc...). We might try implementing it again then. But it is a lot of work for something that failed very badly in testing.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1whzfy/30_second_logout_timer_in_next_build_confirmed_by/cf2at0s?context=3

 

Rocket touched on this on Reddit (see above), personally I found the logout system in the mod incredibly frustrating when I had to leave in a hurry, I wouldn't mind a countdown if I could choose to skip it and exit immediately know my character would remain in-game until it expired.

[apollovulcan 93]

Sorry but that is all wrong in my opinion, and you all need to let the players speak their opinions on the matter.  I think you all will find a drastically different response from the majority of the player base.

 

This needs to be an IN-GAME poll or something.  Not an option where people can make forum accounts and abuse a poll.  But this seriously needs to be a poll, if that's what was come up with internally.  Sorry but that benefits everyone BUT the player.  How having to sit down for any amount of time before being able to log out effectively creates a "ghosting" effect needs to be explained.  I would argue the exact opposite, leaving your avatar in game after you've supposedly logged out for 30 seconds leaves much more of a ghost.

 

 

You still don't get it, mate.

immagine you are in combat. a Ghost can take cover and wait for the 30s cooldown you propose. then change server and move to another spot. wait for the another 30s cooldown, and then logging back at your side and shoot you.

in the current state a "wannabe-ghost" is forced to leave his character unharmed for the 30s. it will not solve the problem completly, but give you a possibility to shoot that mofo down before he can "swap-server-logback"

 

With the currently proposed "server hopping" timer, this would be prevented, would it not?  How could someone "ghost" if they disconnect, immediately join another server, and try to reconnect to the original server within a period of a few minutes?  In all honesty, the exact same argument could be made about the reverse.  Just because an avatar hangs around for 30 seconds after they've disconnected, doesn't mean that the player couldn't join another server, move to another spot, wait for disconnect on that server - which would actually leave a phantom avatar on a possibly meaningless server - to then hop back to the original, in a new location?  Sorry but that argument can be made for both scenarios, step by step.

Edited January 30, 2014 by McG2

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Log out somewhere safe, the key word is safe. If you log out in a high traffic area and someone happens to come across your body you did not follow the key word in that sentence. You guys are making it overly complicated. Your way is easily exploitable, say I lay down cover fire then hope I can sit still for 30 seconds but the person is obviously checking for me. I get all the benefit of being able to log to avoid combat with none of the risk of leaving my body there in hopes they are too afraid to check in that 30 second span. People will die due to unexpected disconnects and just bad luck but I will take that over an easily exploited mechanic any day. 

[Bubbajones 238]

 

This needs to be an IN-GAME poll or something. 

 

Sorry son, this ain't a democracy.

[Gekkonidae 270]

Agree with Smash here. I hate saying this so much, but if you've ever played the Origins mod, it's just like this and it just plain works.You log out, get up from comp and go about your business. Just know that your character is in game for another 30 seconds. If you come back and you're on the beach, you know what happened, but not exactly. I like to think of it as getting attacked in your sleep or something. It's only 30 seconds but it can make a difference. 

 

I've only ever been popped while logging on there once or twice. Both times it was my own damn fault, too. So always make sure you're in a safe spot when logging out.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Gekkonidae

[apollovulcan 93]

Sorry son, this ain't a democracy.

 

Enjoy your ghosting with meaningless phantoms on other servers, then.

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

It's a Deantatorship. ;)

 

Srsly: I'm with Dean on this one.

 

So lets say you have a firefight and hide in a house and pussy...ahm...combatlog out.

If you sit down and the timer starts you still can react if someone comes through the door. If you log out the way it is now, you never can be sure if you will be killed, so you have to man up.

 

Or you want to ghost someone, same scenario: You can't log out, because you might get shot (and you eat the queing)

 

Or Advanced (light) Serverhopping: You decide after a long run that you have everything in NWAF and log out and try ONE other server so you wont get a delay...but you will have to life with the thought tha if you log out your char will be vulnerable for that 30 seconds, and if you log in the next day to check NWAF a third time in a row, because you logged out in a military building - you are dead...

 

I dont see that it is SUCH a bad thing about that honestly. Find a place safe, log out where nobody can see you and you'll have no probs...

 

 

Edit: goddamn ninjas. They are everywhere!

Edited January 30, 2014 by LaughingJack

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Enjoy your ghosting with meaningless phantoms on other servers, then.

 

Such an easy fix, do not allow a player to connect to another server during that 30 second log out timer. Fixed. 

[Bubbajones 238]

Enjoy your ghosting with meaningless phantoms on other servers, then.

 

never had an issue with it becuase i dont spend my game sessions slapping balls with pvpers in balota.

 

but thanks for the well wishes!

[apollovulcan 93]

That makes no sense, sorry.  Why would never knowing if you're going to get killed or not prevent these actual combat loggers?  It's not going to.  They're going to leave an avatar sitting somewhere safe like they would have had they had to sit down for 30 seconds, probably more so, because they don't have to stop and wait, they can just go for it, change servers and hope for the best.  If you can't disconnect from the game and immediately reconnect to ANY server for even 30-60 seconds, that's what is going to prevent people from effectively ghosting.

 

Leaving an avatar behind for 30 seconds or forcing someone to sit down for 30 seconds give you the same result for combat logging and ghosting, especially when you add in the server disconnecting/reconnecting timer and checks.  The only difference is for every legitimate player that wants to log out safely, they now have to be treated like a douchey combat logger.

 

 

 

 

Such an easy fix, do not allow a player to connect to another server during that 30 second log out timer. Fixed. 

 

 

Exactly my point Zombie Jesus, the only difference is treating every single player like they're combat logging every single time they log out, or actually giving players the benefit of the doubt.  Sorry but you all aren't making a valid counter argument here.  This log out system literally treats every single player like they're combat logging, every single time they log out. 

 

Ghosting is going to be prevented by server reconnect/disconnect timers, so why treat every player like they're ALWAYS combat logging?

 

Why not have a system that actually penalizes players for actual combat logging (Alt+F4, disconnects) and allows every single player the option to safely log out by sitting down?

 

No one has made a counter argument to that question, yet.  In the reddit thread they didn't cover this.

Edited January 30, 2014 by McG2

[Bubbajones 238]

That makes no sense, sorry.  Why would never knowing if you're going to get killed or not prevent these actual combat loggers?  It's not going to.  They're going to leave an avatar sitting somewhere safe like they would have had they had to sit down for 30 seconds, probably more so, because they don't have to stop and wait, they can just go for it, change servers and hope for the best.  If you can't disconnect from the game and immediately reconnect to ANY server for even 30-60 seconds, that's what is going to prevent people from effectively ghosting.

 

Leaving an avatar behind for 30 seconds or forcing someone to sit down for 30 seconds give you the same result for combat logging and ghosting, especially when you add in the server disconnecting/reconnecting timer and checks.  The only difference is for every legitimate player that wants to log out safely, they now have to be treated like a douchey combat logger.

log out of one server = 30s

log into another server = 60s-120s (due to loading times)

ghost around the guy = ? say 5 minutes

log out of that server 30s

hopper penalty = 5 minutes

log into old server 60s-120s

 

result = minimum time to ghost someone 8-10 minutes out of game.

 

if you still manage to catch the guy  after all that? you win. not to mention the minute your vulnerable logging out.

[autoloon 285]

What I want to know is if I am gonna be put on some sort of list if I intentionally test the timer system on experimental.

[ChiefMasterKush 321]

Agree with Smash here. I hate saying this so much, but if you've ever played the Origins mod, it's just like this and it just plain works.You log out, get up from comp and go about your business. Just know that your character is in game for another 30 seconds. If you come back and you're on the beach, you know what happened, but not exactly. I like to think of it as getting attacked in your sleep or something. It's only 30 seconds but it can make a difference. 

 

I've only ever been popped while logging on there once or twice. Both times it was my own damn fault, too. So always make sure you're in a safe spot when logging out.

I certainly want to see this kind of feature added but I would prefer that I stay in-game while the timer is going.  You say it's like you were attacked in your sleep.  Don't you think if the first shot didn't kill you that you would wake up?  I would like to think I would and so have some chance to react.  If you are forced to be sitting when logging then you wouldn't be able to immediately start running and your situation would be pretty shitty but at least you are still connected to the matrix and have a chance to do something.

 

As the OP said EQ1 did this and I really thought it was a great way to prevent agro-dodge.

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

Wut?

 

Connecting to a new server when you left the first one, so that you exist as a duplicate? o.o

As I understood it, you cant join another server because you are in one. And you are in that server, until the 30 seconds are over, no matter if you close DayZ, burn your PC or try to connect to another server (which won't work because you ARE in a server).

 

If I'm wrong, correct me, but that was what I read out of these lines.

Edited January 30, 2014 by LaughingJack

[Bubbajones 238]

I certainly want to see this kind of feature added but I would prefer that I stay in-game while the timer is going.  You say it's like you were attacked in your sleep.  Don't you think if the first shot didn't kill you that you would wake up?  I would like to think I would and so have some chance to react.  If you are forced to be sitting when logging then you wouldn't be able to immediately start running and your situation would be pretty shitty but at least you are still connected to the matrix and have a chance to do something.

 

As the OP said EQ1 did this and I really thought it was a great way to prevent agro-dodge.

 

age of conan and SWG had the same thing and it worked very well.

[Zedicologist 162]

Just log out in a safe place.  Like everyone has said.  No need to make a big fuss about it atleast we got some kind of fix and i personally, am happy with it.  Atleast i have a shot at killing people before they magically poof.   

[ChiefMasterKush 321]

Wut?

 

Connecting to a new server when you left the first one, so that you exist as a duplicate? o.o

As I understood it, you cant join another server because you are in one. And you are in that server, until the 30 seconds are over, no matter if you close DayZ, burn your PC or try to connect to another server (which won't work because you ARE in a server).

 

If I'm wrong, correct me, but that was what I read out of these lines.

Yes, so why not allow the played to regain control of their character if shit hits the fan before the 30sec mark?  Instead of letting the shit spray all over them with no chance to do anything

 

age of conan and SWG had the same thing and it worked very well.

Sounds good.  Lets do it.   :thumbsup:

[hells high 676]

Sometimes I need to leave the game quickly, to go do stuff. Logging out and having my character chill in a bush would be better for me.

 

Also if you log out in a "safe location" and someone spawns next to you or can easily find you without knowing where you are, its probably not that safe.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Hells High

[ChiefMasterKush 321]

Just log out in a safe place.  Like everyone has said.  No need to make a big fuss about it atleast we got some kind of fix and i personally, am happy with it.  Atleast i have a shot at killing people before they magically poof.   

So you log out in a bush but someone sees you walk into this "safe" bush and takes a bet that you are logging out.  Charges the bush when they see you sit down.  They have 30 seconds to get close enough to take a shot and since you are blind, deaf and dumb you do nothing when he starts to open fire.  He unloads his entire 60 round clip and finally kills you before the 30 second timer.

 

Wouldn't you rather have a chance to stand up and run or take out your gun and shoot back?

 

I do like that this kind of feature is being implemented it's better than not having it but I don't know why we can't be present while we log out (safely), for the rare chance someone saw us setting up to log out.

[ChiefMasterKush 321]

Sometimes I need to leave the game quickly, to go do stuff. Logging out and having my character chill in a bush would be better for me.

 

Also if you log out in a "safe location" and someone spawns next to you or can easily find you without knowing where you are, its probably not that safe.

Then sit down /camp and walk away.  Same thing will happen when you're NOT at your computer in either scenario.  Generally for me, I can wait 30 seconds and make absolutely sure I am safe.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ChiefMasterKush

[Zedicologist 162]

So you log out in a bush but someone sees you walk into this "safe" bush and takes a bet that you are logging out.  Charges the bush when they see you sit down.  They have 30 seconds to get close enough to take a shot and since you are blind, deaf and dumb you do nothing when he starts to open fire.  He unloads his entire 60 round clip and finally kills you before the 30 second timer.

 

Wouldn't you rather have a chance to stand up and run or take out your gun and shoot back?

 

I do like that this kind of feature is being implemented it's better than not having it but I don't know why we can't be present while we log out (safely), for the rare chance someone saw us setting up to log out.

So you do it your way, you go into the bush and sit down.  Either way your helpless and more than likely dead.  If your sitting down,  and he/she has a drop on you.  That's it.  Your'e dead.  Its funny though, all month ive seen posts of people complaining about how this game needs a Combat log fix.  We get the combat log fix, and now we have people cpmlaining on how the fix isnt good enough for them.  Seriously?  

[D3r1L 7]

it is too complicate
easyst way is 
If u want to log out each time u have wait 10 seconds  u pres the log out button and the count down begins
if u log in u cant interact for 10 seconds anytime no shooting no hatchet fight nothing only run 



 

[ChiefMasterKush 321]

So you do it your way, you go into the bush and sit down.  Either way your helpless and more than likely dead.  If your sitting down,  and he/she has a drop on you.  That's it.  Your'e dead.  Its funny though, all month ive seen posts of people complaining about how this game needs a Combat log fix.  We get the combat log fix, and now we have people cpmlaining on how the fix isnt good enough for them.  Seriously?  

No, as I have said a few times here, I am happy a fix is being implemented.

 

I am just debating why we can't be IN GAME when logging.  I never said you would live if you were still in-game but at least you would have a chance to do something instead of not.  If you don't sit down in a "safe" spot whether you're in game or not you will likely die yes.

 

But in the off chance the guy is noob and opens fire early or just plain misses, or say you hear/see him running full speed at you.  You then have a chance to defend yourself instead of just afking while he walks up firing his gun into the air you only to pull out his ax and chop your face off.