Raw Mouse Input Is Crucial To Immersion

[skyline-gtr 130]

Oh ffs...

Instead of constantly rehashing and refrasing my replies I will just copy and paste.

"Thanks for pointing that out. Regardless of cross hair or not the same effect applies. A wider dispersion cone without cross hair would still apply. I use the cross hair as a reference point for the sake of brevity."

 

 

Cool

I can see you are getting frustrated, is it perhaps because you are clearly wrong, your thread is based on fiction and opinion and you fail to respond to the more relevant points in my replies.

[sidwulf 69]

Okay so, if you dont agree with anything i say it can only mean one thing. You want inconsistency, inaccuracy, mouse lag and poor feedback.

 

*Face into palm*

Edited February 2, 2014 by SIDWULF

[sidwulf 69]

Cool

I can see you are getting frustrated, is it perhaps because you are clearly wrong, your thread is based on fiction and opinion and you fail to respond to the more relevant points in my replies.

I fail to respond because your trying to pick apart a rock solid argument. I am confident. I know exactly what I am talking about. I speak in absolutes on this subject. The thread is mostly technical anyway. Give me your best shot with a good argument against  1:1 raw input and quit being reactive.

 

You want inconsistency, inaccuracy, mouse lag, and poor feedback. Because that is ALL you will get with anything other then raw mouse input.

 

It needs an indirect solution, that's what i have been trying to say all along, yet don't you understand? Quit poking at the stone with a straw, your only mad cause I playfully called you ignorant. (Your first post was i-n-c-r-e-d-i-b-l-y ignorant almost as if you had not read the original post at all)

Edited February 2, 2014 by SIDWULF

[louist 163]

Hi.

Not trying to be a douche(probably am anyway), but you talk about skill and using a cross hair at the same time. I really think the RV engine isn't for you. Although Rocket for some absurd reason leaves that silly dot on screen, the skilled or veteran ArmA players/servers disable that crap. Skilled players don't even need it for accurate hip firing, at least not in ranges that real-world hip firing would be a viable option.

Regards.

You know, the more I think about that dot, the less I dislike it. In the real world ( for what that's worth), you know exactly where your center of vision is.., it's exactly where you are looking.

When looking at a monitor, though, I'm much less sure.

[-Gews- 7443]

Mouse acceleration is bad for immersion.

Watching players do instant 180s and crazy twitch shooting is also bad for immersion.

They need to come up with something that makes both camps happier. Unresponsive or laggy controls are not a good thing.

[skyline-gtr 130]

I fail to respond because your trying to pick apart a rock solid argument. I am confident. I know exactly what I am talking about. I speak in absolutes on this subject. The thread is mostly technical anyway. Give me your best shot with a good argument against  1:1 raw input and quit being reactive.

 

You want inconsistency, inaccuracy, mouse lag, and poor feedback. Because that is ALL you will get with anything other then raw mouse input.

 

It needs an indirect solution, that's what i have been trying to say all along, yet don't you understand? Quit poking at the stone with a straw, your only mad cause I playfully called you ignorant. (Your first post was i-n-c-r-e-d-i-b-l-y ignorant almost as if you had not read the original post at all)

 

 

Ok so I will repeat myself.

 

This is a game in which human movement while holding different objects, is attempting to be addressed.

I think we can all agree that human movement, however much practice you have, is actually inconsistent, and inaccurate.

So I suggest that your argument is in fact out of context.

 

 

Also your thread title which you write as an absolute is in fact a matter of opinion since, immersion levels will vary from person to person and as I have already pointed out to you, for me no form of movement using a mouse to control something on the screen is going to make something immersive for me because it is a middleman in the situation.

 

Also there is no such thing as a rock solid arguement because if it was rock solid there is no arguement it would simply be stating facts.

The fact is that many people disagree with your fictional argument becaise it is in fact a matter of opinion.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Skyline-GTR

[sidwulf 69]

Ok so I will repeat myself.

 

This is a game in which human movement while holding different objects, is attempting to be addressed.

I think we can all agree that human movement, however much practice you have, is actually inconsistent, and inaccurate.

So I suggest that your argument is in fact out of context.

 

 

Also your thread title which you write as an absolute is in fact a matter of opinion since, immersion levels will vary from person to person and as I have already pointed out to you, for me no form of movement using a mouse to control something on the screen is going to make something immersive for me because it is a middleman in the situation.

 

You have nothing here of substance or merit. Most likely why I don't respond to certain parts of your posts.

 

The mouse cannot provide proper feedback for human movement while holding different objects. It works in only 2 axis. You need an indirect solution that does not interfere with the original input.

 

I am going to say again. your cheering with your pom poms for inaccuracy, inconsistency, lag and poor feedback.

Edited February 2, 2014 by SIDWULF

[skyline-gtr 130]

I can sum up this argument quite easily.

 

You: This type of solution is required to provide immersion in this game

 

Another person: No, the solution already provided is more immersive.

 

Me: No solution will be immersive, using the controls provided.

 

You: shut up, I know what im talking about, you are stupid lawl!

Edited February 2, 2014 by Skyline-GTR

[sidwulf 69]

I can sum up this argument quite easily.

 

You: This type of solution is required to provide immersion in this game

 

Another person: No, the solution already provided is more immersive.

 

Me: No solution will be immersive, using the controls provided.

 

Oh great your still here.

 

I can sum up your argument too.

 

We want Inaccuracy!

 

we want Inconsistency!

 

We want lag!

 

We want poor feedback!

 

Huraa! Huraa!

 

We wont stop until raw input is dead!

 

GooooooOOOOOOOOO Ignorance!

 

(Pink, because thats usually the color of pom poms. I'm speaking in absolutes here.)

Edited February 2, 2014 by SIDWULF

[skyline-gtr 130]

Nah mate, my arguement is that your arguement is based on fiction.

My own view on the subject has not been released on this thread.

[Estevacio 62]

As it was stated, the mouse movement is like this due to having to consider a lot of things that affect it, stamina, hunger, overall condition of your char, sometimes it does look laggy but most of the time that is due to the sudden losses/gains on fps and internet connection overall, it only needs a few tweaks, butthat will come in time, but i prefer it this way, its actually a chalenge to aim and the worse you are the harder it gets!!

[27 others 102]

you know what else makes it a challenge to aim? being paraplegic. They should implement that!

[TheTopMostDog 0]

I didn't get far in the thread, page three or so, but I don't know why people aren't suggesting these following two options, which aren't featured in many arcade-style FPS games. I'll use the crosshair metaphor to help explain the accuracy and direction of the weapon.

TL;DR, just read option 2.

 

1)

You could have completely natural mouse control and not limit turning, but balance it by making the gun less accurate if you turn faster than a specified rate for each gun. This rate should be the original turnspeed for the player while wielding said gun. Do not confuse this with standing weapon inaccuracy. This would look like usual, tight crosshairs when turning slowly, then spread crosshairs when turning fast, and then the crosshair returning to normal over time based on the displacement from the original crosshair position (meaning you could turn 2x to the left, then 1x to the right to halve the time it takes to zero compared to if you had left the crosshair at the 2x left position).

 

2)
Alternatively, and probably the better option, if you wanted to make it so the gun could not be pointed in a direction quickly (even with an accuracy penalty), you could make it so when you turn that fast, the gun lags behind the view of the player. When the weapon is not shouldered, you would be controlling the location of the character's focal point, not directly the body of the character, nor the barrel of the gun. This would look like the crosshair moving off to the right of the screen if you turn left too fast with a heavy gun. The crosshair will chase the center of the screen, catching up at different speeds depending on the weight of the gun, or when afflicted by other stat debuffs. Observing this in game would look like the character's head turning to you, followed by the body, and then the weapon. With regards to speed, you could still react as you would currently, with the added confirmation that they intend to aim directly at you. (I actually think this is more realistic, anyway.)

Edited March 19, 2014 by TheTopMostDog

[Valadain 270]

This whole thing, in my opinion is very much akin to the head-bob argument. In real life we are not a floating head. However, we know this not because our vision bobs up and down, but because we can feel our body moving. Our brain compensates for the visual bob by moving our eyes and you don't even notice it.

 

The similarity is this: An FPS style game really can't deal with eyes that move independently of your head. Nor can a mouse deal with the fact that your arms and gun can move independently of your head and your body.

 

What this means is that yes, human movement is imperfect, however, to the person it is pretty precise. An outside observer doesn't see a person spin in place like you get in an FPS style game. The person themselves however, can certainly spin pretty quickly as they can move half their body faster than the other half (spin your torso with the gun while your feet are catching up.

 

So in short, by adding things like wonky mouse movement and head bob, you simulate part of reality, while failing to take into account the limits of technology to represent the compensating factors our bodies have for these things.

[ig-rage 78]

*popcorn crunching*

[mosibfu 71]

i completely agree with OP, the mouse laggyness makes me feel distantiated from my character, especially since it does not feel constant at all to me.. as if my hand is numb..

[TheTopMostDog 0]

in short, by adding things like wonky mouse movement and head bob, you simulate part of reality, while failing to take into account the limits of technology to represent the compensating factors our bodies have for these things.

 

The only thing inaccurate representations of movement simulates is a person's inability to control themselves. Drunk simulator 2014.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Just tried out the new mouse controls for DayZ. Getting raw mouse input (1:1) for character turning. So much better. DayZDaily#

https://mobile.twitter.com/Rocket2guns/statuses/451359391628152832?screen_name=Rocket2guns

Sorry I'm on my mobile. Good news.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Dean Hall @rocket2guns New input method: Head moves instantly, what is in hands *may* be slower, i.e. the bigger the weapon the lower dexterity #DayZDaily

Got to double post because this sounds great.

[Karmaterror 982]

1:1...

 

Dayz just lost a big realism/immersion feature. Iv never felt so much like im controlling a human as I did in A2. I shed a tear today while most of you will be smiling :(

 

Hopefully that weight system will still have people messing up under pressure. Something needs to go in to replace accel and make us feel like a living creature with limitations. If it starts feeling like a normal FPS game with superman on speed reactions I wont be a happy bunny lol

[hombrecz 832]

Personally I feel, that problem with the movement as of now is usually low FPS in general.

When, I'm having 60 FPS all is fine and dandy, when I venture into Cherno it all goes south pretty quick and my character's movement feels as if he is robot.

[ref 19]

If I was holding a 50cal rifle, I would still be able to look around, without moving my gun, as freely as I would holding an M4. This cannot translate in to mouse movement in games; the mouse currently controls where you are looking and where your gun is looking, which breaks down any attempt to simulate "realism" through this input method.

 

The movement, especially aiming/looking, at the moment is horrible. There are plenty of ways to penalise big guns, as pointed out previously in this thread. They do not involve messing around with your neck muscles.

 

Furthermore (even though at the moment it's not realistic anyway), realism =/= fun.

 

 

 

Got to double post because this sounds great.

 

Plausible...

Edited April 2, 2014 by ref

[Puredeath 8]

How about use raw input, your head and sight moves with the mouse, then the body moves baised on physics. So a heavy weapon with a player standing up and not ads will over shoot then return to where your looking if you make a quick movement, working in the way a human actually moves. So twitch qcq with a heavy gun (like an lmg) would be more unwieldy feeling than an assault rifle and such, forcing players to use weapons for there designed roles...

[St. Jimmy 1631]

If I move my mouse fast I like that the character to moves the distance with a delay if not any other way. Arma 2 and DayZ makes you move even less with the negative mouse acceleration and that's what makes it feel so clunky. 1:1 doesn't necessary mean that you can do ultra fast 1080 no scope if they start to work over the 1:1 input. I think 1:1 is a better base for more realistc movement

[Windex 13]

They can limit max rotational speed to account for status effects and certain items you're carrying or using, but they really need to ditch the negative acceleration nonsense.   That's just plain broken, and the two things are not the same issue at all.