Raw Mouse Input Is Crucial To Immersion

[fitzee 248]

i dare to question though, whether removing the 'drunkness' from mouse input (not arguing in favor of a pure 1:1 ratio here) really would be detrimental and lead to an arcade-style shooter.

 

Hello again.

 

I tend to agree, I never defended the mouse acceleration. This isn't actually an engine related thing, It's more a Rocket preference, and like others have shown he is aware it needs tweaking, so hopefully by the time this thing reaches even beta status he will have a system in place that everyone can enjoy ;)

 

Regards.

 

Edit: Actually hopefully well before beta status :lol:

Edited January 31, 2014 by Romeo Foxtrot

[sidwulf 69]

Some responses seem to be missing the point of this topic including the argument and solution it represents. 1:1 raw input is essential for immersion. View port panning must be untouched and an indirect method needs to be used. The original post explains very accurately the issues with mouse post processing. There are methods available for control realism that do not interfere with mouse input. One of them is an expanding cross hair and bullet dispersion on view panning and movement. The other novel approach involves weapon momentum. It works like this: view port panning is 1:1 but weapon lags behind panning and eventually catches up. These are fairly common methods already used in certain games.

Edited February 1, 2014 by SIDWULF

[deepfried 95]

Look there are clearly pros and cons with 1:1 movement translation, on the pro side it allows for a high skill ceiling and a better human interface with more direct translation of your will into the game world (which is after all the goal of a human interface device), on the con side it allows for almost superhuman feats of precision shooting, like spinning 180 and nailing a headshot at the flick of your wrist. 

 

However much more important in my opinion are the unrealistic disadvantages of acceleration, which forces a sort of spastic malady on the player, where you can't accurately control your ability to turn or look at speed without overshooting your target and having to swing back.

 

Of the two, I choose the lesser evil. I choose 1:1.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Continuity

[NicoBaloira1357 24]

ok for all o fthe people saying that the negative acceleration gives better immersion and stuff that i why you are going to be able to toggle it. Oh, but then the people without it have an advantage, why? because it's a pain in the ass to aim with negative accel, so basically these guys are saying that I have to play DayZ and only DayZ, because if I go to play CS or BF after playing DayZ my aim is crap for a few hours, and then when I go back to DayZ it's a pain in the ass to aim in this game, after like two hours I get used to it, yes, but I don't want to play for 2 hours with this pain, and I don't want to have bad aim when I go back and play a different game, and I'm not the only one that thinks this way, so don't even think I want rocket to change this because I want to, it's because a ton of people want to.

 

This seriously is like the first person vs third person deal, the people who likes it, then use it, but then when they add the ability to toggle, don't complain that the dude has the advantage because he doesn't have mouse accel

[NicoBaloira1357 24]

Look there are clearly pros and cons with 1:1 movement translation, on the pro side it allows for a high skill ceiling and a better human interface with more direct translation of your will into the game world (which is after all the goal of a human interface device), on the con side it allows for almost superhuman feats of precision shooting, like spinning 180 and nailing a headshot at the flick of your wrist. 

 

However much more important in my opinion are the unrealistic disadvantages of acceleration, which forces a sort of spastic malady on the player, where you can't accurately control your ability to turn or look at speed without overshooting your target and having to swing back.

 

Of the two, I choose the lesser evil. I choose 1:1.

but then it is not impossible to do a 180 headshot irl, I once saw a show about guns and stuff, and they talked about this dude who could turn around and shoot a domino piece at like 20 meters away in less than a second, and never misses, it's also kinda hard to do that stuff in games tho

Edited January 31, 2014 by NicoBaloira1357

[altimor 10]

I don't see why raw mouse input has to let you shoot behind you instantly. I can look behind me just as fast as I can in a game. I can't move a horizontally held rifle that fast. Why not just implement a torque limit on the body, held item and possibly backpack? Let my head turn faster than my body like it can in real life and give extra dexterity for light/well balanced weapons. Actually calculating moment of inertia would allow you to turn faster by lowering the gun like you can in real life.

[DeatHTaX 1217]

I don't see why raw mouse input has to let you shoot behind you instantly. I can look behind me just as fast as I can in a game. I can't move a horizontally held rifle that fast. Why not just implement a torque limit on the body, held item and possibly backpack? Let my head turn faster than my body like it can in real life and give extra dexterity for light/well balanced weapons. Actually calculating moment of inertia would allow you to turn faster by lowering the gun like you can in real life.

 

They're mainly referring to that due to the issues with the acceleration right now, attempting to do a 180 and turn behind you is incredibly messed up, as in many instances your character will slow down when turning due to negative mouse acceleration, taking about 2x as long to execute a turnaround 

Edited January 31, 2014 by DeatHTaX

[altimor 10]

They're mainly referring to that due to the issues with the acceleration right now, attempting to do a 180 and turn behind you is incredibly messed up, as in many instances your character will slow down when turning due to negative mouse acceleration, taking about 2x as long to execute a turnaround 

Yea I'm aware of how it is now, and the main complaint with removing that seems to be twitch shooter-ness.

[deepfried 95]

but then it is not impossible to do a 180 headshot irl, I once saw a show about guns and stuff, and they talked about this dude who could turn around and shoot a domino piece at like 20 meters away in less than a second, and never misses, it's also kinda hard to do that stuff in games tho

 

Well, most people would call that superhuman, certainly far beyond the pail of the every day. 

 

Though its true people often underestimate what can be done irl compared to computer games with regards shooting, and in some ways shooting irl is easier than in a game, just as with any other simulation e.g. driving or flying, easier in real life because you have unrestricted head movement, proper controls, feedback from the vehicle, inertial forces etc.. so in many ways there are good arguments for making the HID as synaesthetic as possible to make up shortcomings of the simulation in other respects, even if that ignores factors like encumbrance or the weight of the gun... I bet that guy shooting the domino wasn't doing it with a 40lb pack and a SAW.

 

Make no mistake i'm fully in favour of 1:1 over acceleration, if only because I'm a counterstrike player and like many other counterstrike players I have developed my skills with very a specific mouse setup (10"/360) and like to be able to use the same setup in other games so that I don't have to "re-learn" my skill, nor by the same token degrade my pre-existing counterstrike skill by adapting to a different setup.

[27 others 102]

I don't see why raw mouse input has to let you shoot behind you instantly. I can look behind me just as fast as I can in a game. I can't move a horizontally held rifle that fast. Why not just implement a torque limit on the body, held item and possibly backpack? Let my head turn faster than my body like it can in real life and give extra dexterity for light/well balanced weapons. Actually calculating moment of inertia would allow you to turn faster by lowering the gun like you can in real life.

 

EXACTLY what i was thinking. The problem lies within the animations, tho. It probably won`t be possible for the devs to get head and arm movement done working simultaneously...

[NicoBaloira1357 24]

Well, most people would call that superhuman, certainly far beyond the pail of the every day. 

 

Though its true people often underestimate what can be done irl compared to computer games with regards shooting, and in some ways shooting irl is easier than in a game, just as with any other simulation e.g. driving or flying, easier in real life because you have unrestricted head movement, proper controls, feedback from the vehicle, inertial forces etc.. so in many ways there are good arguments for making the HID as synaesthetic as possible to make up shortcomings of the simulation in other respects, even if that ignores factors like encumbrance or the weight of the gun... I bet that guy shooting the domino wasn't doing it with a 40lb pack and a SAW.

 

Make no mistake i'm fully in favour of 1:1 over acceleration, if only because I'm a counterstrike player and like many other counterstrike players I have developed my skills with very a specific mouse setup (10"/360) and like to be able to use the same setup in other games so that I don't have to "re-learn" my skill, nor by the same token degrade my pre-existing counterstrike skill by adapting to a different setup.

no he wasn't he was doing it with a 1877 winchester, but there are other ways to simulate the weight of a gun in-game, but the sensitivity shouldn't be one, because people play at the sensitivity they feel comfortable at, at least I do, so I think that depending on the weight of a gun like slowing down movement and stuff, so yeah, and also what the op says is true, with the 1:1 mouse sensitivity  you do feel more immersed because with this negative sensitivity one just gets frustrated at not being able to turn as fast or as slow as one would want

[altimor 10]

EXACTLY what i was thinking. The problem lies within the animations, tho. It probably won`t be possible for the devs to get head and arm movement done working simultaneously...

You can already freelook while using del and end to turn.

[fitzee 248]

but then it is not impossible to do a 180 headshot irl, I once saw a show about guns and stuff, and they talked about this dude who could turn around and shoot a domino piece at like 20 meters away in less than a second, and never misses, it's also kinda hard to do that stuff in games tho

 

Hi.

 

You know that example is most likely flawed due to the fact the dude has probably practiced that move thousands of times, with the target in the exact same location, until his entire body is actually trained for it. See what happens to the show when someone moves the target 12 inches up and to the side. Without the intense practice it would take to be able to do that, nobody would have a chance of pulling it off.

 

Though I'm not arguing for or against the mouse acceleration, just pointing out a fairly obvious flaw with your example.

 

Regards.

[NicoBaloira1357 24]

Hi.

 

You know that example is most likely flawed due to the fact the dude has probably practiced that move thousands of times, with the target in the exact same location, until his entire body is actually trained for it. See what happens to the show when someone moves the target 12 inches up and to the side. Without the intense practice it would take to be able to do that, nobody would have a chance of pulling it off.

 

Though I'm not arguing for or against the mouse acceleration, just pointing out a fairly obvious flaw with your example.

 

Regards.

I know that's true, but what I mean is that it is possible, and with a bigger target the guy probably can pull it off every time, but even in DayZ with a 1:1  mouse input, it would only be possible after trying it a LOT of times, just as this guy did, because I don't think anyone would be able to pull of a 180 HS from 300 meters away

[mercules 1290]

It works like this: view port panning is 1:1 but weapon lags behind panning and eventually catches up. It is physically represented in game as the head moving first and the body following after. These are fairly common methods already used in first person shooters with good results.

Um.... The head does move first. Unlike those other games there is separate head movement in DayZ:SA as in you can actually look around. The mouse controls where your gun is pointing. Other inputs can be used to control the head. The game is remarkably realistic when you throw something into the mix like a TrackIR or one of the programs that reads your body and head movements with a webcam and translates them into similar input for controlling the game.

[eirikr 34]

I dunno, seeing someone with their sensitivity cranked doing 1080's would be pretty immersion breaking.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Erik204

[deepfried 95]

I know that's true, but what I mean is that it is possible, and with a bigger target the guy probably can pull it off every time, but even in DayZ with a 1:1  mouse input, it would only be possible after trying it a LOT of times, just as this guy did, because I don't think anyone would be able to pull of a 180 HS from 300 meters away

 

I think the point is that currently in dayz its pretty much impossible, because the negative acceleration means that moving your mouse the same distance will end up with your crosshair being in a different place depending on the speed of the movement, so unlike other games where you just have to learn how far to move you mouse to get a 180, in dayz you have to control the speed too, and basically its not possible to get consistent results as you can't control the speed and distance of the movement with enough precision to hit a target, nevermind a small target.  Also the 180 turn scenario is just an exaggerated example, the acceleration issue also affects turning smaller amounts as well, making quick target acquisition difficult in any scenario.

[sidwulf 69]

Um.... The head does move first. Unlike those other games there is separate head movement in DayZ:SA as in you can actually look around. The mouse controls where your gun is pointing. Other inputs can be used to control the head. The game is remarkably realistic when you throw something into the mix like a TrackIR or one of the programs that reads your body and head movements with a webcam and translates them into similar input for controlling the game.

I meant physically represented in third person by panning around normally. The free-look key would be independent of this where only your head turns. Thanks for pointing it out. That part will obviously confuse people.

Edited February 1, 2014 by SIDWULF

[hefeweizen 254]

Coooool. 1:1 mouse ratio. So that means I'll be getting 180 quick scoped by the snipers I sneak up on....

Great suggestion, I always wanted to play Call of DayZ.

[libertine 351]

Im going to try this acceleration fix, the World of Warcraft one...

 

http://wowinterface.com/downloads/info13581-LeatrixLatencyFix.html

 

...and i hope i don't get banned.

[altimor 10]

Um.... The head does move first. Unlike those other games there is separate head movement in DayZ:SA as in you can actually look around. The mouse controls where your gun is pointing. Other inputs can be used to control the head. The game is remarkably realistic when you throw something into the mix like a TrackIR or one of the programs that reads your body and head movements with a webcam and translates them into similar input for controlling the game.

It's impossible to move the gun and your head at the same time without TrackIR.

[Weedz 1105]

Im going to try this acceleration fix, the World of Warcraft one...

 

http://wowinterface.com/downloads/info13581-LeatrixLatencyFix.html

 

...and i hope i don't get banned.

 

What? No where on that entire page does it say anything about acceleration. Leatrix is to decrease your latency and only works in some MMORPGS where pretty much 100% of the game is serverside.

[hellcat420 212]

im not a fan of leaping 180 headshots so gonna have to say no.

[altimor 10]

im not a fan of leaping 180 headshots so gonna have to say no.

Use your damn thinkmaker, raw mouse input doesn't mean a raised gun can turn as fast as the head.

[hellcat420 212]

Use your damn thinkmaker, raw mouse input doesn't mean a raised gun can turn as fast as the head.

yea it does.