Raw Mouse Input Is Crucial To Immersion

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

feel of mouse movement in dayz is give weight to character :)

 

That's fine but it needs turning down a bit. Those of us who use mice with higher sensitivities are punished because a couple of inches of movement makes us hit a brick wall with basically no responsiveness, something people who use low sensitivity mice just don't have to deal with. People on this forum like to complain about things being unbalanced, that's pretty much the definition of unbalanced right there.

 

I'll just wait for some smartarse to tell me to turn my sensitivity down, even though I have legitimate reasons for having it high.

[fitzee 248]

Hi.

 

I get a kick from people saying the RV engine is garbage and there's nothing realistic about it.

 

I guess that's why so many militarys around the world have spent so much money on it for simulation training. I guess they should have saved a shitload of money and just told their soldiers to play crysis.

 

Thanks for the laughs, you guys crack me up.

 

Regards.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I get a kick from people saying the RV engine is garbage and there's nothing realistic about it.

 

Nobody is saying that, they're saying the mouse movement is unrealistic and breaks immersion. I have seen people say, time and time again, that they go back to DayZ Mod and that the negative acceleration is more harsh in standalone, some saying they feel "jetlagged" playing standalone.

 

Rocket himself has posted that the negative acceleration is going to be worked on so he clearly sees it more our way than yours.

[Awruk 216]

If you remove mouse stiffness firefigts will be no different from those in Quake.

[fitzee 248]

Hi Ulf.

 

Sorry I wasn't even referring to the mouse acceleration. Just the comments I saw about the engine sucking and being unrealistic.

 

People having problems moving inside buildings should blame the anims not the mouse though.

 

Regards.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

If you remove mouse stiffness firefigts will be no different from those in Quake.

 

Of course they will. In Quake you don't have to deal with your character moving around like it does in DayZ, you don't have to deal with hunger, hydration, and energy, you don't have to worry about the condition of your gear. People who say accurate mouse movement will turn DayZ in to a twitch shooter are essentially disregarding half the things that make DayZ the game it is.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Hi.

 

I get a kick from people saying the RV engine is garbage and there's nothing realistic about it.

 

I guess that's why so many militarys around the world have spent so much money on it for simulation training. I guess they should have saved a shitload of money and just told their soldiers to play crysis.

 

Thanks for the laughs, you guys crack me up.

 

Regards.

 

Everything the military does is right.

 

Right?

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Does raw mouse input mean only that if you move your mouse the character moves instantly and when the mouse stops the character stops instantly? If yes then please no. But if it means that if you move too fast the movement is just delayed but the character moves as much as you move your mouse then I'm not against but I don't know is that even possible.

[WastedSpaceman 65]

1:1 input is desperately needed.  I'm sick of the acceleration.  It makes for a jarring experience when I go from playing other games to DayZ, and it really has been a discouraging factor that's reduced how often I play.  It's not game-breaking, but there's obviously an option for it so I'm sure it will be fixed soon.

 

And LOL @ the people who draw ridiculous comparisons between the game and reality.  Instead of making idiotic arguments in support of forced mouse acceleration, go make a thread about how "realistic" it is to wake up on a beach and suddenly be able to use, load, modify, and perform maintenance on an M4 without any training or literature.

[Element47 2481]

Hi.

 

I get a kick from people saying the RV engine is garbage and there's nothing realistic about it.

 

I guess that's why so many militarys around the world have spent so much money on it for simulation training. I guess they should have saved a shitload of money and just told their soldiers to play crysis.

 

Thanks for the laughs, you guys crack me up.

 

Regards.

 

1. just because it is suitable for tactical training, doesnt mean its suitable as a game. you dont see me playing with a whiteboard and markers in the evening, although thats the #1 training tool

 

2. VBS is designed to teach tactics, procedures and doctrine. it simulates only the aspects necessary to do so. it fails at properly representing aspects not related to this goal.

 

3. the idea that governement/military spending is directed by quality first made my day. if this suddenly became true, i would lose my job ;)

Edited January 31, 2014 by e47

[libertine 351]

Any programmers that could make a test program that allowed us to edit ranges, limits and other values so we can figure this out? It kind of a complex issue to me. It represents your body, head, eye and gun movement, all at the same time. All for a FOV to the world much smaller than the just about 180 degree from real life.

 

I think alt look head movement should be 1:1 as its so easy to move your head around with your eyes doing half the work to get where you want to look. I think it should be fast, if you whip your head around and look behind you as far as your neck will allow, as fast as you can, i think most will agree.

 

I don't think 1:1 is the quite the answer for combat though. Maybe sorta 1:1 with a speed limit with a smoother (wider?) acceleration ramp and a little gun momentum that had a little learning curve to it (a great thing IMO) that varied by weight of weapon. By "momentum" i mean the gun lags behind the mouse movement a little bit.

 

One odd thing about 1:1 is that it is more immersive for me when walking around in game worlds, because i have gotten used to taking it upon myself to control the gun as if it were real, like a swat team does, or carefully and smoothing when sneaking through bushes, etc. Yet still "twitch" when i need to.

 

One thing i would like to suggest is whatever smoothing algorithm John Carmack put into Doom 3, which had no addition of lag (that i noticed, it may have had some), just smooth, smooth panning. Mice should have built in smoothing that doesn't add lag, most of mine are jerky, stuttering when trying to pan smoothly around.

 

The negative is such a cluster F, especially at low framerates and with high input lag displays. Another bad thing about making small movements with the mouse to do things at normal speed is that small movements have been shown to be very taxing on the wrists.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Thane

[atrika 0]

0/10

[Element47 2481]

there are several imaginable solutions to the issue at hand, but its clear that an issue it is.

 

and with actual firefights making maybe 2% of my dayz gameplay, while the spastic mouse movement affecting 100%, i really couldnt care less what self-proclaimed SpecOps veterans say about real combat not represented sufficiently in a mouse-controlled video game

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

with actual firefights making maybe 2% of my dayz gameplay, while the spastic mouse movement affecting 100%

 

This really is the crux of the matter, isn't it. It's all good people worrying about DayZ turning in to a twitch shooter, but what about simple things like looking around, walking through doorways, and picking up items? These things can be a real pain in the arse for me. As the topic title says, it's critical to immersion, I'm reminded every couple of minutes (or seconds if I'm indoors) that I am playing a game, a game with dodgy controls.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Ulfhedjinn

[gangrenetvp 74]

I'm reminded every couple of minutes (or seconds if I'm indoors) that I am playing a game

I've played the mod for a year and a half before SA came out... I've played SA for 55 hours... I'm not having any issues with mouse control. I have a Logitech G9 gaming mouse. I don't understand what the issue is. I move my mouse, shoot a zombie no problem... I've never noticed the mouse or had it ruin the immersion for me. 

[Nihilum 209]

I wish I misunderstood, unfortunately I didn't. A lot of people around here will get all over your back because you are asking for better mouse input, they think the current implementation is realistic and will accuse you of wanting to turn DayZ in to a twitch ego shooter. It happens every time the subject comes up.

Because that's what asking for 1:1 input will do on server based game -- instantly stupid looking to everyone else. Massive desyncs will ensue. Just a whole realm of bullshit that shouldnt be opened.

[Element47 2481]

Because that's what asking for 1:1 input will do on server based game -- instantly stupid looking to everyone else. Massive desyncs will ensue. Just a whole realm of bullshit that shouldnt be opened.

 

i dont think "stupid looking" and "desync" is something that needs an introduction. its at the core of gameplay already, isnt it? :D

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hljunPcn1A

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I've played the mod for a year and a half before SA came out... I've played SA for 55 hours... I'm not having any issues with mouse control. I have a Logitech G9 gaming mouse. I don't understand what the issue is. I move my mouse, shoot a zombie no problem... I've never noticed the mouse or had it ruin the immersion for me. 

 

You say this but you seem to be implying the mouse movement in SA is the same as it is in the mod. I played the mod from the start, I have played 120 hours of SA, I use a Logitech G400S (previously a Steelseries Sensei). If you think there's no negative acceleration or some game mechanic that simulates it, I am sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong and you don't need a mouse like that if you can't even tell.

[sidwulf 69]

Any programmers that could make a test program that allowed us to edit ranges, limits and other values so we can figure this out? It kind of a complex issue to me. It represents your body, head, eye and gun movement, all at the same time. All for a FOV to the world much smaller than the just about 180 degree from real life.

 

a little gun momentum that had a little learning curve to it (a great thing IMO) that varied by weight of weapon. By "momentum" i mean the gun lags behind the mouse movement a little bit.

 

One odd thing about 1:1 is that it is more immersive for me when walking around in game worlds, because i have gotten used to taking it upon myself to control the gun as if it were real, like a swat team does, or carefully and smoothing when sneaking through bushes, etc. Yet still "twitch" when i need to.

 

The issue is much to complex to even consider a direct solution. An indirect solution is needed as the mouse is an unconventional analogue to the human body. The myriad of variables to make a direct solution work is nauseating and will only serve to break the 1:1 synergy and thus cause a loss of immersion. You have suggested a novel mechanism for an indirect modifier though. Leaving the view port panning at 1:1 (which can be seen as head movement) then forcing the weapon to lag behind in account for weight/strength/skill.

Edited January 31, 2014 by SIDWULF

[fitzee 248]

Hi Ulf.

 

Like I already said, the clunky movement inside buildings isn't caused by the mouse acceleration, its the anims. Pretty sure the patchnotes said getting stuck in doorways is fixed. Though I didn't bother testing this time around, the mad rush to get in a test server just doesn't seem worth it.

 

Regards.

[fitzee 248]

 

1. just because it is suitable for tactical training, doesnt mean its suitable as a game.

 

Hi.

 

Well yes this is personal opinion/preference, but still, there are a lot of people that will disagree, and like myself just can't enjoy the more arcade-styled shooters made in other engines over the past 13 years. Don't get me wrong, I loved unreal tournament and other similar games until Operation Flashpoint hit the shelves. But alas, that would be my personal opinion/preference.

 

I'm sure we could both type till our fingers bleed without convincing the other of anything :D But I have to say, you will never catch me in a COD or Crysis forum telling them they should have used an engine that I prefer.

 

Regards.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

It's all well and good going back and forth, but there's a bottom line here. Rocket addressed this issue in the latest patch notes for experimental and told us that, sooner or later, there will be a reduction to the resistance against quick mouse movements, but that it's not as simple as just turning it off. He clearly sees it somewhat our way.

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

This may have been said, didn't read every post.

I think the mouse movement speed should be directly tied to your stamina.

Obviously something that wont get implemented until the stamina system arrives.

The more you weigh and the more your carrying the slower it moves.

If you make the trade off of traveling light and not carrying heavy things or having your backpack stuffed with loot,

then the mouse speed will increase.

I feel this is the most realistic and logical solution for this type of game.

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

I've played the mod for a year and a half before SA came out... I've played SA for 55 hours... I'm not having any issues with mouse control. I have a Logitech G9 gaming mouse. I don't understand what the issue is. I move my mouse, shoot a zombie no problem... I've never noticed the mouse or had it ruin the immersion for me. 

Move your mouse slowly from left to right.

Now move the mouse as fast as you can from left to right.

Both exactly the same.

That is what peoples problem is.

[Element47 2481]

Hi.

 

Well yes this is personal opinion/preference, but still, there are a lot of people that will disagree, and like myself just can't enjoy the more arcade-styled shooters made in other engines over the past 13 years. Don't get me wrong, I loved unreal tournament and other similar games until Operation Flashpoint hit the shelves. But alas, that would be my personal opinion/preference.

 

I'm sure we could both type till our fingers bleed without convincing the other of anything :D But I have to say, you will never catch me in a COD or Crysis forum telling them they should have used an engine that I prefer.

 

Regards.

 

i dare to question though, whether removing the 'drunkness' from mouse input (not arguing in favor of a pure 1:1 ratio here) really would be detrimental and lead to an arcade-style shooter.

 

as stated above, actualy shooting makes a very small fraction of gameplay for me (and many among my friends) - the fact that pan speed constantly changes (mind it, without me changing loadout) when walking around a building for example is really breaking it for me.

 

i wouldnt be against implementing a "high adrenaline" state, where all the jerkiness i so loathe at the moment returns as soon as the player enter combat state. but currently, merely exploring the buildings of a settlement is really horrible from input/interaction point of view.