What Alpha Is Supposed To Be (A Discussion On Dev Direction And If The Game Will Ever Be Completed)

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

I'm also quite shocked at the number of people who are on this forum and play this game who are developers, it's quite shocking. Every 5th person who posts here seems to be a developer.

 

The criteria has broadened significantly in the past 5 years. Everyone thinks they're an "indie developer" now because they downloaded some open source flash game and dicked around with it one weekend.

[Bubbajones 238]

step 1: go to steam

 

step 2: look at all the early access games available to the public right now.

 

step 3: understand that it is more common than you think

 

step 4: remove tinfoil hat

 

step 5: profit!

[Soupee 57]

First... anyone who thinks that Rocket/DayZ weren't generating revenue for BI during development isn't thinking clearly.  DayZ created great revenue in the form of ArmA II/OA/CO sales that would never have been sold.  You can guess that DayZ was probably responsible for millions in sales even as a mod.

 

 

 

As anyone who's been around here knows, it is impossible to "win" on here.  You're either a fanboy or a complete hater, regardless of what the actual truth is...

 

I've had many reservations about DayZ ever being "finished".  The truth is if you think the game is a complete dead end you're wrong because it already exists in some form.  And I believe if you think that BI is going to create some overarching classic with every feature, every dream, and every quirk worked out of it... you're crazy.

 

While the title is hyped up and obviously a revenue generator, but what does a "finished" DayZ look like?  Honestly, I am not sure that it could/can ever really be finished.  It's a different animal from a story based game with a set path.  And it isn't a mega-title that's going to sell 50 million copies. 

 

I think DayZ suffers, at least a little bit, from an identity crisis.  It's a niche game with niche players... and all of those niches seem to have special things they want/need from a full blown game.  It's like getting 20 people together and asking "What do you want for lunch?" vs. getting 20 people together and ordering pizza.  5 will absolutely love it, 5 absolutely hate it, and 10 will think it's a pretty good lunch. 

 

It's an amazing journey that the game has been on, I've been playing it for well over a year and I still greatly enjoy it.  I don't really "care" how DayZ ends up being recorded in the history books, but I hope it lives up to what I feel it's capable of...  I just don't know if that's even possible.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I've been watching their development webcam and all they do is practice their twerking, Matt is pretty good at it, and count money. It's like one of those cash room scenes from any good Vegas heist movie, but with more nudity.

[fitzee 248]

Hi.

 

You know, if bohemia was just after a fast buck with no intention of finishing the game, they probably would have done something much easier, like simply repacking ArmA 2 without all the assets the Dayz mod didn't use and relabeling it DayZ Standalone. Why bother making engine changes? Why bother reworking the map? Why bother remaking anything? You mention vehicles, guess what, just like my last sentences, they could have used the old ones with the exact same older system.

 

Do you(OP) even know anything about Bohemia? They are a relatively small indy company. They don't release a lot of games, but when they do, they support them and add content for years, unlike the AAA companys that release a new version of their titles yearly.

 

It was clearly stated the game probably wouldn't even reach beta stage for over a year. Not sure where the confusion comes from.

 

PS Anybody can come in here and state they are a 'fellow developer' and use that as a way to disprove others opinion. I'm not sure why you would think anybody would be obligated to believe you. Especially since you don't even seem to know there's a new trend of early access alphas.

 

Regards.

[djporternz 644]

I won't quote your OP here, as it is nothing but BS, innuendo, Conspiracy mongering and Bias.

 

I'm not going to address the specific points you raise, simply because the language you are using shows more about your biases and nothing about the process that we are involved in WRT DayZ.

 

The entirety of my reply is simply this:

 

ArmA III

Alpha -> Beta -> Release -> ... Beyond ...

 

This product from BI was released in the same manner as DayZ was. Early Access via steam for US$29 - US$99 depending on your disposition towards BI and the development of the new ArmA and the new RV engine. Even now, experimental branch is recieving regular (daily) updates. Sure, these are mostly content to do with the single player missions, but work is still being incorporated into the underlying engine. Including networking code being developed by the DayZ team.

 

The only difference between the ArmA and DayZ developments, if I might be so bold, is that the ArmA group were all, almost without exception, fully aware of what the finished product would NOT be.

 

The DayZ group as manifest here within these forums, consists of many similar minded people as the ArmA group, but there is a large and vocal group that are solely focused on the final product and are not aware of the consequences of opting-in at this stage of the development process.

 

 

The very long point that I'm making in all of this is that I no longer expect for this game to ever be completed for one of the three reasons stated.

Bias, BS and crap. In that order.

 

I'm liking the way BI are financing their development and the early access to their products. If you go in with your eyes wide open and can deal with the vagueries of this approach, it is a remarkable experience. Being there at the start and then being able to use the finished product and remember all of the bumps throughout the journey, is simply unmissable.

 

So, you can go with your rigid software development philosophy and your hard time limits for your AAA product and I hope you are emminantly happy.

 

I'm going to sit right here and let Rocket and the other devs the freedom to produce their game their way. And if it appears that their process is a little less than optimal, who cares. If it takes a little longer than anticipated, who cares. As long as they don't exclude me from the ride!

Edited January 28, 2014 by DJPorterNZ

[weedmasta 784]

As a fellow developer I felt it important to voice my own concerns as well as those of the player base that I've read or personally heard. I have no problem being the voice attacked as long as the conversation remains honest and straightforward. 

 

I believe that one of three things are happening internally with the development of this game.

 

1) Bohemia Interactive is only using this as a publicity stunt and way to generate quick revenue. It was never their intention to allow the dev team to create a finished game. The game will eventually be put on permanent hiatus. (This happens often. It happened on the last would be AAA title that I collaborated on)

 

2) The development team has no clear direction or goals. Essentially there's no clear focused way to their developmental habits which also spells doom for the game.

 

3) The development team was part of a scheme to generate a lot of money for a product that would remain in developmental hell for years before finally being put on permanent hiatus. (Not Likely)

 

What Early Access Alpha & Alpha Are Meant To Be

 

Typically when a game already has a large fan base (as this one does from their mod), a developer invites a small group of players from a player pool with different backgrounds to become testers for Early Alpha. These players usually have different levels of experience, different computer makeups, etc. so that the developer can have a wide range of data. 

 

When Alpha is released, typically a developer will open it up to a larger number of players. They give suggestions as to what they'd like to see implemented and bugs that they've found. This is the phase where core gameplay functionality is meant to be implemented. It is also the phase were there should be a strong focus on core and minor bugs. All of the player's vanity features (spray cans, etc) that are not part of the core gameplay functionality are typically (and supposed to be) implemented towards the end of Alpha heading into beta.

 

The Evidence

 

Releasing An Early Access Alpha To A Wide Public

 

As I've said above, it's unusual for a developer to release an Early Access Alpha to the entire public rather than a small amount of gamers... especially when they already have a devoted player base and a large amount of media coverage. 

 

To release the Early Access Alpha for $30 USD (remember this is usually an extremely barebones version of the game) is also unusual. Before anybody screams about the popup that you agree to before you start playing (about how the game isn't complete), I chose to buy this as a fellow developer because I had an interest in watching the game develop around the community. 

 

Releasing the EAA for $30 isn't in itself suspicious. In fact I thought it a rather smart way to raise money while ensuring the you have an invested community for the product. But when placed besides other evidence/points of interest that I will raise it becomes slightly more suspicious. 

 

The Developers Talk Console

 

I've read a seemingly endless amount of articles that were released before or near the game's release date about how the developers have already had major discussions with Sony & MIcrosoft about porting DayZ. And when reading the quotes by Dean, he makes it seem as if porting DayZ to these consoles is imminent. 

 

Anybody that knows anything knows how long and hard it is to port a popular finished PC game to console. This game is nowhere near finished and yet there is extremely ambitious language surrounding this subject (when Dean usually uses the least ambitious language about the game, updates, etc. possible). 

 

This concerns me just because of the timeline that these articles were released. To me (and others developers that I've talked to) it feels like it was meant to both increase media coverage but also bring DayZ to the attention of the average and or console gamer. Why pay $60 or more when you pay $30 now if the developers have had strong conversations about porting this game?

 

Updates/Not Listening To The Community

 

Dean states over and over again that they released the Early Access Alpha to the public so that they could listen to the community and implement features that the player base wants. There are two problems that I've already found with this.

 

1) The developers aren't listening to the community. How many features have been implemented or reduced when it's been generally agreed on by the public? How many community suggested gameplay elements have been introduced at all from any of the updates?

 

2) The updates feel like they're meant only to increase the amount of players. Who could honestly say that any of their updates have fixed or even mildly addressed any of the massive glaring holes in gameplay? So what have they introduced?

 

They've introduced what I call player's features. Features that players will become excited about for a time. Features that will receive a lot of press and ultimately bring new players. Two examples of the problem are the Shotgun and Spray-Cans.

 

The Shotgun was a main talking point in the media when the update was announced. If I hadn't played the game yet and I'd read those articles I'd have thought that this was a must-have game. While shotguns and guns in general are part of core gameplay, spray-cans are not at all. As with other updates they chose to implement a lot of player's features without addressing any of the issues that he community has requested. 

 

Empty Promises/No Timeline

 

After Dean had his public social media discussion, I became convinced that something suspicious is going on internally. Again I've worked on game development teams and I'm speaking based on that.

 

Dean has promised vehicles and a lot of other features that have players foaming at the mouth but given the development of the game and his refusal to set any sort of timeline (other than 6 months) I doubt that they will be able to reach this goal so quickly.

 

As a dev team project manager you want to set hard dates (even if you have to back off which is what usually happens) because you want to drive home the point that as a team the focus should be on implementing and debugging certain features. Thus far there's been a refusal to do so while offering lofty goals that drive press. 

 

As a point that's a bit off topic: With this last update Dean stated something like "Every developer has been forced to go home for the weekend". Anybody who has worked in the industry knows about crunchtime... the time before any update or before the game releases when the dev team works overtime to ensure that everything rolls out as planned. It's unusually and disheartening to me that they've done this and similar things that have raised concern from the player base in the past.

 

I've read many post about how players feel like an action taken by the dev team means that they don't care. A vacation here, refusing to go into crunch time (which is expected when you're a developer) there.

 

The very long point that I'm making in all of this is that I no longer expect for this game to ever be completed for one of the three reasons stated. 

 

I'd like to hear your feelings on this. 

 

I have never heard/read Dean even hint that a console port is imminent. Also I too buy games based on the fact that it has shotguns in it 8l. So many empty and false assumptions, I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you and help you get that tinfoil hat off.

[Mdogg2005 447]

The criteria has broadened significantly in the past 5 years. Everyone thinks they're an "indie developer" now because they downloaded some open source flash game and dicked around with it one weekend.

Pretty much this.

[Mdogg2005 447]

I have never heard/read Dean even hint that a console port is imminent. Also I too buy games based on the fact that it has shotguns in it 8l. So many empty and false assumptions, I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you and help you get that tinfoil hat off.

Where?  Everywhere I saw him talk about console crap was saying that it wasn't even going to be considered until the PC game was up to where they wanted it to be at least a year from now.

[hatesauce 99]

I for one thought the OP's main post was negative and all conspiracy theory. Of course there are nagging issues (100s of them) and in the month or so that the SA has been out we have already seen updates. This shit takes time and as the humble OP stated; he has worked on dev teams before. He should know that progress in pushing a title forward takes time and man power.

 

The post by the OP is completely biased and the reasoning is unfounded.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Says he works in development but cagey on what aspect...Sergey Titov is that you?

 

You're Winner

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

First... anyone who thinks that Rocket/DayZ weren't generating revenue for BI during development isn't thinking clearly.  DayZ created great revenue in the form of ArmA II/OA/CO sales that would never have been sold.  You can guess that DayZ was probably responsible for millions in sales even as a mod.

 

The revenue from the mod would have come in regardless of whether BI committed the team to the Standalone. So it's not exactly accurate to say that they were generating revenue by working on the Standalone. The revenue was coming from the mod, not the work they were doing the past 18 months.

 

In fact, their decision to take the team OFF the mod and have them focus on the Standalone even though the mod was generating revenue for them is fantastic evidence that they weren't in it for quick cash. Quick cash would have come from continuing to push the mod hard or moving it to ARMA 3 which sells for $59.99.

[Awruk 216]

OP must be crazy posting stuff like that on a forum full of fanboys ready to die for DeanZ.

[jovlon 32]

Once again for the fanboys and trolls. Part of the reason that I feel like there is cause of concern is because the dev team has given rather ambitious goals to have so much implemented within a six month time frame. These are old tired claims by those who are afraid of having a legitimate discussion. 

[Sweendawg 37]

I'd like to point out one simple thing: just look at arma 3.

same exact thing. game is'nt finished yet.

they promised release in october, gained a shitload of money from the arma 2 oa sellout (thanks to dayz) but they realized that there was no campaign yet in JUNE.

please tell me how the hell people still beliave in bohemia...

still waiting for jets. still waiting for campaign. still waiting to performance fixes. still waiting for multiplayer working. and i'm still hearing in my head the voices of the beloved fanboys that screams in my ears

"IIIIIIITTTTSSSS AAAAN AAAAALLLPHHHHAAAAA!!!1!1!!!"

Funny there are JETS in arma 3 ....

[hatesauce 99]

Regardless of fanboys and trolls, I can honestly say I got my $30 worth of entertainment already. Stop crying and trying to spread rumors with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Edited January 28, 2014 by hatesauce

[fitzee 248]

Once again for the fanboys and trolls. Part of the reason that I feel like there is cause of concern is because the dev team has given rather ambitious goals to have so much implemented within a six month time frame. These are old tired claims by those who are afraid of having a legitimate discussion. 

 

Funny. A guy who claims to be a game developer is going to call gamers fanboys.

 

C'mon, be honest, I'm guessing that "Part of the reason that I feel like there is cause of concern is because" your an adolescent who feels all butthurt because you don't have vehicles in the game yet.

 

Regards.

[jovlon 32]

My perspective is not your perspective. I'm coming at it from that of somebody who has worked within the industry. Most of you seem to come from it purely as players. But that is why I wanted to start a legitimate discussion.

 

I've had the pleasure of working within the indie process and the conglomerate process as I like to call it. My favorite experience was working on an indie team and developing from the ground up. We spent nearly everything that we collectively had and a few years of time to develop an in-house engine from the ground up. We then gained a great community before our company, software, and essentially our employees were bought out by the major corporation (I can't call them by name for legal reasons). So to say that I don't know trends or innovative ways to develop a game and generate buzz and revenue is laughable. 

 

But I'm coming from that perspective. And therefore I'm allowed to raise concerns because once you go through it and you know the tales of others going through these things you see the signs. I attempted to start a conversation about these concerns and the direction of development.

 

Yet you fanboys and trolls treat Dean and this game as if he is GOD and it the Bible. Whether you believe in GOD and the Bible, shouldn't there be legitimate discussion about these things? The answer apparently is no. You're going to thump the bible as hard as you can to anybody that has a different perspective and therefore fresh concerns that you may not have thought of.

[jovlon 32]

Funny. A guy who claims to be a game developer is going to call gamers fanboys.

 

C'mon, be honest, I'm guessing that "Part of the reason that I feel like there is cause of concern is because" your an adolescent who feels all butthurt because you don't have vehicles in the game yet.

 

Regards.

 

You have a big mouth so what are your credentials? What perspective are you coming from? A gamer who has never developed a day in his life? Or maybe you developed a flash based Mario game? If you fail to get that obvious joke (I'm sure you fail) my case is made. PhillyT doesn't at the surface seem to be a developer or be in the industry but he made a two valid points. Two that I agree with. 

 

1) The game at it's current version with it's current devoted fans is still worth $30.

 

As much as I dislike you trolls and fanboys because you've added nothing to the discussion, I think that because you so fiercely argue against any and everybody that attempts to have a legitimate discussion that the game in it's current version will remain fun to play. There's little to no chance that you will ever stop playing. And I can appreciate that.

 

2) Other developers, such as his friend, have had similar concerns. And that's because we have a completely different perspective than most of you. We see the things that you don't because we work within this industry. Just as I'm sure that it's far easier for you guys to simply enjoy the game for what it is currently.

 

 

And now the fanboys are attempting to change the focus of a should be discussion to something of how it was only $30. Typical of one who tries to change the talking point rather than simply focus on the topic at hand. 

[weedmasta 784]

I smell a bit of jealousy here. I also do not understand why you are insisting on not telling us what your actual job was, developing these "games" you keep talking about. How do you expect to start a legitimate discussion when the majority of your claims are not legitimate to begin with?

Edited January 28, 2014 by weedmasta

[hatesauce 99]

WarZ sucked ass and so did all of its devs....lets see what this reels in.

[OrLoK 16190]

Hello there

 

No more fanbois and trolls comments please.

 

You deride other folks comments but you make those three spurious claims in your original post, which does make it hard to take you seriously.

 

And not expecting fans of the game on their official forum is rather silly.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Pandema 352]

Y'know, you keep saying you've worked in game development before but you've never once cited a project you've taken part in.

 

Care to share any of them?

[jovlon 32]

Hello there

 

No more fanbois and trolls comments please.

 

You deride other folks comments but you make those three spurious claims in your original post, which does make it hard to take you seriously.

 

And not expecting fans of the game on their official forum is rather silly.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

There have been some fans who simply chose to pm me to stay away from the craziness and some who have posted here. But they had legitimate things to make. Points to make. And I appreciated them. 

 

The original goal for this was this:

 

To offer a perspective on what I and other developers are seeing and discussing. And what we're seeing and discussing is internal mismanagement of a game that has tremendous potential to be so many different things. While we don't agree what it will become, we have all agreed that from our own experiences and perspectives that something is off about this development process. Yet there has been a refusal to even discuss that there is even a possibility that this is happening and that honestly saddens me. 

 

And I personally wanted to hear from other perspectives about this. 

 

To us the timeline offered mixed with the behavior simply doesn't add up to what they've said they aspire to do with this game. I'm not downing them for taking time off and being a small team. 

 

I'm saying that given the size of their team, the relaxed approach that they're taking, and the rather ambitious timeline that they've laid out we simply don't think that they could meet those goals without losing sight of other important gameplay elements. At this point most developers that I've talked to and I feel as if there isn't a strong focus on implementing what should be implemented within Early Access and then Alpha. We'd be surprised and awestruck if they made it to what a beta should be after a year (just because it's called beta doesn't make it a beta). 

 

Posters are acting as if I've set this timeline for them and I want them to follow it when they claim that I've said that the game isn't being developed quickly enough. I want just the opposite. For them to take more time so that they can focus on things that may not make the player base jump for you but that will improve the game's "playability". That's what EAA and Alpha is supposed to be. That's why so many titles release it to such a small player base. 

 

To say that I shouldn't be concerned that they decided to not enter crunch time before an update that wasn't 100% ready to be rolled out is not something that I understand. I voiced my concerns based on a lot of discussion with those that have a similar perspective (that being of a game developers) only to be told by the fanboys and trolls that I'm not allowed to have those concerns. 

 

There's been excuse after excuse made all aimed at telling me that I'm not allowed to have concerns. Someone said that a year from now they'll revisit this thread to see if my concerns were legitimate. And I suppose that that's all that we can do. So I'm so sorry for questioning your almighty GOD and your bible. But that's all I did. Question it. 

[fitzee 248]

OP your right I'm no game developer, but I have no doubt that you aren't either. If you were why would you be wasting your time trying to derail this game. You say your trying to have a valid discussion, sigh, read your opening post, there isn't really anything valid about it. Looks like you just want to complain that there isn't vehicles yet.

 

I tried to explain a little of what I know about Bohemia to you, because you obviously don't know anything about them, and you dismissed me with the fanboys and trolls. The way I see it, there isn't anything valid about you.

 

Flash based mario game :lol: funny stuff, as I said your right I'm no game developer. I have been making addons/mods for games since 1998, but being just a hobbyist 3d modeller, I definitely wouldn't call my self a dev.

 

Since you are so butthurt about the direction DayZ SA is taking why not just cut your losses and bugger off, instead of trying to convince the people that like it that they shouldn't.

 

Regards.