The Campaign for Iron Sight Zoom

[shane21022 (DayZ) 3]

I agree fix this, we need the zoom

[SFRGaming 718]

OR

 

Wait til we get Multi-core and Multi-GPU support, as well as hyperthreading support, and LOTS of optimization.

 

Then we can get CORRECT scope zoom done the right way:

[gibonez 3633]

OR

 

Wait til we get Multi-core and Multi-GPU support, as well as hyperthreading support, and LOTS of optimization.

 

Then we can get CORRECT scope zoom done the right way:

 

Yea then peoples performance will go from 30 fps to 10 when aiming.

 

I say if the weapon has any magnification at all, make the gun a 2d scope like the LRS but make sure it has the correct zoom amount.

 

The pu scope and acog would be better as 2d scopes with the correct zoom amount.

[pilgrim* 3514]

iron sight zoom?

is it realistic?

 

nope.

 

zoom on scopes is realistic.

 

Is being able to move your eyeballs from side to side without moving your head ... realistic ?

 

LOL

 

Well, that's one thing you can't do in the game, that should cheer you up.

You ever noticed you are playing on a flat screen a couple of feet wide, and there is NOT a real world in there?

 

- and when you're playing, I bet you can see both sides of the room outside the screen too...

 

ALL the arguments are in the thread, and in other threads... thre is not only a 'zoom in' <+key>, there is also a 'zoom out' <-key>

they usd to call it 'battle view'

 

you ever focussed both your eyes on something to really concentrate on it?

etc etc etc etc

 

IRON SIGHT ZOOM  - YES

 

xx

Edited April 7, 2014 by pilgrim

[AryanBoogeyman 185]

Baffling to me why they would change this from ARMA 2...

[SFRGaming 718]

Yea then peoples performance will go from 30 fps to 10 when aiming.

 

I say if the weapon has any magnification at all, make the gun a 2d scope like the LRS but make sure it has the correct zoom amount.

 

The pu scope and acog would be better as 2d scopes with the correct zoom amount.

Did you honestly COMPLETELY miss where I said, after lots of support for modern hardware and optimization?

[pilgrim* 3514]

A story with a moral maybe to do with Iron Sight Zoom, and what is real and artificial about the game.
I hope players can figure it out.

[For Gews]

This little tale has been around since well before 400 BCE

Drona was a famous warrior and teacher.

Drona set up a wooden bird in a tree across the river, and asked the princes to shoot it by striking its eye.
When Prince Yudisthira bent his bow to shoot, Drona asked him what he saw.
Yudisthira replied that he saw his brothers, he saw Drona, the river, the forest, the tree and the bird.
Drona considered that Yudisthira would fail and asked another prince to step forward.
Each brother, about to shoot, said that he saw the river and the forest, the tree, and the bird.
Drona was disappointed with them all.

But when Arjuna stepped up and drew his arrow and aimed, Drona asked him what he saw.
Arjuna could not reply. Drona asked him again.
Arjuna told Drona that he saw only the eye of the bird.

 

xx

Edited April 7, 2014 by pilgrim

[irishroy 1347]

 

WHY DOES A NON-MAGNIFIED RED DOT MAGNIFY?

 

It doesn't!

 

We got some deep meaning here

[gibonez 3633]

Did you honestly COMPLETELY miss where I said, after lots of support for modern hardware and optimization?

That doesn't mean anything you still have to render the scene twice vs just once with 2d scopes.

[Windex 13]

iron sight zoom?

is it realistic?

 

nope.

 

 

It is due to the limitations of how FPS games are displayed on monitors.  Read my post again.    

 

Our current irons are decidedly unrealistic, because it's like aiming the rifle with your head quite a ways back from the sights.   Only an idiot aims like that.

 

The "zoomed in" irons aren't zoomed in; they're normal.   It's the regular first/third person view that is zoomed out.

[SFRGaming 718]

That doesn't mean anything you still have to render the scene twice vs just once with 2d scopes.

Rendering twice isn't a problem for the Engine's mechanics. The problem with rendering twice right now is the game runs at EXTREMELY low frames and rendering twice would amplify the low frames causing terrible performance. A lot of the games that have the 3D scopes (that render twice as shown in Insurgency or Red Orchestra) run on the Source engine, which can be ran by a toaster so can take the double render with ease.

 

I think rocket should go the Insurgency way and make the detail you view through the scope changeable so if you have a basic home PC that runs DayZ okay-ishly but dies when you double render, you can change the graphics within the scope. Majority of people that play this game have a quad core and can benefit GREATLY from multi-core support.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Shadow134

[Windex 13]

Performance and 3d vs non-3d scopes should be a non-issue.   Games have been doing that for a long time.

[pilgrim* 3514]

It is due to the limitations of how FPS games are displayed on monitors.  Read my post again.    

 

Our current irons are decidedly unrealistic, because it's like aiming the rifle with your head quite a ways back from the sights.   Only an idiot aims like that.

 

The "zoomed in" irons aren't zoomed in; they're normal.   It's the regular first/third person view that is zoomed out.

 

REAL WORLD:

In its simplest form, the gun sight is a small piece of iron at the end of the barrel, allowing the shooter to line up the sight with the target. Of course, doing this accurately is a difficult task for the human eye. The eye cannot focus on a distant object and a close object at the same time.

FLAT SCREEN COMPUTER GAME:

On a flat screen the 'distant object' and the 'close object' are exactly the same distance from the eye.

PROBLEM:

How can the programmers make the player think that he is using a 'close object' to aim at a 'distant object'? We know that ANY method that gives this impression is false. We must trick the player into an ILLUSION that he is aiming at a distant object. Of course the flat 2D screen is only a few dozen centimeters from the player's eyes, so he cannot possibly see an object 200 meters behind his screen.

WHICH ILLUSIONS ARE MOST CONVINCING ?

To help create this completely false imitation of depth-sight aiming, it is useful to look at the process that takes place in the real world when a shooter aims at a target that is really 200 meters from his gun sight.

Remember that the human eye CAN NOT focus on the gunsight close to the eye, and the target far from the eye, at the same time. It is mechanically (biologically) impossible for the human eye to do that.

So what happens when a shooter in the real world  takes aim at a distant object? What does he really SEE, and what happens in his MIND?

 

Let's try to imitate THAT. I think Gews, and also Windex above, and the many other Iron Sight Zoom supporters have it right. To me it has the MENTAL FEELING and PHYSICAL SENSATION of aiming an iron sight rifle. I can't suggest a better way of imitating that, in a flat screen game.

 

And its noticable that using an optical zoom in the real world is a completely different sensation to iron sights. The optical zoom 'magnification' dosn't have much to do with what it feels like to aim with a scope.

 

Iron Sight Zoom was RIGHT for the game.

Gews explains it perfectly at the top of this thread.

It's got nothing to do with rendering or FPS, etc, that's a silly argument.

Put it back.

Edited April 9, 2014 by pilgrim

[gibonez 3633]

Performance and 3d vs non-3d scopes should be a non-issue.   Games have been doing that for a long time.

yea and everytime it has to render the game twice.

 

It does't matter if a game is done today or 100 years from now with 3d scopes to do it correctly you have to render the image 2 times and unless you reduce the graphics when you are aiming you will have substantial frame drops.

 

Even Red orchestra 2 a relatively undemanding game drops peoples frames in half when aiming.

 

I would prefer the option for 2d scopes the loss of performance simply isnt worth it for me for what little 3d scopes add.

[Windex 13]

PROBLEM:

How can the programmers make the player think that he is using a 'close object' to aim at a 'distant object'? We know that ANY method that gives this impression is false. We must trick the player into an ILLUSION that he is aiming at a distant object. Of course the flat 2D screen is only a few dozen centimeters from the player's eyes, so he cannot possibly see an object 200 meters behind his screen.

 

I actually like how the original Operation Flashpoint handled a lot of the irons.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing proper focus on the front sight post when using the "hold breath" key for seriously aimed shots.   With a pistol, pretty much everything other than the front sight should be out of focus.  With a rifle you get the same thing, but to a lesser extent due to the longer sight radius.    What we have in-game is pretty much nothing like actually aiming a firearm with irons.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Windex

[virgiltracy 34]

Remove zoom please.

[pilgrim* 3514]

yea and everytime it has to render the game twice.

 

It does't matter if a game is done today or 100 years from now with 3d scopes to do it correctly you have to render the image 2 times and unless you reduce the graphics when you are aiming you will have substantial frame drops.

 

Even Red orchestra 2 a relatively undemanding game drops peoples frames in half when aiming.

 

I would prefer the option for 2d scopes the loss of performance simply isnt worth it for me for what little 3d scopes add.

 

I guess you have noticed:

 

When you are NOT aiming through anything at all

If you press the < + > key the whole game zooms in

If you press the < - > key the whole game zooms out

 

What does this all-day-and-every-day  zoom-in-zoom-out  have to do with wrecking the frame rate?

It was built into the game from the first, in ARMA and onwards.

Every press of those + and - keys, and the whole image has to be rendered TWICE, and that drops the FPS by HALF ??

OMG! And what about the "adjust view width" option !!!!

 

If you think this 'zooming' effect is destroying everyone's FPS - tell the Devs. Because they are off on the wrong track entirely.

How come no-one ever noticed this was the cause of all those FPS problems ?

 

xx pilgrim

 

Listen to what Gews says in OP ( post#1and post#23 ) about ONE effect in the game at just ONE moment in the game

he makes PERFECT SENSE

Edited April 9, 2014 by pilgrim

[Ratter (DayZ) 11]

I think that there should be some level of zooming to make it more realistic to be honest also accuracy of the weapons should be re worked too, being an ex soldier and also a Sappper so not infantry aswel (who wears glasses) you could relatively easily pick out and hit a staitionary standing target at 300m with iron sights without glasses on. It is hard to explain but when you look down iron sights your eyes are so focused on what little you can see through the little hole two inches from your eye that it is almoste like zooming. At the moment the view is more like when you are looking over the sights finding a target. Me and quite a lot of other non infantry soldiers find it easier and more accurate with iron sights than the British 4x equivelant to the ACOG. In game I think when you are zoomed in( looking down the sights) the sight picture should take up the majority of the screen with any thing out side the sights being out of focus making you fairly accurate at max range. Say 300m for m4. The view as it is now should be accurate up to 150m for m4 and free aim up to about 30m so clearing buildings. Plus the m4 iron sight picture needs changing IMO it looks shit without the carry handle and aperture.

I

[Ratter (DayZ) 11]

To add to my above post if you have attachments sights there should be no zoom unless it's a variable scope.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I guess you have noticed:

 

When you are NOT aiming through anything at all

If you press the < + > key the whole game zooms in

If you press the < - > key the whole game zooms out

 

What does this all-day-and-every-day  zoom-in-zoom-out  have to do with wrecking the frame rate?

It was built into the game from the first, in ARMA and onwards.

Every press of those + and - keys, and the whole image has to be rendered TWICE, and that drops the FPS by HALF ??

OMG! And what about the "adjust view width" option !!!!

 

If you think this 'zooming' effect is destroying everyone's FPS - tell the Devs. Because they are off on the wrong track entirely.

How come no-one ever noticed this was the cause of all those FPS problems ?

 

xx pilgrim

 

Listen to what Gews says in OP ( post#1and post#23 ) about ONE effect in the game at just ONE moment in the game

he makes PERFECT SENSE

What the hell you're talking about? :O

[pilgrim* 3514]

What the hell you're talking about? :o

 

Work it out dude

 

I guess you know about the SA controls and the presets? If you don't, ask someone, there are plenty of sites and threads and explanations.

 

Then start at the beginning of this thread and read it. Read Gews. Check out gibonez's comments.

Read what Ratter just said above here.

Try and understand the difference between a flat screen and the real world.

When you feel like you've got a grip on the subject

Then make a comment.

 

Think first. It would be a plus if the comment were useful.

 

Enjoy

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Windex and Gibonez weren't even talking about zooming . They talked about 3D scopes. I don't know did you quote wrong post or what because your post doesn't have anything to do what you quoted.

I have grip on the zoom subject and I pretty much agree wit Gews like I said in some page.

[KingOfTime 267]

I actually like how the original Operation Flashpoint handled a lot of the irons.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing proper focus on the front sight post when using the "hold breath" key for seriously aimed shots.   With a pistol, pretty much everything other than the front sight should be out of focus.  With a rifle you get the same thing, but to a lesser extent due to the longer sight radius.    What we have in-game is pretty much nothing like actually aiming a firearm with irons.

I've never used the sights on a pistol when shooting irl....just look at where you want to hit, and the bullet goes there every time. I look at the target, not the gun. I dont think anything should be out of focus when using a pistol in game.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Windex and Gibonez weren't even talking about zooming . They talked about 3D scopes. I don't know did you quote wrong post or what because your post doesn't have anything to do what you quoted.

I have grip on the zoom subject and I pretty much agree wit Gews like I said in some page.

 

OH - so we're talking about 3D scopes that DONT zoom, so when you use them  'the game"  has to be rendered twice ?

 

I See  .... hmmm... excuse my naive mistake.

 

I just noticed when you press <+> the whole screen view 'zooms' in, and when you press <-> the view 'zooms' out, it's the SAME when your character has nothing in his hands, or with a spade in his hands - anything or nothing - EXCEPT when you are looking over an iron sight. So where is the logic in that?

 

Note - of course you can only see things in 3D in the real world when you are looking at the object with 2 eyes. In the real world - (try it) - any monocular scope can only show you a 2D image. AND of course, on the game screen EVERYTHING is in 2D... plenty of game stuff pretends to show you 3D but it does NOT.

 

A real world '3D scope' (are you sure that's the right description?) has to have a binocular, not monocular optic, and a Fresnel-style rangefinder apparatus built in. In fact this IS a rangefinder (as used in focus-changing cameras, which only have a single focal plane). Plus, to be a gun scope our '3D' scope also has cross hairs, and probably other high-tech automisms depending what state-of-the-art we're talking about. A monocular scope, unless you focus it by hand)  has to be astigmatic (that means everything is in focus from zero to infinity), and the image is in 2D. Fact remains, you as a human being cannot see 3D with one eye in the real world, and you can't see 3D in the game at all because there is only an illusion of 3D. So the ILLUSION is what is important for game immersion.

 

Hope this is not very boring: As a simple exercise, just a 1 minute demo, , stand in front of a tree in the game, then without moving your character, move your own head from left side to right side of the screen, look at the screen from all angles - you just can't see anything different behind that tree. There is NO parallax effect. The stuff behind the tree is NOT further away, it is just designed to look like it is when your character moves. But try the same thing in real life, you can estimate by moving your head just a couple of inches how far away any object is. You have stereo vision (you have a built-in human biological range-finder) plus you have experience and a whole high-power complex mental processing unit working for you. 

 

Anyway, the ILLUSION is what is important for game immersion. That little zoom-in when you 'concentrated' and 'held your breath' worked VERY nicely.

 

Have some beans and let's move right along.

 

Bring back Iron Scope Zoom Please

We agree on that.

 

xx pilgrim

Edited April 11, 2014 by pilgrim

[gibonez 3633]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23A606rGKSQ

 

YAY!!!!