We NEED some way to identify heros and bandits.

[PityLovesYou 7]

But I haven't pulled the trigger or actually engaged with you in any way. Without a system built into the game's core to identify when players are doing things that aren't friendly, such as aiming at another individual, either you're going to get killed or going to lose humanity in self defense.

 

 

 

 Without a system built into the game's core to identify when players are doing things that aren't friendly, such as aiming at another individual, either you're going to get killed or going to lose humanity in self defense.

 

 

 Without a system built 

 

 

 into the game's core

 

 

the game's core

They can't even stop grass from clipping through floorboards, you want them to put a sophisticated system for people who are going to get upset over dying in an open world game with clear PvP aspects?

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

But I haven't pulled the trigger or actually engaged with you in any way. Without a system built into the game's core to identify when players are doing things that aren't friendly, such as aiming at another individual, either you're going to get killed or going to lose humanity in self defense.

 

Don't expect a response. They can never answer this question reasonably because it breaks their entire system. Or, they'll flail around trying to come up with some convoluted and impossibly-complex to implement "aggression detection system" of some kind which is basically a pipe dream.

 

There are a ton of potential situations that are downright impossible for the game engine to respond to when trying to decide who is "good" or "evil."

 

What if someone shoots at a friend of mine and misses, then I shoot him and kill him? I'm credited with a "murder" and lose humanity for defending the life of my innocent friend.

 

Forget firing, what if someone is just robbing my friend or threatening him and I come around the corner and perforate his face with my shotgun? Again, I've got a "murder" to my name just for saving the day.

 

What if I meet a group of five players all traveling together as a group? The leader is a bandit, but his four friends are "neutral" because they just started or haven't scored as many kills. The bandit opens fire, and I return fire successfully killing the entire group? I now have one bandit kill and four "murders" to my name, essentially spoiling my humanity for the unforgivable sin of surviving an unprovoked attack.

 

What if a group of players steals one of my vehicles that I have worked hard to repair? They could even have positive humanity, but they decide they want my truck and jump in it and drive away. There's no concept of ownership in DayZ so my choices are basically let them have my truck for free, or open fire destroying the vehicle and getting credited with an entire family's worth of "murders" simply for defending my property rights. My humanity would be tanked for days just for trying to keep what's rightfully mine.

 

The list goes on and on and on. There is simply no way for the game engine to sort out all of the impossibly complex situations that can arise in the game and this will only become more true as more and more complex mechanics come online.

 

This is why any automated "humanity" system is inherently flawed. Thankfully Dean understands this. If you can dig up the things he said about the bandit skin system when it was added, he basically said he didn't like it because it was too stupid to really be useful (which is why he removed it for a large portion of the mod), but he felt eventually that it was "better than nothing." He has always talked about his desire to put the power of judgment and punishment in the hands of players which is why I'm confident we won't be seeing any simplistic "skinning" system in the Standalone but something much more sophisticated that relies on players' own powers of observation and judgment rather than some magical Santa Claus running around telling everyone who is on the naughty list.

Edited January 24, 2014 by ZedsDeadBaby

[noto 6]

Not the be that guy, but you're always going to have pirates attempting to impersonate the trusted in order to screw over those that they deem as worthy.


What could be done, however, is a Karma system. Indicators based on player interactions and likelihood to either defend oneself, or to out-right start killing without mercy.

Such an indicator would let you know of a players in-game 'history'. However, you still would not be safe from moles and avid players that are determines to undermine a trusted group and bring it down. Then, all a player would have to do is carefully orchestrate his/her decisions so that the individual may then be trusted and placed into the perspective position that the alleged mole is after. Once in that position, say, a sniper in a trusted squad with no one else near, the sniper can then claim he's been shot and killed while killing the entire squad himself.


Or pherhaps it's just me that comes up with these disatrous scenarios...But hell. if people are capable of Nazi Germany and turning primal in a damn video game to the point that we treat our interactions to the level of reality, i'm sure we'd find some people purely dedicated to backlashing a trusted community just to take it down.

All in all, light vs dark no matter which way you look at it; it's just more obvious currently.

[1S1K-Airborne 148]

Everyone is a bandit

 

Yep, that's exactly the problem.  90% plus of the population is bandits.  There is no balance, it's 90% bandit, and 10% bullet sponge hero.

 

 

And ZedsDeadBaby, thanks for posting additional times.  Helping keep the topic alive and well!  :)

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Yep, that's exactly the problem.  90% plus of the population is bandits.  There is no balance, it's 90% bandit, and 10% bullet sponge hero.

 

Same claim people made over and over again during the mod. Then the team published the actual statistics and turned out 18% of the players were bandits.

 

 

And ZedsDeadBaby, thanks for posting additional times.  Helping keep the topic alive and well!   :)

 

So long as this is the quality of the responses you have to the perfectly legitimate issues I raise with your idea, I'm happy to draw attention to the thread. Astute readers will have no problem recognizing that you're actively dodging my criticisms in favor of vapid quips like this.

[Blaaaaaaag 75]

And what if I bump into someone from surprise in military building?

 

Should I press LMB or caps lock and says: "Friendly?"

 

Not really relevent to the rest of the discussion, but the answer to that question is this:

 

No. If you bump into someone in a military building, that's a hard contact and a battle will ensue. One of you will probably die. That's sort of already a rule that should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's ever bumped into other players at an airfield. That's where squads go for pvp, if you're there, then you're looking for trouble. If you're doing it right, you won't be surprised by the presence of another player in close quarters like that anyway, you'll have had that player called out by your squadmate who was watching the windows of the building for a few minutes before you even approached it. And you'll be iron-sighting and leaning your corners on the way in. The only fire that you'll experience that will surprise you will come from unseen players, 50+ metres out, who managed to sneak that close.

[1S1K-Airborne 148]

Same claim people made over and over again during the mod. Then the team published the actual statistics and turned out 18% of the players were bandits.

 

So it would stand to reason that 18% of the Standalone players are bandits as well.  Well screw me I have some bad luck then!  I run into that 18% about 95% of the time.  Good job epic fail dayz statictics guy......lol

 

So long as this is the quality of the responses you have to the perfectly legitimate issues I raise with your idea, I'm happy to draw attention to the thread. Astute readers will have no problem recognizing that you're actively dodging my criticisms in favor of vapid quips like this.

 

Yeah, that last one was a vapid quip.  It cited your own math and choked it to death with more math.

[rangerbarlow@gmail.com 22]

It's a survival game as close to real life as possible, bad guys don't walk around with a banner saying I suck at life but it would be nice to have a reward system for being a good guy, then again, this isn't COD.

[Vicco 123]

Same claim people made over and over again during the mod. Then the team published the actual statistics and turned out 18% of the players were bandits.

I'd like to see a cite on that. Find it hard to believe.

[minime1000 78]

This is still going? some people are really bad at this game if they "NEED" help figuring out whos a bandit or not.

I shoot absolutely everyone on sight so doesn't really matter to me but names popping up really close wouldn't be bad.

[thelonewarrior 886]

I'll say it again

No system will work

I'm one of the good guys and would have a bandit skin when starting a new private hive in the mod, probably in under an hour or 2

Just from defending myself and trying to stop bandits in the cities who mostly had survivor skins because they join a server, kill a few and never come back

I was being punished with a bandit skin for helping people, bandit skins restrict people like me from helping others

I finnaly lost it after weeks of trying only to run into 2 survivors killing on the coast and got it right back

The system doest work, I've helped a lot more people in the stabdalone because I have no worry about being labelled a bandit for killing someone who is up to something dodgy

If they bring back a bandit skin, I'll probably not play the stanalone again as I'd have it all the time for trying to do good

Edited January 24, 2014 by Regulator Lone Warrior

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

A magic skin (well, clothing) that appears upon several kills would not be that realistic, same as an artificial karma system.

 

What would help greatly is group ID, in whatever way. Not karma ID.

 

More clothing and / or squad.xml. We'll get more clothing eventually. So ..

 

... squad.xml please? :P

[CMoth 4]

I just try to find the gear that camo the best. Right now that's the TTsKO jacket (which has 6 storage spots in stead of 4) and pants. I've switched from a ballistic helmet to one of the new berets but, since they don't provide the same ballistic protection why wouldn't I wear a helmet? If they would come out with the belt system like in the mod it would open up more choices in clothing and appearance. I'd happily stick with a hoodie if I had enough places to store essential gear other than a stupid shirt pocket.

 

I don't KOS as a general rule but have been ganked so much in DayZ that it's almost stupid not to unless you're in a group with superior numbers. In fact, I usually play a survivalist and try my best to avoid other players. Turning the other way just gets me shot at an angle. In all the time I've been playing the mod and now the standalone I've met a person who didn't immediately try to kill me exactly 10 times or so. Almost all of them were when there were only two of us on the server and would team up out of convenience. In standalone it happened once. Reason that it happened? I was fully geared and he didn't have a weapon. I chose not to KOS the guy and helped him out. Luckily he turned out NOT to be a complete wank. True "friendlies" seem to only happen on PVE only servers with AI combatants. 

 

Right now I don't think there is a game mechanic requiring a gas mask but certain zones in the future may require one to lessen risk of certain infections.

 

They need a broader variety of decent equipment / uniforms that would at least give the option of being able to tell a teammate from NOT a teammate.

[yessaul robinovich 42]

Including me, I killed about 15 armed guys (bandits? who knows...) today and a few last night, mainly in Electro, trying to pass through, pick up a good set of gear and head to Cherno. I did it out of shear boredom. In my normal playstyle, no one would have died. Thing is, I don't mind killing the PVP'ers, but i do not want to kill the guy exploring/admiring the view and playing realistically, as if they were there. Nor do i want to kill the 2 guys in the armed group of four i killed last night if they aren't PVP'ers, splitting them up, and making them wait for others etc.

 

thing is, though, everyone is a pvp'er under the right circumstances. (when their life is perceived to be in danger). no-one is a pvp'er under the wrong circumstances (when they're outmanned, unarmed..).. one can make all kinds of judgements in the moment to try and protect oneself - assuming anyone wearing camo is trying to kill them, assuming that anyone wearing a mask is hostile, assuming anyone using a mosin LR scope is a bambi-killing sniper dreaming of freshly spawned corpses..and so on..and so on.. none of these are effective ways of figuring out who a bandit is. but, you know, none of these were effective under the mod, where people routinely exploited the laughable morality system. and thats the thing about it.. if there are systems, they will be gamed. the only way to identify things you need is the way you currently reason. it won't be foolproof - you may kill someone who was not looking to kill you. alternately you may spare someone who will shoot you in the back. these are educational experiences that are as much a part of the idea of what dayz is as the titular zombies. attempting to design accounting for morality is folly for the same reason as gearing up on an empty server to go pvp when you're set - you're cheating yourself out of the experience of what this game is actually about, of what separates it from others. largely of what the imitators have been unable to replicate..

[dirtybaz 5]

I haven't read every post, and I appreciate what OP is trying to say, but DayZ isn't technically a game; it's a social experiment.  You can't balance human nature, and you can't penalise people for killing other people in a game about survival. 

 

The fact that you CAN'T balance the game is the exciting part!  Think about when the game is fully implemented.  Groups of heros will naturally develop.  They will create safe zones to help decent lone-wolfs survive.  They might wear similar clothes to identify themselves.  Full clans of heros will develope, or maybe even a fully functioning traders or medics guild! 

 

Likewise there will be bandit squads roaming the wilderness, and bandit areas on the map that are never safe.  The natural fight between heros and bandits will always be there - the poor lonewolfs either need to pick a side, or stay in the forrest with their bow and arrow and box of matches. 

[komadose 190]

yes, because in real life bandits also wear an arm tag that says "bandit" right?

[Scootch 19]

Perhaps something more subtle would work... Maybe if you're a hero you can roll up your sleeves on certain shirts. ex check shirts.  Bandits could flip up the hood on say the hoodies.  I'd stress that It would be a CHOICE and not something you'd be forced to do.  More of a badge that one could chose to wear if they wanted.

 

 

Sorry if this idea was already stated.  I didn't read all 19 pages of thread.

[Tuktanuk 4]

 

 

"I really LOVE that Rocket's videos all have a bunch of friendly players that he meets in a private locked server.....lol  I would love it even more if he went into a full public server and ran around Electro or Cherno for a couple of hours.  It would be a shit video and not a good advertisement for the game, because he'd get KOS'd over and over and over.  I would love to see Rocket getting chased for 20-30 minutes by some 12 year old with an axe."

 

 

 

 

 

 

QFT!! Love it!

 

Honestly. I trust no one. I lone wolf all the time.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Tuktanuk

[1S1K-Airborne 148]

I shoot absolutely everyone on sight so doesn't really matter to me but names popping up really close wouldn't be bad.

 

Some refreshing honesty!

 

I think the guys that say "I help everyone I can" are really lying because they don't want KOS to end or anything to diminish it.

[Timecharge 28]

I think that the Hero/Bandit clothing should stay the exact same way it is now, as many posts have stated before this one in real life you don't automatically know nor are you usually given any settle warning about who are the bandits and who aren't.

 

When walking up to people if you don't want to get shot take your gun out first and shoot them if they try to take theirs out. 

 

Don't trust people just because they say they are friendly and don't turn your back to them until you are a safe distance away and in a full sprint.

[komadose 190]

Perhaps something more subtle would work... Maybe if you're a hero you can roll up your sleeves on certain shirts. ex check shirts.  Bandits could flip up the hood on say the hoodies.  I'd stress that It would be a CHOICE and not something you'd be forced to do.  More of a badge that one could chose to wear if they wanted.

 

 

Sorry if this idea was already stated.  I didn't read all 19 pages of thread.

what if i roll up my sleeves and still shoot you in the face?

[1S1K-Airborne 148]

I haven't read every post, and I appreciate what OP is trying to say, but DayZ isn't technically a game; it's a social experiment.  You can't balance human nature, and you can't penalise people for killing other people in a game about survival. 

 

The fact that you CAN'T balance the game is the exciting part!  Think about when the game is fully implemented.  Groups of heros will naturally develop.  They will create safe zones to help decent lone-wolfs survive.  They might wear similar clothes to identify themselves.  Full clans of heros will develope, or maybe even a fully functioning traders or medics guild! 

 

Likewise there will be bandit squads roaming the wilderness, and bandit areas on the map that are never safe.  The natural fight between heros and bandits will always be there - the poor lonewolfs either need to pick a side, or stay in the forrest with their bow and arrow and box of matches. 

 

There is no balance.  It's 90% bandit right now.  Everyone shoots everyone, all the time.

 

There's no ability for Heros to create safe areas for bambis to loot.  90% of the bambis are bandits, and will kill the heros trying to protect them.  So you protect 1 bambi, then the next 9 decide when they find an axe, they're going to go axe you in the back of the head.

 

You can balance the system with an "effective" humanity system.  A lot of people are citing the mod, and that was not an effective humanity system.

 

An effective humanity system only counts player kills for humanity points, and MUST have a visual indicator of some type to separate hero / civ / bandit.

[1S1K-Airborne 148]

what if i roll up my sleeves and still shoot you in the face?

 

You can still do that with hero / civ / bandit armbands.  But if you're looking to be a hero, there's a high humanity penalty for killing another hero.

 

Bandits can feel free to continue to KOS their way to happiness.  But heros would avoid shooting other heros.

[Timecharge 28]

There is no balance.  It's 90% bandit right now.  Everyone shoots everyone, all the time.

 

There's no ability for Heros to create safe areas for bambis to loot.  90% of the bambis are bandits, and will kill the heros trying to protect them.  So you protect 1 bambi, then the next 9 decide when they find an axe, they're going to go axe you in the back of the head.

 

You can balance the system with an "effective" humanity system.  A lot of people are citing the mod, and that was not an effective humanity system.

 

An effective humanity system only counts player kills for humanity points, and MUST have a visual indicator of some type to separate hero / civ / bandit.

 

Not true, I have noticed a lot less KOSing when you aren't in Elektro, even in Elektro I have ran into 2 or 3 fully geared guys who wanted nothing to do with me and my splitting axe (I killed one of them and one of them even asked if i needed anything that he could give me). Outside of Elektro only about 50% of the people I run into want to kill me. 

 

edit: stay away from military bases if you don't want to get KOS'd

Edited January 24, 2014 by Timecharge

[komadose 190]

There is no balance.  It's 90% bandit right now.  Everyone shoots everyone, all the time.

 

There's no ability for Heros to create safe areas for bambis to loot.  90% of the bambis are bandits, and will kill the heros trying to protect them.  So you protect 1 bambi, then the next 9 decide when they find an axe, they're going to go axe you in the back of the head.

 

You can balance the system with an "effective" humanity system.  A lot of people are citing the mod, and that was not an effective humanity system.

 

An effective humanity system only counts player kills for humanity points, and MUST have a visual indicator of some type to separate hero / civ / bandit.

guess why so much "bandits"? because PvP is currently the only challenge in this game. no reason to team up with anyone. those zombies are not a threat. even if you don't have a weapon.

 

if the environment would be more hostile, people would like to play more as a team.