Fit to Fight, to stop overuse of firearms, maybe helping Kos

[Karmaterror 982]

Ok so this is an idea that may help with Kos but thats not the reason i thought of it. It was an idea i had for the mod, to make it harder to clear out zeds with guns. But seeing some of the Kos discussions, it could also be used for that aswell. 

 

The idea is realistic effects from over/prolonged use of firearms. Things like...

 

Long range rifles - Firing many shots from a long range rifle would eventually (to be balanced out) causes some messages to apper, along with some negative side effects.

 

"My shoulder aches" Aiming dispersal increased by 5%

"I feel a stabbing pain in my shoulder" Aiming dipersal increased by 15%

"My shoulder feels broken" Aiming dispersal increased by 50%

 

The big jump at the end is to make players try to address the issue early. Letting it get very bad has a serious effect. Painkillers could be used to combat these and keep your guy fit to fight.

 

LMG's - This could also use the above, or for something different this...

 

"My forearm aches" same as above^

"I feel a sharp pain in my forearm" same again^

"I can bearly grip my gun" you guessed it...same again.

 

I think you get the idea now. Could be loads of statuses related to each firearm. This adds another consumable to gunplay, beyond ammo. While i think fitting with the game quite well. Bandits wouldnt just need a gun and bullets, but stuff to combat these effects. Also heros going for a zombie slaughter would have the same things to think about. 

 

Also they could go away over time themselfs, if ofc you didnt use a gun. 

 

Well.....have at it :)

[Korsbaek 1778]

Does your shoulder really start to hurt if you've shot a lot?

 

I recently saw a tribute video to Mr. Kalashnikov of a man firing around 700 shot's from an AK. He didn't show any signs of pain.

[gannon46 788]

Ok so this is an idea that may help with Kos but thats not the reason i thought of it. It was an idea i had for the mod, to make it harder to clear out zeds with guns. But seeing some of the Kos discussions, it could also be used for that aswell. 

 

The idea is realistic effects from over/prolonged use of firearms. Things like...

 

Long range rifles - Firing many shots from a long range rifle would eventually (to be balanced out) causes some messages to apper, along with some negative side effects.

 

"My shoulder aches" Aiming dispersal increased by 5%

"I feel a stabbing pain in my shoulder" Aiming dipersal increased by 15%

"My shoulder feels broken" Aiming dispersal increased by 50%

 

The big jump at the end is to make players try to address the issue early. Letting it get very bad has a serious effect. Painkillers could be used to combat these and keep your guy fit to fight.

 

LMG's - This could also use the above, or for something different this...

 

"My forearm aches" same as above^

"I feel a sharp pain in my forearm" same again^

"I can bearly grip my gun" you guessed it...same again.

 

I think you get the idea now. Could be loads of statuses related to each firearm. This adds another consumable to gunplay, beyond ammo. While i think fitting with the game quite well. Bandits wouldnt just need a gun and bullets, but stuff to combat these effects. Also heros going for a zombie slaughter would have the same things to think about. 

 

Also they could go away over time themselfs, if ofc you didnt use a gun. 

 

Well.....have at it :)

maybe if you shot a 12 gauage or something of a large caliber. i've shot an AR-15 all day before did'nt hurt my shoulder or anything the recoil is so low. and pistols hands might get a little raw but we have gloves in game. so i think this would have to be gun specific. i like the idea but i don't know how it could be balanced.

[soulfirez 901]

Ah how long does this take to effect you i have gone on week long hunting trips where i have fired countless times and never suffered any shoulder forarm effects (if anything my eyes starting getting blury from scoping all the time but i am old lol . Not an idea i like

 

Edit i travel to New Zealand to go duck hunting when in season and i dont suffer firing a 12 gauage all weekend or when i am clay shooting either and i am 40 and no longer in tip top physical shape.

Edited January 7, 2014 by SoulFirez

[silversx 75]

not sure about shooting but my shoulder does hurt after prolonged fapping...

[Karmaterror 982]

Does your shoulder really start to hurt if you've shot a lot?

 

I recently saw a tribute video to Mr. Kalashnikov of a man firing around 700 shot's from an AK. He didn't show any signs of pain.

 

He might of paid for that a bit in the morning lol. I havent fired many guns, but when i fired a farmers shotgun at thosse red disk things, i did have a bruise the next day and was a bit sore. Thats kinda where this idea came from :)

 

Also after bout 20 shots my forearm was very......very tired.

 

Im thinking onset would be quick, recovery naturally about 50% more than that. But if you have the painkiller supply you could fire from electro hill all day.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Karmaterror

[rah1290 1]

No gun except extremely large caliber aka .50 cal is going to cause an effect like this I have shot over 100 rounds through a 40in barrled Remington 870 express and never had a single problem

 

I should add however if you have not shot a gun or been taught how to properly handle one then yes the will bruise you but no more than say being punched by a girl lol If you snugged the butt up in your shoulder you should find yourself having no prob shooting all day with very little to no bruising

Edited January 7, 2014 by rah1290

[Karmaterror 982]

Hit quote instead of edit...facepalm 

Edited January 7, 2014 by Karmaterror

[soulfirez 901]

He might of paid for that a bit in the morning lol. I havent fired many guns, but when i fired a farmers shotgun at thosse red disk things, i did have a bruise the next day and was a bit sore. Thats kinda where this idea came from :)

 

Also after bout 20 shots my forearm was very......very tired.

 

Im thinking onset would be quick, recovery naturally about 50% more than that. But if you have the painkiller supply you could fire from electro hill all day.

You mean clay or skeet  shooting i can only put your pain down to not being experienced with said gun again i am old and i will spend the day clay shooting ( have my own trap go out back of the farm and have the missus sling them ) ill effects i suffer from far more than 20 shots  equals 0 maybe thats just me and my mates though ( and maybe they dont admit to this pain lol)

Edited January 7, 2014 by SoulFirez

[Karmaterror 982]

Il admit it lol....after hefting that shotty up from pointing at the floor so many times  my forearm really felt it. Thinking about it the shoulder stuff didnt effect me much while firing, just in the morning. The forearm thing was very noticable while acctually doing it. Maybe more that than shoulder effects. 

 

Pistols shouldnt really have any imo. But iv never fired a pistol so i wouldnt know :)

[soulfirez 901]

The only pain i get from pistol shooting ( i own 7 of them ) is some powder burns every now and then and burns to my chest when a shell is expelled and it lands inside my shirt( which is embarasing when ya dance like a girl for a second

[Ubernaut 297]

.22 and 5.56 caliber rifles have negligible recoil, though, with regard to hurting your tender newbie shoulder.

 

I can see how shotguns might cause this, necessitating painkillers if you're out there blasting away all day. Or, y'know, you could just wrap a couple rags around your buttstock. Not sure this is really a pronounced enough thing to be worth coding into the game.

 

Long guns sure do get heavy if you're toting them around for miles on end, though.

[Bakercompany86 347]

Does your shoulder really start to hurt if you've shot a lot?

 

I recently saw a tribute video to Mr. Kalashnikov of a man firing around 700 shot's from an AK. He didn't show any signs of pain.

 

I mean, I've had days where I've put hundreds upon hundreds of 30-06 through an M1 Garand without any ill effect.  A little sore the next morning maybe.  But nothing that would prevent me from shooting accurately.

[knifeparty 109]

I own both an M4 and a mosin nagant. With the M4, I have dumped over 1k rounds in a single afternoon easy without any side effects (aside from a giant unstoppable grin), especially none that would effect general combat effectiveness. After that many rounds, I have noticed some very minor bruising, but it wasn't painful or tender.

 

Now, my mosin-nagant on the other hand, will briuse my shoulder a little more after only 30-40 rounds or so. However, even in this case it is neglegable and doesn't affect my shooting as much, nor would I expect to be putting the same amount of rounds in a combat situation as I would with the M4. I begin to feel the bruising on subsequent shots, but it certainly doesn't deter me from hitting paper targets, so I would doubt it would deter me from making the decision to KoS.

 

Either way, I don't believe that the amount of firing it takes to be fatigued enough to become combat inefficient would be a deterrent to the KoS mindset. Further more, I would think that when presented this situation in real life, the last thing people would think about when determining whether or not to KoS, would be arm fatigue. I would think that the normal engagement time would be much shorter than the amount of time it takes to experience the type of fatigue in which the OP is speaking.

Edited January 7, 2014 by wolf-mind

[Jokulhaups (DayZ) 1]

A more appropriate approach to this would be a a misfire/jam chance. This would be much more realistic and in tune with the game's item quality system. A higher percentage misfire/jam chance for the more pieces that are in poor quality and if a jam were to occur you'd need to put your rifle on the ground, take each attachment out one by one, and replace it one by one to fix it (for m4 at least).

the most probable injuries for the user from actually discharging a firearm could be cuts on the hand from holding a slide action pistol incorrectly, the very uncommon cartridge burns from discharged brass, and of course shooting yourself in the foot...

 

i'm not saying something like this needs to be implemented, but if you're looking for firing penalties this is most likely how they'd be executed

[Jaybopper 49]

Again we're touching on the subject of "How good is my character at something?" and "How do I make them better at it?" and finally "Does skilling up each new character bore me to tears?".

 

I think the point is to make the game simulate as much as possible and let the players bring their individual levels of skill to the game.

Maybe some of the mechanics in OP will be brought in to help said simulation but personally I wouldn't like to see them very much at all since they ruin immersion.

 

Let me ask ye this; what about adrenaline? Can't you argue that adrenaline would negate these debuffs? How does the game detect when you would have released adrenaline?

See this is what happens when you start talking about "realistic" game mechanics, IMO they are un-realistic to implement. Much better to focus on immersion.

And let's face it, you can't argue for these shoulder and forearm pains to be implemented without calling for adrenaline to be implemented.

 

 

A more appropriate approach to this would be a a misfire/jam chance. This would be much more realistic and in tune with the game's item quality system. A higher percentage misfire/jam chance for the more pieces that are in poor quality and if a jam were to occur you'd need to put your rifle on the ground, take each attachment out one by one, and replace it one by one to fix it (for m4 at least).

 

Love this, just love it.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Jaybopper

[dgeesio 1034]

i want kicking and double dragon elbows

[Karmaterror 982]

Again we're touching on the subject of "How good is my character at something?" and "How do I make them better at it?" and finally "Does skilling up each new character bore me to tears?".

 

I think the point is to make the game simulate as much as possible and let the players bring their individual levels of skill to the game.

Maybe some of the mechanics in OP will be brought in to help said simulation but personally I wouldn't like to see them very much at all since they ruin immersion.

 

Let me ask ye this; what about adrenaline? Can't you argue that adrenaline would negate these debuffs? How does the game detect when you would have released adrenaline?

See this is what happens when you start talking about "realistic" game mechanics, IMO they are un-realistic to implement. Much better to focus on immersion.

And let's face it, you can't argue for these shoulder and forearm pains to be implemented without calling for adrenaline to be implemented.

 

 

 

Hi, i dont see this as a skill, but a condition. Akin to being hungry or having an illness.

 

Wouldnt adrenaline make us forget about our hunger, or inspire us to make it a few feet on a broken leg. I guess everything has a gap in real life consistency, i just feel this would bring it a lil closer. And we have lived ok with no adrenaline system, but things it could effect, for a long time. So i dont see adrenaline as required for this idea :)

[knifeparty 109]

A more appropriate approach to this would be a a misfire/jam chance. This would be much more realistic and in tune with the game's item quality system. A higher percentage misfire/jam chance for the more pieces that are in poor quality and if a jam were to occur you'd need to put your rifle on the ground, take each attachment out one by one, and replace it one by one to fix it (for m4 at least).

 

If I'm not mistaken, there is already a chance for a misfire, which is dependent on weapon condition. However, I do not think it is implemented at this time. I could have sworn (don't quote me on this) that DH mentioned this mechanic specifically in one of his videos.

 

That's three things that can affect us putting rounds on target. Chance to misfire, overall weapon condition affecting accuracy, and our own physical condition affecting our ability to aim steadily, I think that adding anything else would make things a little too convoluted for the amount of effect they actually have on the individual.

[Jaybopper 49]

Hi, i dont see this as a skill, but a condition. Akin to being hungry or having an illness.

 

 I understand that but you notice the other comments in the thread from people saying how they've never really suffered from any of these conditions after using certain firearms.

 

My point is that every time something happens to your character and you think to yourself "that would never happen me in real life" you disconnect the player from their character, sucking them right out of immersion. That's bad..

 

Now I know you might think well some people will try to jump their character off a cliff, break a leg in game and say "that would never happen me in real life" but forget about that bullshit.

What you are proposing here can logically be argued against by some people who it actually would not happen to in real life.

So where does that leave you if you still want this mechanic in the game? As I said, skills. You increase you character's ability to hold, fire, maintain a firearm.

 

As I said though this skill grinding is tedious crap that ruins immersion.

[d4wn 23]

omg guys... it is much easier to handle KOS!

 

minimize the amount of ammo! that is the solution

[MT-Klips 12]

I honestly don't think the OP was intending that EXACT method.

 

I feel he was trying to relay a method of deterring excessive gun use. Whether it is the method above or another that is developed along the road.

 

Ideas are made by discussion, not shooting down/disagreeing completely with someone.

 

I remember watching a small YouTube video on how someone hoped that he could identify someone in DayZ by looking at them.

He wanted there to be Blips above there heads.

After a civil discussion with a comment-er/subscriber they came to a unique perspective of a message in the bottom corner of it actually saying "I recognize this person" just like the messages in game now. 

 

II believe the OP is on the correct track, my own thoughts on the situation are that a gun should be loud and dangerous, to both the shooter and the receiver, In DayZ's current state it is limited by what it has to offer. 

In an ideal situation the Shooter would be SWARMED with the surrounding zombies when shooting a weapon (snipers being vulnerable to hopefully "wandering zombies") thus enforcing stealth/adds in the decision of shooting a weapon. 

 

ATM that's not plausible but this is why were here in the alph-"er" in order to help develop the game further.

 

 

[blfonsworth 32]

Does your shoulder really start to hurt if you've shot a lot?

 

I recently saw a tribute video to Mr. Kalashnikov of a man firing around 700 shot's from an AK. He didn't show any signs of pain.

 

It really depends on the type of weapon and how often you're used to shooting. I shoot sporting clays from time to time, which requires 100 rounds through a 12g in pretty quick succession.. Although I'm used to it and have shot my whole life. The repeated recoil from a 12g, 100 times, usually in less than an hour, will definitely leave a bit of a bruise on the shoulder. Accuracy really is dependent on your personal tolerance for the "pain". I don't find it painful, more uncomfortable than anything.

[gibonez 3633]

Why do people still think KOS is a problem ?

 

It really isnt.

[Atom Quark 437]

It really depends on the type of weapon and how often you're used to shooting. I shoot sporting clays from time to time, which requires 100 rounds through a 12g in pretty quick succession.. Although I'm used to it and have shot my whole life. The repeated recoil from a 12g, 100 times, usually in less than an hour, will definitely leave a bit of a bruise on the shoulder. Accuracy really is dependent on your personal tolerance for the "pain". I don't find it painful, more uncomfortable than anything.

I do the same thing with the 12gauge when we go shooting.  I reload about 200shots and just go blasting in the forest and about 150 shots arm all bruised.  Shooting is so fun though you put up with the ache.  We where so tired one day shooting I could not even hold on to the front grip on the pistolgrip 12gauge.  3in magnum 000 Buckshot is even worse.