Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[floj 393]

OK...since the 'remove third person from SA' thread has just been a constant argument with no solution forthcoming. I figured *maybe* it's because everyone's already got their internet swords out ready to fight to the death based on the topic title alone.

 

Do you want this implemented? - POLL

 

Summary:

 

The Issue

 

Third person view currently offers an unrealistic ability to see around corners/over terrain as evidenced in this video (please try and ignore the bits where he talks about one being better or worse)

 

 

This results gameplay-wise in:

 

Asymmetric pvp - ambushes and/or snipers can be completely undetected whilst tracking other players. Most pvp will be decided by whoever is glitching the camera around walls the best to line up their shots or wait for their back to be turned and shoot before the enemy even has a chance to be aware of them. Reconnaisance of an area before moving in is futile because another player can watch you from an invisible position.

 

Easier pve - Horror games typically use a restrictive viewpoint to add to tension by adding to the unknown around every corner. Being able to freely see zombies from a safe position to avoid or arrange a safe takedown removes this. Additionally it's easier to scan for and collect loot whilst travelling through a town.

 

So what's the problem?

 

- It fractures the playerbase and creates argument between the two sides.

- Some players cannot play FPS at all due to motion sickness and so if your group of buddies includes one, you're forced to join him on a server you might not like yourself.

- There is no specific option on the server list to easily filter between modes.

- It completely changes the PvE gameplay even before you throw other players in the mix for PvP as mentioned above

- Usually in game design, selecting 1PP or 3PP is made early in the process since it affects level design and other mechanics within the game. Enabling both is an option, but it can cause a detriment to both gamplay styles unless factored in.

 

Possible Solutions (that I can think of)

 

- Keep it the same, never let the two player types mix and balance it the same for both modes -  Results in subpar gameplay for all (zeds too easy to avoid in 3PP or too hard in 1PP, loot over abundant for 3PP or lacking for 1PP). Smaller user populations for each mode.

- Keep it the same, never let the two players mix and balance it independently for both modes - Smaller user populations for each mode, requires more balancing in beta stages.

- Force all players to play on one type or another and remove the other entirely - One portion of the playerbase unhappy with the result, potential loss of players. (65+ page thread of pointless back and forth)

- Fix the broken mechanic in 3PP by implementing LOS and removing anything that they wouldn't be able to see in 1PP to make an even playing field for all.

How this might work: http://youtu.be/g0fWg1UkGP8?t=14m8s / http://youtu.be/58cW0M2ek1A?t=3m40s - Everyone happy? Further devtime needed to implement

- More restrictive camera angles for 3PP. Over the shoulder with a shorter distance from the player, like Resident Evil, no 3PP whilst proned... has been suggested by Rocket himself

- Something else? I did try and read the whole 'remove third person' thread but over the 2hours it took, I might have missed some bits -  it's a forum, chuck your ideas out for discussion :)

 

Before you post

 

- There's nothing intrinsically wrong with either perspective. There are amazing games that have used each technique but each technique does have it's own pros and cons. Please don't just flame users of the other playstyle because they're doing it 'wrong' or are being 'elitist.'

 

- And for anyone who thinks 3PP omnivision is working as intended by the devs:

 

"Just finished an amazing 3 hour round of DayZ on a 3PP:OFF server. In my opinion, players using 3PP rob themselves of part of the experience"

Hicks - https://twitter.com/Hicks_206/status/418847558702620672

 

"I want to remove...3rd person"

Rocket - http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/16p21g/overview_of_rockets_ama_from_today/

 

 

EDIT: Added 4th wall youtube demonstrations, thanks Jamz and KoS and Outlawled

EDIT2: Added developer comments, thanks Bad_Mojo

EDIT3: Bit of an edit and tidy up after 20pages of posts ^^

Edited February 21, 2014 by SmashT

[Max Planck 7174]

I've locked the other thread in the hope that the discussion can have a fresh and sober start here.

 

Please be civil. This is just about a mechanic in a computer game, after all.

 

Insults and personal attacks will be moderated.

[floj 393]

I kinda feel bad cuz another thread about this popped up whilst I was editing - and also as impartial as I tried to be, I mostly play in 1PP so my experience is still slanted one way - 3PP guys feel free to point out the stuff you don't like in 1PP for my edification.

[Jamz 253]

I'll just repost this here too, if its ok. I think it's the best example of a fix for the TPV exploit yet: Relevant part about 14mins in

 

Edited January 6, 2014 by Jamz

[Nihilum 209]

I've locked the other thread in the hope that the discussion can have a fresh and sober start here.

 

Please be civil. This is just about a mechanic in a computer game, after all.

 

Insults and personal attacks will be moderated.

Long live moderator king max, long live the king.

:thumbsup:

[crazyandlazy 376]

Wow superb graphics. I had thought that was SA at first. Sorry for going off on a tangent.

[wild_man 4442]

snip movie of 2017 3pp solution

 

 

this is best solution I see where is take away all advantage from guys who 'want to look on character' :beans:

 

here is direct link for relevant part http://youtu.be/g0fWg1UkGP8?t=14m8s

any 3rd person guys who don't like this solution must be disappoint because it remove exploit wall hack magic power :|

 

I would have no problem if this system was put in SA and I am 100% 1st person hardcore player ;)

Edited January 6, 2014 by KoS

[MrNomadic76 39]

In regards to items spawning on top of cupboards and such, it would help first person players if the Vicinity loot window worked better. As it is, I sometimes have to crouch for things to appear that are right in front of me on the floor and with stuff on top of cupboards, sometimes they won't appear at all in the Vicinity window, and if I'm in 3rd Person I have to switch to first person to point the crosshair at it to pick it up, and even this won't always work. Maybe increasing the radius of the vicinity mechanic in the vertical plane may help or maybe scrap the loot spots at high level altogether. It's a small headache but a headache nonetheless.

 

As for which style is better, 1st or 3rd, I prefer 1st, but that's because I use Freetrack and is also my personal opinion. I think both styles should be supported on their own hives as someone playing in 1st can be completely outplayed by someone using 3rd. Don't see why people would argue about the two though, seems pretty immature to do so.

[OrLoK 16182]

Long live moderator king max, long live the king.

:thumbsup:

king? I shall have to spank him in the mod lounge....

 

Back OT I have no solution and I feel we may never reach a happy compromise. Im a 1st person player, but I do understand sometimes there are real reasons for using 3rd.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[tremanarch 42]

good video.

 

as always dylecxi nails it!

[aethereater 1]

good video.

 

as always dylecxi nails it!

 

Yes, he really has hit every reason that I could come up with for why TPV is wrong.

 

king? I shall have to spank him in the mod lounge....

 

Back OT I have no solution and I feel we may never reach a happy compromise. Im a 1st person player, but I do understand sometimes there are real reasons for using 3rd.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

Could you please elaborate on those reasons?

[floj 393]

Even as my less preferred view, I'd say a great reason for using 3PP is just to enjoy the scenery :)

 

An extra 6 foot on your viewpoint makes most minor contour variations moot and you get a much better view of the gameworld whilst you run around. You get the kind of views that are impossible from 1PP unless you put yourself in an exposed position. Most likely why it's very popular with streamers.

[OrLoK 16182]

Yes, he really has hit every reason that I could come up with for why TPV is wrong.

 

 

Could you please elaborate on those reasons?

Hello there,

 

Ill touch on them.

 

For example one reason is motion sickness which affects many players. My mate suffers from this and it physically makes him vomit if he plays too long in FP. Now, do we cater to those players or ostracize them?

 

Its all been said before in the other many threads

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Hopefully this thread can remain constructive...but I doubt it. 

 

I would love to see some fixes to 3PP and frankly I have been having a great time playing 1PP since upgrading my computer. If people really want to know an honest reason many enjoy 3PP imagine having to deal with massive FPS drops coupled with DayZ's clunky movement system in first person. I am able to get around the clunky (best word I can think of, I do not hate it but it does not look that smooth while in 1PP) movement but the FPS drops made 1PP incredibly unsatisfying. I literally was unable to figure out the reason why I disliked 1PP so much in the mod and the standalone until I upgraded my computer and then a light went off that the FPS drops were making that view disorienting and head ache inducing. I do not even get motion sickness and I found myself getting a headache from running in 1PP for long periods. Beyond that I still maintain anyone who argues 1PP is more realistic is only looking at half the issue since it is not realistic to have that little connection to ones body. I will say first person is more difficult, but both perspectives have drawbacks as far as realism is concerned.  

 

As far as the fixes, I would love it if you were unable to see objects, players, or zombies that were out of your direct LOS. I would love a force to first person whenever a player goes prone. Anyone who can not live with those fixes probably is too dependent on the "exploits" of third person. Hopefully they can put something in place to please the vast majority of the player base (although I am happy with the current situation of server options) and just ignore the vocal minority who will never be happy on either side of the debate. 

Edited January 6, 2014 by Zombie Jesus

[reapers239 57]

I am all up for civil conversations. One thing ppl are forgetting is that the camera for third view is the way it is because also we have vehicles coming, and third person view helps driving them, specially when you go off road and on Helis which i also pilot on first person. i Was going to suggest a over the shoulder TPV like Mass Effect, but i almost forgot about vehicles. 

 

As for first person theres nothing i dont like same as third. I think ppl think is clunky in person due to body movements, maybe they are just used to others games where you can change items and weapons almost instantly, where in dayz they are going for close simulation of how body reacts which i like. 

 

However my concern right now are other moree import stuff that needs fixing, like when i was shooting a Z like 4 feet from a house even though the wall was in front of me i was shooting the wall and had the effects and all for it.

[aethereater 1]

Hello there,

 

Ill touch on them.

 

For example one reason is motion sickness which affects many players. My mate suffers from this and it physically makes him vomit if he plays too long in FP. Now, do we cater to those players or ostracize them?

 

Its all been said before in the other many threads

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

In your mates case then, the 3PP solution works. As has been stated before with motion sickness, it is usually caused by incorrect FOV setting, motion blur, or refresh rates not syncing. If all of these factors are ruled out, then I would have to wonder how does the dev team plans to solve motion sickness.

 

A lot of players use TrackIR in FPV just fine(myself included) and plan to switch to Occulus Rift when available and debugged. Occulus also has motion sickness inducing issues, but they are all mostly attributed to configuration settings or conditioning.

 

With that said, I do hope that there is no catering to the minority of issues this early on in Dayz's development. This is provided that motion sickness is found to be a minor issue of course.

Edited January 6, 2014 by aEtherEater

[Max Planck 7174]

king? I shall have to spank him in the mod lounge....

 

 

My spirit is ready, but my flesh is weak.

 

Could you please elaborate on those reasons?

 

I'll do it too. I'll call the reason 'enjoyment'.

 

In the mod I played 1stP only. Always, always.

Both because I didn't like being seen by people obscured by walls, but also because I felt so much more there. In the forest, in Chernarus.

 

In the SA it's different, for me. I like seeing my poor guy, running around in his bright orange raincoat and silly tophat. I do all kinds of posing stuff and take screenshots that only I ever look at.

I also find it makes long treks more interesting, the game becomes sort of a hiking simulator (in a good way).

I still prefer 1stP and always use it in cities/towns, but when just running around I like it the other way too.

 

In short, I don't really know what I want.

I think it will all be better when private hives come around, that way we can play in the way we prefer on a more persistent server.

I would like to see the 'line-of-sight' thing working too, I think that could be a good solution/third alternative.

 

 

EDIT: I never had a problem finding a populated 1stP server in the mod, just for the record.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Max Planck

[kiwi_laurel 24]

I come from a Socom background, 3rd person shooter on Playstation 2 for anyone that doesn't know.

And my experience is that 3rd person, while not as realistic, always brings a much faster and enjoyable gameplay style.

You had to learn to be wary of corners, bins, anything a player could hide behind, but you also used that to your advantage, it seemed to bring about a play style that I have not seen in any game since.

Everything was much more fluid, everybody moved much more freely, due to a much higher awareness of your surroundings. I'm not just talking about what you could see ahead of you, but what you could see at your feet.

I am forever getting stuck on small fences, desks etc in 1st person games, something that just doesn't happen with 3rd person.

I am a huge fan of 3rd person games, purely because I found them much more enjoyable, much more fluid in their movement, and much better paced.

I can see why people argue for 1st person only, but to me, that would bring the game down, it would slow it down way too much, and ruin the fun of it.

[Commanderfluffy 20]

I still don't see a problem with haveing first person servers and 3rd person server. Why force everyone into 1 thing, when you can give everyone what they like. Hard core mode should be 1st person only. Private servers will have plenty of first person only servers. I don't think you should force everyone into 1st person just cause you think its better. In the end its a game, it is meant to be fun for everyone not just a select few who think it should be done one way, when it can easily be done to make both sides happy. I like 1st person so what do I do. Simply go to a 1st person server.

[BwickFS39 9]

I kinda feel bad cuz another thread about this popped up whilst I was editing - and also as impartial as I tried to be, I mostly play in 1PP so my experience is still slanted one way - 3PP guys feel free to point out the stuff you don't like in 1PP for my edification.

1 helmets/mask/glasses etc don't limit FOV like they would or should, like your backpack does. 2. sometimes FP control can feel clunky, and cumbersome to make proper movements(at least from my experience.). IMO one way to fix the issue is to fix sound and make sound directional, if im camping in say a house i should be able to hear the back door open and track their movements and try to set up to attack. Fixing sound imo will help balance it. You can corner camp in Americas Army because of sound, you could easily do it here in DayZ in FP. just some of my two cents.

Edited January 6, 2014 by BwickFS39

[Max Planck 7174]

1 helmets/mask/glasses etc don't limit FOV like they would or should, like your backpack does.

 

I'm fairly certain that gasmasks and such will limit your vision in patches to come. Just like shades will help against the sun glare.

 

Anybody have an idea on how this could work in 3rdP?

[BwickFS39 9]

I'm fairly certain that gasmasks and such will limit your vision in patches to come. Just like shades will help against the sun glare.

 

Anybody have an idea on how this could work in 3rdP?

The way NV works in Arma 2/ mod in 3rd person.

[Max Planck 7174]

The way NV works in Arma 2/ mod in 3rd person.

 

There are no gasmasks in the mod. Also, the limited field of vision from wearing a gasmask would look a bit silly in 3rdP. The 3rd person cam would be wearing the mask?

Edited January 6, 2014 by Max Planck

[BwickFS39 9]

There are no gasmasks in the mod. Also, the limited field of vision from wearing a gasmask would look a bit silly in 3rdP. The 3rd person cam would be wearing the mask?

I'll grant you that point, that it would silly but as of right now thats the only way it would work unless you forced(Theres that word again.) people into FP when they are where a gas mask or something. I wasn't refering to gas masks in the mod, I was to how Night Vision works in the Arma 2 and the mod in 3rd person.

Edited January 6, 2014 by BwickFS39

[gibonez 3633]

Agreed ultimately tpv should be fixed.

 

However for the meantime it needs to be completely removed until they can find  the solution.