Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[tommes 331]

This here reminds me a lot of the discussions around using certain perks (martyr, berserker i.e.) and weapons (noob tube) in CoD:MW. It was looked down upon by anybody with some decency and using this kind of stuff got you kicked from some servers. But many argued like "But it's part of the game..."

 

Yeah, it is. A really annoying part that should've never been put in a multiplayer mode.

 

It's a pity that players these days are so conditioned to having that kind of bullshit in a video game they don't even realize how ridiculous that makes everything.

[Ken Bean 175]

Exactly! The only reason this movement exists is because the zombies brought all the casuals to the yard, and they're like, "the games better our way," and they repeat, "game's better our way." Zombies in any capacity are significantly more mainstream than military simulators.

Calling DayZ player casual...

Well, if you folks like arma so much, then I won't hold ya. ;-)

 

This here reminds me a lot of the discussions around using certain perks (martyr, berserker i.e.) and weapons (noob tube) in CoD:MW. It was looked down upon by anybody with some decency and using this kind of stuff got you kicked from some servers. But many argued like "But it's part of the game..."

Yeah, it is. A really annoying part that should've never been put in a multiplayer mode.

It's a pity that players these days are so conditioned to having that kind of bullshit in a video game they don't even realize how ridiculous that makes everything.

That's another topic and another game, I couln't care less. If they like it, why not? It's not a proof that the world is wrong or sth. I'm not the one to judge them for that. That's why we have a plenty of different games for everyones tastes. There even are 1st person locked server. ;)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Ken Bean

[doctorbadsign 645]

I get the arguments in favour of first person, and I don't really have anything objective to use against them.

 

My quibble with it is a personal one. I like my games to look and feel nice. Personally playing DayZ in first person looks bad and feels awful. If they could get the game to look and feel right in first person I'd play it like that, but to me third person is the more visually pleasing and seemingly less clunky way to play it, and to be perfectly honest I'm not going to play a game in a way that makes me dislike how it feels and looks just because other players don't like the advantages it gives. I realize this is not a good argument for third person, its more of a personal thing, but I thought I'd give it my justification anyway, and I don't care if you disagree.

 

I understand the problem though, it does give an advantage over someone in first person. Thus I think separate servers is the fair thing to do. Either that or implement some kind of system where by players, loot and zombies cannot be seen over a wall when in 3rd person. I don't want the option for 3rd person removed however, at least not until it feel better to play in first person.

[Ken Bean 175]

Personally playing DayZ in first person looks bad and feels awful.

Beans for the feels awful part. I also can't describe it better, it just feels wrong.

I absolutely dislike the idea to spent the whole ingame life in 1st person mode.

Strange that the topic is about "fixing 3rd person", which is an absolutely flawless working game feature. ^^

Edited January 15, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Zombie Jesus 723]

The real question is how much of a priority would you put on fixing 3PP at this point in the Alpha? I know quite a few people think it is top priority, but many like myself would be more interested in content being added, zombie pathfinding, zombie numbers and spawning, and loot balancing and spawning taking a higher priority. Would love to see some quick fixes but we all have to remember it is not as easy as adding a script for Arma since that was the reason to move to standalone architecture. 

 

I realize some might disagree but I am wondering how urgent you think the issue truly is at this time? Are we talking implementation during Alpha, Beta, or retail release?

[doctorbadsign 645]

Beans for the feels awful part. I also can't describe it better, it just feels wrong.

I absolutely dislike the idea to spent the whole ingame life in 1st person mode.

Strange that the topic is about fixing 3rd person, an absolutely flawless working game feature.

 

I agree. Some games feel like they are designed to play in first person. Neither Arma 2 nor DayZ feel like this. Again this term 'feel' is kinda subjective and I cannot really argue against someone who says the opposite. Once I go into 3rd person the game feels like it was meant to be played like that in my opinion. If they removed it without making 1st person feel better I doubt I'd want to play it as much.

[Koala Lord 12]

My point of view on the matter is, play however you wish to play. What I hope will be the final decision on the matter that there is a box server hosts/admins can cross/uncross to enable/disable 3rd person view. 

 

I prefer playing on 3rd person view because it resembles more realistic version (there are exceptions). In real life, your character isn't as clunky as your character in the mod,arma 3 or in the standalone. In real life you can peek over walls, subtle little adjustments to your body so you don't show yourself. In 1st person, you have to expose a minimum of 30% of your body to see what's beyond a wall or what ever obstacle. That currently is the only reason I dislike 1st person view, it is not at all realistic. In real life, you can turn your head around and detect things close or far away much faster than in the game. To be frank, I lose immersion of the game when I'm stuck with first person because that's not how human head or body works.

 

Any arguments supporting 1st or 3rd person view should be irrelevant, let people choose which they want to play (server side option of course because 3rd person is a huge advantage). That way I think everybody's happy.

[Max Planck 7174]

Any arguments supporting 1st or 3rd person view should be irrelevant, let people choose which they want to play (server side option of course because 3rd person is a huge advantage). That way I think everybody's happy.

 

You don't think it will affect development that some items/functions can't be used on half the servers?

 

I'm talking about stuff that limits your vision/field of view, like masks/gasmasks/glasses/goggles and such.

[fnal 206]

The 4th wall alleviates some of the issue but they can still see the environment when you couldn't in FPV, there is still an advantage with that in terms of situational awareness.  Also, this is a discussion topic on fixing the 3PP, why did this suddenly turn into "3PP sucks, it will never be fixed, we have 3PP and 1PP servers etc".  It would be naive to say that it can never be fixed and ignorant to say that 3PP should be removed completely since a large majority of people simply can't enjoy the game in FPV. 

[dallas 5195]

If it already works for NVGs, then I can't see how it can't also work for gasmasks, fogging up your screen during laborious exercise.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Dallas

[fnal 206]

 

Yeah, I'm not interested in 1st person server everywhere or a "fixed" viewpoint, that's right. Finally happy that I got the point across. And now the other news: I'm not the only one. There are way more player who don't want your 1st person server or "fixes" and who love the 3rd person as it is. They actually play on 3rd person server and don't create dozen topics that demand to change or remove 1st person server.

 

 

I'm not advocating any of that at all.  I enjoy playing in 3PP and don't like FPV but understand many players do.  I'm trying to bridge the gap between the two and formulate an alternative to having only 1PP or 3PP servers.  Wouldn't it be the best of both worlds if we could use both in the same server without any advantage to each?

[Max Planck 7174]

If it already works for NVGs, then I can't see how it can't also work for gasmasks, fogging up your screen during laborious exercise.

 

I can see fog happen, but not the limited vision.

Having actual 'gasmask-vision' would be great, but I'm afraid things like that won't happen if they have to develop them for half the servers only.

[dallas 5195]

I don't think there has to be a big difference, just like with the NVG layout.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Dallas

[Max Planck 7174]

I don't think there has to be a big difference, just like with the NVG layout.

 

You mean, they should make it so the 'over-the-head' cam was wearing the mask, glasses/broken glasses and such?

 

I guess that could work. Would look funny though, but it just might work.

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

While I agree with the video 100%

I don't see how this is an issue anymore now that there are 1st person only servers now?

If you don't like 3rd person than don't play on a 3rd person server, simple as that!

Can someone please explain the problem to me?

This thread was started after 1st person servers started, so why is it a problem for the others that like to play that way?

We have (I prefer FPP only myself) servers that cater to 1st person only so the issue is resolved for us.

But if the problem is that your just upset that others use it, and that there's a 3rd person server at ll, then you have issues.

 

Play on the servers that have the perspective you prefer, simple as that!

Edited January 16, 2014 by TEST_SUBJECT_83

[fnal 206]

While I agree with the video 100%

I don't see how this is an issue anymore now that there are 1st person only servers now?

If you don't like 3rd person than don't play on a 3rd person server, simple as that!

Can someone please explain the problem to me?

This thread was started after 1st person servers started, so why is it a problem for others that like it to play that way?

We have (I prefer FP only myself) servers that cater to 1st person only so the issue is resolved for us.

But if the problem is that your just upset that others use it, and that there's a 3rd person server at all, then you have issues.

 

Play on servers that have the perspective you prefer, simple as that!

 

It's not just a 1PP vs 3PP debate per say, the issue comes with the advantage of being able to see above and around walls, whether its a 3PP server or not.  Just because we play in 3PP doesn't mean we like/accept how you can look around and over walls.  It would be great if we could enjoy the perks of 3PP yet keep the playing field level.

[Jamz 253]

You don't think it will affect development that some items/functions can't be used on half the servers?

 

I'm talking about stuff that limits your vision/field of view, like masks/gasmasks/glasses/goggles and such.

 

You could make it so that first person is forced when wearing any mask/goggles. The option to remove them and go back to third would be there still and it might even encourage people to only use the items when necessary (ie. permenantly wearing a gas mask, despite no threat of gas, just for looks). This would not be applicable for half mask items such as medical respirators which would remain in third.

 

I would be happy with that and perhaps people who have trouble with FPV from sickness would tolerate its temporary nature, also if people really wanted to see their masks in TPV perhaps they could be slung around the neck when not worn.

 

To be honest, I think I'd like to see switching between the two views encouraged a bit more.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Jamz

[Rantanplan 18]

The next twelve people that suggest that a separate hive is the solution, I'd like to have to pay one year the upkeep and maintanance of that second hive. And no, just because they already sold one million licenses does not mean that BI has money to waste...

 

Then there are the people that suggest that 3PP substitutes for the loss of situational awareness in a computer game. True to an extend, but at its current state it does not just augment to a more realistic situational awareness, but 3PP significantly supersedes it.

I did this exercise already a few pages earlier, but anyway:

Taste is limited to the body and is irrelevant in this discussion.

Smell is also not a particular strong human sense.

Touch is limited to the immediate vincinity - to substitude that you may light up just about one meter around the player (but not through walls!).

Sound is modelled in the game - what is currently wrong or missing there should be addressed by improving the sound, not "super-vision". You can't hear whether someone is carrying an axe or a gun...

Vision requires a line-of-sight that exposes a part of you as well (or some technical aid, mirror, periscope,...)

There is also a difference in the quality of information from a quick peek around a corner for 5secs with just an eye exposed, or observing the street for a minute from total safety.

 

The increased situational awareness will also cause some trouble in balancing the game. That is not so much balancing in a PvP sense, but PvE. How to make sure that the environment poses the same threat to a player, disregarding whether he plays 3PP or 1PP? If a 3PP player can avoid half the Zombie attacks, should the Zombies then strike twice as hard at 3PP than at 1PP players???

If there are ever meant to be comparable global statistics, achievements, etc, then this is an issue.

 

Also interesting that pure 1PP servers are suggested as a solution. I would be tempted to guess that >50% of the players are not even aware of this issue. Players that have never played the ArmA titles, that don't actively follow the forums (just ~16.5% of the player base is registered here). Also players that only play 3PP - don't they deserve to be protected from players that "build" their gameplay around actively using an exploit against them?! No, it is balanced because everyone can use the same exploit... (just as I was writing this, Jamz brought this up as well)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Rantanplan

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

This here reminds me a lot of the discussions around using certain perks (martyr, berserker i.e.) and weapons (noob tube) in CoD:MW. It was looked down upon by anybody with some decency and using this kind of stuff got you kicked from some servers. But many argued like "But it's part of the game..."

Yeah, it is. A really annoying part that should've never been put in a multiplayer mode.

It's a pity that players these days are so conditioned to having that kind of bullshit in a video game they don't even realize how ridiculous that makes everything.

Using your CoD analogy, the vast majority of players use those perks and enjoy playing that way. The fact that there is a small group that would kick players from servers for using perks because it's not "hardcore" enough for them is ridiculous. That's the definition of an elitist player right there.

The same thing goes for trying to remove 3rd person view. It's ridiculous considering most players don't take video games nearly as seriously as you do.

Edited January 15, 2014 by WrecklessMEDIC

[svisketyggeren 662]

The polls are useless and I stand by that statement 100%. It is a voluntary forum poll and by no means represents a truly random sample. The example I gave earlier is a perfect comparison, asking  people on a conservative website their feelings about Obama would not be representative of the population at large. The Forum and Reddit are populated by people who play DayZ but often have a different mindset than the general population. Then you have the problem of making it 100% voluntary to those users who actually stumble across the topic. If you had said the poll indicates forum users prefer 1PP I would have no grounds to challenge you, but since you specifically said the polls indicate players prefer 1PP I called you out on having a poor understanding of how to present useful data. The polls in question indicate nothing but the preference of the few forum users who actually answered the question, any other conclusion is so fraught with bias and sampling problems that it makes the poll...useless. I don't have to challenge you with an equally useless poll, that would just double down on this stupidity. 

 

Your beef is with math, not with me. I am not challenging you to be a jerk, I am challenging you because you are taking garbage polls and using them to make conclusions. We have both gone way off topic though and frankly I have been enjoying 1PP servers lately. It is different and maybe more people will come around and hopefully some of the exploits can be reduced in 3PP to make those servers more enjoyable. I like the spatial awareness of 3PP but the roof camping and corner peeking gets old and I too have experienced the terrible 3PP camping standoffs that these servers produce. 

A poll is not 100% useless if its not taken from a randomized sample. Ur Obama example is equivalent to making the poll on a forum where only 1st person advocates hang out...or only third person advocates hang out. Which is not the case at all. U have not facts or numbers at all to even say anything about mix of 1st and 3rd person players on the forum. As it stand the polls are the only information we have. And to get something straight....even if some divine interference came down and told us the exact number of 1st and 3rd person players, the polls would still indicate that the majority of dayz players prefer 1st person. I as an objective person use the information I have and draw a conclusion based on that...a draw ur conclusion based on...well I dont know really.

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

A poll is not 100% useless if its not taken from a randomized sample. Ur Obama example is equivalent to making the poll on a forum where only 1st person advocates hang out...or only third person advocates hang out. Which is not the case at all. U have not facts or numbers at all to even say anything about mix of 1st and 3rd person players on the forum. As it stand the polls are the only information we have. And to get something straight....even if some divine interference came down and told us the exact number of 1st and 3rd person players, the polls would still indicate that the majority of dayz players prefer 1st person. I as an objective person use the information I have and draw a conclusion based on that...a draw ur conclusion based on...well I dont know really.

Those polls are ridiculously flawed and don't give an accurate representation of the playerbase in the least. Even the server population numbers could be considered flawed but they are FAR more reliable than a biased poll.

Just face it. You're in the minority no matter how hard you try to spin it.

[S0UTHPAW 12]

To the people saying that having First-Person-Only servers fixes the problem: It would if there were enough of these servers, and enough people playing on them. I truly wish that the majority of players played on first-person servers, but sadly, It's rare to find more than 8-12 people on a first-person-server (At least here in Australia).

To the people saying that it's too easy to get stuck on things in first person: Learn to play. One learns how to circumvent such issues after a short time of playing ARMA 2 /Day Z. eg. don't walk sideways through doorways or you'll get stuck. Pretend your character is a giant, rectangular block, and you'll find yourself getting stuck a lot less

To the people saying that they want to see their character: You have the inventory screen, and in first-person view you can also hold down alt to look down and see your character as a "first-person actor".

I sympathise with 3rd person players, as I do use it when I'm on a 3rd person server, so as not to be at a disadvantage. However, the game is much more fun, intense, and immersive when played in first-person. I like the previous suggestion of the player inventory screen showing a real-time character model, who is actually doing whatever the player is doing, instead of standing there like a mannequin.

[Ken Bean 175]

To the people saying that they want to see their character: You have the inventory screen, and in first-person view you can also hold down alt to look down and see your character as a "first-person actor".

It's not the same.

 

I sympathise with 3rd person players, as I do use it when I'm on a 3rd person server, so as not to be at a disadvantage.

See, that's why it's a good thing to seperate the hives. I always read that you 1st person advocates play on 3rd person server as well. The time being you are not on a 1st person server, which leads to lower 1st person server populations. One reason you folks jumpt to 3rd person is that you can take your character with you.

 

However, the game is much more fun, intense, and immersive when played in first-person.

3rd person is not less immersive. In fact it's not much different from 1st person view. You make up a big difference as you wish, but since 3rd person feels more right, it's even more immersive to me than 1st. One thing you need to understand is, that this is nothing but a personel preference.

 

I like the previous suggestion of the player inventory screen showing a real-time character model, who is actually doing whatever the player is doing, instead of standing there like a mannequin.

Yeah, would be a nice addition to the 3rd person view, but it doesn't substitute it. How about binding the 1st person perspective to the main menu only? ... You probably get the idea.

And again, 1st person view is limited. It is not realistic. In real life we have a way better perception of ourself and our souroundings. Please accept that the 3rd person view is needed to implement sth like a "self awareness" into the game while moving around and doing survival stuff. DayZ is not only a shooter, it also is a survival game/experience. So in order to experience the survival part, you need to transport this somehow to the player. And this is perfectly done by watching your character doing survival stuff, getting a better idea of what's happening with you.

If I'm playing in 1st person only mode it feels just wrong in very different ways. It's not only that the self awarenes in the game world is being disturbed, it also lacks the most part of the survival and roleplay experience.

1st person is not:

- more realistic

- more immersive

and the only explanation I can see as valid point is the combat argument, you guys bring up.

You want to have a pvp game more fitting your personel 1st person preference with less "unknown variables". That's what you want.

 

And yet you are complaining because there are too few player on the 1st person server.

Tell me: how does few player on a server disturbs your survival experience?

Well, it doen't. I figure you don't care that much.

--> You are looking for PvP and with a full server it's easier to PvP.

 

You really should think about what you are doing with your agenda here. It's like fucking up the game for loads of player just out of pure selfishness.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

Personally playing DayZ in first person looks bad and feels awful.

One could get the feeling that for some people switching to 3PP activates the Arma3 engine. It doesn't on my computer. Only the point of view changes.

[tommes 331]

The real question is how much of a priority would you put on fixing 3PP at this point in the Alpha? I know quite a few people think it is top priority, but many like myself would be more interested in content being added, zombie pathfinding, zombie numbers and spawning, and loot balancing and spawning taking a higher priority. Would love to see some quick fixes but we all have to remember it is not as easy as adding a script for Arma since that was the reason to move to standalone architecture. 

 

I realize some might disagree but I am wondering how urgent you think the issue truly is at this time? Are we talking implementation during Alpha, Beta, or retail release?

They should do client optimization first I guess. That should happen before retail. Actually before Beta, hence Beta usually means "feature complete".