Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

This is a perfect solution to 3PP in dayz. Great idea. Simply reconfiguring how the camera works should improve its authenticity.

Well, not quite perfect as described because, currently, the camera remains directly behind the player's head and their direction is controlled by panning. Therefore, the solution would have to be in two parts;

 

1) Whilst moving, the 3PP should be as it is currently and the view axis should be centred about the player to allow direction control.

2) Whilst stationary, the view should pan about the camera axis as described previously.

3) When the player reaches the edge of the screen, they should then begin to turn in that direction.

4) If the player moves whilst the view is off centre, either the screen should snap back to be directly behind the player's head and movement is in the direction the body is facing, with the view being as 1), or the player body turns ('snaps', if you will) to the screen centre and begins moving in that direction, after which 1) applies again.

 

I'm not sure how easy that would be to implement or whether it would transition well, but in my head it works. :D

Edited January 14, 2014 by Monkfish

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Also, motion sickness might be being caused by the brain seeing visual input (I'm moving forward, or something is moving) without having any other sensory input (balance, the feeling of actually moving, or something) to back up what the eyes are seeing.

[floj 393]

I like the idea, but I'm guessing you're mostly thinking of alt+look as a funtion - if a character walks up to a wall, then starts to walk along the length of the wall, surely the camera would still see over it?

[svisketyggeren 662]

Maybe you have never taken a statistics course (apparently you have, your professor would be ashamed to see you defend these sources) but even 1000 participants in that type of poll is massively flawed. Lets start with the obvious that many of the polls have biased questions or introductions from the start. Then you have to consider where the poll is being offered. But the main reason the poll is 100% useless as a barometer for DayZ players is the fact that it was a voluntary poll on a forum. To get a real idea of what the actual preference was you would have to randomly sample players of the game using a non biased questionnaire, not offer a voluntary poll on a forum. Then you would have to ask the actual question of preference, not some stupid question like "would you continue playing if 3PP was taken out of the game." If you ask that question you are getting the answer to a completely separate question and can make no inferences on the player bases preferences. 

 

As I said in another post...100 paticipants is enough to model a population of 1 million with a 10 % error margin. The problem u have is that u come at my post like ive postulated something to of 100% certainty, I never said that. Ive said that all polls earlier indicates that the majority are those that prefer 1st person....indicates...read it. As I said, i know my statistics...and as it stands now, there is a higher probability that those that prefer 1st person is the majority of the 1 million dayz players.

 

Ofc u bring up valid points in regards to how statistically significant the polls are, u can question all polls made that way...the fact that u wanna call the poll 100% useless really shows me ur lack of statistical knowledge. Neither can u 100% disregard the poll, neither can say its 100% true what the polls indicates...its the nature of statistics, we deal with probabilities.

The basic question that was put forward by me was...who is the majority? Polls indicate 1st person players to be the majority. End of story...until someone creates a poll that shows otherwise.

Edited January 14, 2014 by svisketyggeren

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

As I said in another post...100 paticipants is enough to model a population of 1 million with a 10 % error margin. The problem u have is that u come at my post like ive postulated something to of 100% certainty, I never said that. Ive said that all polls earlier indicates that the majority are those that prefer 1st person....indicates...read it. As I said, i know my statistics...and as it stands now, there is a higher probability that those that prefer 1st person is the majority of the 1 million dayz players.

Ofc u bring up valid points in regards to how statistically significant the polls are, u can question all polls made that way...the fact that u wanna call the poll 100% useless really shows me ur lack of statistical knowledge. Neither can u 100% disregard the poll, neither can say its 100% true what the polls indicates...its the nature of statistics, we deal with probabilities.

The basic question that was put forward by me was...who is the majority? Polls indicate 1st person players to be the majority. End of story...until someone creates a poll that shows otherwise.

Sorry, the polls don't indicate that 1st person players are the majority at all. If you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you. :(

[gibonez 3633]

Sorry, the polls don't indicate that 1st person players are the majority at all. If you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you. :(

 

But they do.

[djporternz 644]

If they'd actually chosen to go on 1PP only servers there'd be no problem to discuss here.

That's the one good argument the 3PP crowd is making. If we'd actually populate the 3PP:off servers, there'd be no problem anymore. But in fact...not in poll...players chose to leave them relatively abandoned.

Exactly. Have some beans.

 

This is what I've been saying from the first, at least since there has been an option to lock a server to 1PP. And only very rarely are there more than a dozen people actually playing on them (I don't count people who jump in and out in less than a few minutes, they're usually only inst-magi-server jumpers or people who don't know what 3PP:OFF means).

 

And don't give me any blubbering BS about the need to be on servers where the people are. That is half the problem right there. There aren't people on the 1PP servers because you yourself are over on a 3PP server. And then you come on over here and start whinging that some 3PP arseholes are ruining your game because he isn't forced to play 1PP on their turf.

 

So just stop with the bitching and get back on the 1PP servers. There is sure enough people whining in this thread to full multiple 1PP servers. But if you are CHOOSING to go onto a 3PP server for whatever reason, then sorry, you need a hot cup of STFU.

 

In conclusion:

[slizzedy 70]

I for my part really don't understand what the big fuss is about. There are 1PP-only server now so everyone can choose how one wants to play the game, problem solved. I play on 1PP-only servers and they are well populated, so I'm happy. :)

 

I don't like the  4th wall thing, it tricks you into believing an area is clear while it's not. But on the other hand I wouldn't care if it's implemented as long as they keep 1PP-only servers, if this is to replace 1PP-only servers, then it's a clear no from me to 4th wall.

[victusmortuus 1074]

It doesn't need fixing though.

[djporternz 644]

I don't like the  4th wall thing, it tricks you into believing an area is clear while it's not. But on the other hand I wouldn't care if it's implemented as long as they keep 1PP-only servers, if this is to replace 1PP-only servers, then it's a clear no from me to 4th wall.

4th wall is a kludge to try and keep everyone playing on the same server. If you have such a small user base that you need this, then you're doing something wrong. Have 1PP/3PP locked servers, and who cares if you've split the player base. Each group will be as happy as pigs in sh... as long as you don't tell them that the other group exists ;)

[fnal 206]

Then perhaps another solution would be to pan the camera about its axis rather than about the axis of the player. Currently, when panning, the movement is centred around the player, who stays centred on screen, allowing you to see around/over stuff. If the camera moved about its own axis (i.e. the player does NOT stay centred on screen) then this would prevent people being able to see around corners.

Therefore, looking left would mean that the camera would pan left about its own axis and the player would move to the right of the screen. Only once the player is at the right edge of the screen would the view begin to pan around the axis of the player. I feel diagrams would help with this but I do not have the time to make some. I'll do this later if the suggestion is not clear using words.

 

I like your idea and did some visuals in paint.  However, an issue I can see is that if the camera is simply rotated on its own axis, when close to a wall, you could still use it to see around the wall since the camera is behind the person.  A possible solution would be for the camera to get close to the person the more you rotate the camera.  For example, if you are looking 90 degrees to the left, the right side of the camera will be at your characters head/back.

 

I'll have to boot up 3ds Max and make a mock animation with this camera setup and see how it works out.

 

Current setup:

 

 

Proposed solution:

 

 

Edited January 15, 2014 by K20017

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Ahh, yes, I see the flaw. And yes, the camera getting closer to the head as it turns should fix it; I'd be interested to see what you come up with in 3D Max. The solution may well be difficult to implement (if it works), although I guess that's for the devs to worry about. :D

[jbroge 30]

Depending on the situation only one party has the benefit.

But it is not a balancing issue. Let's assume magic spells would be implemented in DayZ. Would be balanced...and ridiculous. Depending on the spells and the situation overall and combat behaviour would change quite dramatically to something not even remotely realistic.

Well...one magic spell is already included in present DayZ...the magical floating eye...

Well then I guess you could view it as modern military technology, a small camera mounted to the bag over looking you while being projected some how. Seems very unlikely but I still see no problems with this, if the other party is at a disadvantage they need to find an advantage just like in real life.

[jbroge 30]

Ahh, yes, I see the flaw. And yes, the camera getting closer to the head as it turns should fix it; I'd be interested to see what you come up with in 3D Max. The solution may well be difficult to implement (if it works), although I guess that's for the devs to worry about. :D

Many other games have features like this even minecraft

Edited January 15, 2014 by jbroge

[cervantes316 0]

I've spent a good while reading through this thread, and even made an account finally just to throw my rationale into this discussion (I know, shame on me). I've been playing since the SA was released (I always kept up with the mod as well), and I agree that there is definitely no easy fix. There have been good suggestions on how to fix the "magic parascope" as some people called it. Inevitably, implementing any of these fixes will alienate some part of the player base. It looks to me from reading the forums (and I may be completely incorrect) that the community is, for the most part, split evenly between preferences, with a small part of the 1st person community wanting 3rd person completely gone. On the inverse of this, there is only a very small part of the third person community (again, from what I have seen) that is willing to compromise. It is very unlikely that both sides are going to be happy if and when 3rd person is fixed. People just want to play the game the way that they have learned to play it, whether it be mostly 1st or third person. I also personally believe that the server split is the best fix to this issue. There is always going to be a split player base in certain games. Look at Call of Duty (I'll probably get mocked for just mentioning it) and Battlefield. They have different players that prefer different modes (normal, hardcore), and each side will only play on servers and associate themselves with people who share their same preferences. And that's completely okay. People do that in everyday life as well. I also have no doubt that this game will be extremely popular on full release, or even when it enters beta, so a split player population should not be an issue. Of course, this whole discussion is a matter of opinions, and it will ultimately be up to the developers to decide in which direction they wish to take their game. It's as simple as that.

 

I also would like to point out, that on Steam, the DayZ standalone is listed as an action game, while the description lists it as a survival/horror. It is in no way indicated that this is a simulation game (even though it did start in, I believe, a military simulator game). The developers also need to choose which route they are taking in this respect. If they decided to take it more in a direction of a simulation, they could more than justify removing the 3rd person view, along with a lot of other things that are currently in the alpha. As it stands, it will be difficult to fix 3rd person, but it is doable. It is also plausible to completely remove 3rd person, lose some players, and build back up again as development goes along. I would not quit the game simply because 3rd person view was removed. A simpler fix would be to leave things as they are now, and let everyone play how they want. Apologies for being off-topic.

[colinm9991 196]

I come bearing the gift of wisdom for you all;

 

If you like playing in First or Third person, then stick to your own first or third person servers and shut your pie-holes.

 

Stop trying to ruin one another experience with logic such as "He made a video killing a person in third/first person, WE HAVE TO STOP THIS BECAUSE HE'S NOT ALLOWED ENJOY HIMSELF!!!!".

[svisketyggeren 662]

Sorry, the polls don't indicate that 1st person players are the majority at all. If you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you. :(

 

Although I dont find ur reply particulary informative or intelligent...its basically say "no ur wrong,  I dont know why"...but still ill shoow the polls to illustrate my point for the other forummembers.

 

In this poll players are asked "would you play dayz if it was 1st person only". 154 players responds to the poll, which is a big enough sample to model 1 million dayz players. 68 % say yes, 31% say no.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146649-poll-dayz-sa-1st-person-only/page-14#entry1459682

 

Second poll is more informative in regards to what the majority of dayz players prefer. Players are asked "Do u play on 3rd person or 1st person servers".

41% say they play on third person servers, but would like to play on first person servers (this shows the the huge lack of 1st person servers at the time).

37% say the play mainly on 3rd person servers.

21% say the play mainly on 1st person servers.

 

Notice the second poll compliments the first. 62% are 1st person preferred players in the second poll, whereas in the first poll 68% would still play the game if it was 1st person only.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146501-do-you-play-on-first-or-third-person-servers/

 

Case closed, the polls indicate that the majority of dayz players prefer 1st person. In regards to what the actual truth is...those that prefer 1st person are certainly not a small minority. My guess is that the truth is fluctuating around 50/50.

Edited January 15, 2014 by svisketyggeren

[Skinup69 24]

The funny thing is you colan peak round corners or walls without being seen in REAL LIFE pretty easy.

In a game with a basic control system, 3rd person does this.

It's funny people saying 1st person is more real.

No it's not, you just love camping your ass off knowing your harder to spot in 1st person.

[Max Planck 7174]

I come bearing the gift of wisdom for you all;

 

If you like playing in First or Third person, then stick to your own first or third person servers and shut your pie-holes.

 

Stop trying to ruin one another experience with logic such as "He made a video killing a person in third/first person, WE HAVE TO STOP THIS BECAUSE HE'S NOT ALLOWED ENJOY HIMSELF!!!!".

 

People are allowed to discuss how they want the game to develop in the future, including the 3rd/1st person issue.

If you don't want to discuss it, you can stay away from this thread.

 

 

This goes for everyone, by the way.

Please be respectful towards each other, the thread is starting to get a bit embarrassing again.

Remember the last one?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Max Planck

[Skinup69 24]

We get that lmao

But Rocket or anyone else working for him has not said anything about removing 3rd person or even fixing it ( even though its been like this for years)

Plus the engine is made for 3rd person.. So why the hell are people talking about this.

There will be no "fixes" to 3rd person, check this message in a year and ill be right.

This thread and any other 1st vs 3rd or fixing 3rd is pointless.

People are allowed to discuss how they want the game to develop in the future, including the 3rd/1st person issue.

If you don't want to discuss it, you can stay away from this thread.

This goes for everyone, by the way.

Please be respectful towards each other, the thread is starting to get a bit embarrassing again.

Remember the last one?

[Iemitsu 6]

I like watching my character :c, but i'm gone try playing on a server first person some day ;3

Edited January 15, 2014 by Iemitsu

[Max Planck 7174]

We get that lmao

But Rocket or anyone else working for him has not said anything about removing 3rd person or even fixing it ( even though its been like this for years)

 

 

Sure he has.

He comments on fixing it here: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbuomj7?context=3

There are other quotes by him on the issue, search and ye shall find.

[floj 393]

Sure he has.

He comments on fixing it here: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbuomj7?context=3

There are other quotes by him on the issue, search and ye shall find.

Very nice link and it has a lot of the reasons why 3PP *is* a nice feature and has some ideas on how to fix exploits not mentioned in this thread - although it doesn't really address the issue of seeing over 7ft walls from a standing stance which seems to be the main grievance :(

 

Also he doesn't mention my favourite part of 3PP which is being able to check your camo against your backdrop easily.

Edited January 15, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Many other games have features like this even minecraft

Err, no it doesn't. http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Third_person_view

 

Imagine, if you will, an invisible and rigid stick attached to the back of the person's head, onto which the camera is attached and is fixed pointing at the back of the head. As the head moves, so does the stick and therefore camera, which swings about in arcs keeping the back of the head centred in the screen. Looking down at the ground means that the stick camera is lifted up, still pointing at the back of the head. The perspective and the height changes. It's the height bit that is key here, because the whole argument about 3PP being 'cheaty' is about the camera movement allowing people to see over things that they otherwise could not see over because the camera is changing its height relative to the body. The same also occurs laterally, enabling them to see around things they would otherwise not be able to see around.

 

My suggestion involves the camera moving about in a different way. Using the same little thought experiment above, instead of the stick being attached to the back of the head and moving with it, it's attached to the back of the shoulders and does not move with the head. Instead, when the head moves, the camera moves about its own axis (imagine a ball joint on the end of the stick, onto which the camera is mounted), meaning that looking down changes the perspective of the camera, but not the height. It therefore becomes impossible (or incredibly difficult) for someone using 3PP to see over/around something.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Monkfish

[Zombie Jesus 723]

As I said in another post...100 paticipants is enough to model a population of 1 million with a 10 % error margin. The problem u have is that u come at my post like ive postulated something to of 100% certainty, I never said that. Ive said that all polls earlier indicates that the majority are those that prefer 1st person....indicates...read it. As I said, i know my statistics...and as it stands now, there is a higher probability that those that prefer 1st person is the majority of the 1 million dayz players.

 

Ofc u bring up valid points in regards to how statistically significant the polls are, u can question all polls made that way...the fact that u wanna call the poll 100% useless really shows me ur lack of statistical knowledge. Neither can u 100% disregard the poll, neither can say its 100% true what the polls indicates...its the nature of statistics, we deal with probabilities.

The basic question that was put forward by me was...who is the majority? Polls indicate 1st person players to be the majority. End of story...until someone creates a poll that shows otherwise.

 

The polls are useless and I stand by that statement 100%. It is a voluntary forum poll and by no means represents a truly random sample. The example I gave earlier is a perfect comparison, asking  people on a conservative website their feelings about Obama would not be representative of the population at large. The Forum and Reddit are populated by people who play DayZ but often have a different mindset than the general population. Then you have the problem of making it 100% voluntary to those users who actually stumble across the topic. If you had said the poll indicates forum users prefer 1PP I would have no grounds to challenge you, but since you specifically said the polls indicate players prefer 1PP I called you out on having a poor understanding of how to present useful data. The polls in question indicate nothing but the preference of the few forum users who actually answered the question, any other conclusion is so fraught with bias and sampling problems that it makes the poll...useless. I don't have to challenge you with an equally useless poll, that would just double down on this stupidity. 

 

Your beef is with math, not with me. I am not challenging you to be a jerk, I am challenging you because you are taking garbage polls and using them to make conclusions. We have both gone way off topic though and frankly I have been enjoying 1PP servers lately. It is different and maybe more people will come around and hopefully some of the exploits can be reduced in 3PP to make those servers more enjoyable. I like the spatial awareness of 3PP but the roof camping and corner peeking gets old and I too have experienced the terrible 3PP camping standoffs that these servers produce.