Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[Rantanplan 18]

Why not bind 3PP to a physical device? Something like this:

Everybody playing in 3PP would carry one of these thing on their shoulders (slighlty modified to get the "from behind" angle). If they peek around corners or over walls, that thing will be visible to the guy standing on the other side. Collision detection would prevent the peeking through walls. Visibility could be further increased by position lights, you know the red and green lights, to know in which direction he is looking (okay, we might discuss about the lights ;))

 

With such a device we could also do away with 1PP servers. Just have two types of 3PP servers, easy servers where the player spawns with a "basic" version of such a device, and normal servers where the player has to find a "normal" version of such a device. The basic devices can't be carried over to normal servers, but normal devices can be found in basic servers as well.

The basic device could be indestructible, but the normal device could be damaged and destroyed. If such a device is in the inventory, it has to be visibly worn.

 

And then we start the Periscope War!

1PP vs. 3PP - the fractions are already well-established here in the forum. Now we can carry the war into the game!

Teams can be easily identified, Elks vs. Panheads.

The Panheads would be out to hide and destroy all the devices they can find, including the Elks that are running around with them, of course. And the Elks would do the opposite, hoarding the devices in their bases. Elk care bears would be spread across the servers, bringing normal devices to people whos device got destroyed, team members that got killed...

 

Just think of the possibilities: an Elk scavange team roams Zelenogorsk to collect as many devices as possible. A Panhead scout detects them and calls in a hunter killer platoon to track the scavangers down and destroy their loot. The Elk scavangers are not unprepared, but have reserve squads located in "neighbouring" servers, that they now call via an external social network. Meanwhile the Panheads were not sleeping either, and they activiated the Zelenogorsk battalion, one company to refill the ranks in the server under attack as their men die, the other companies to track down, bind and eliminate the Elk reserves in the other servers. The Elks are already concentrating their Western Brigade in the Zelenogorsk area, also taking strategic positions like Sosnovka, Green Montain, Kurgan, Drozhino...

Long story short, a small skirmish turns into the 1st Battle of Zelenogorsk, a fight of hundreds if not thousands of players spread across dozens if not hundred and more servers!

 

Who wouldn't want to be part of such an epic event, and all at the cost of some people running around with a silly periscope device. That's well worth it - if you agree, give me your beans :lol:

Edited January 13, 2014 by Rantanplan

[tommes 331]

You don't have 3PP with a scope like that but still "only" 1PP...just 2 feet higher.

[tommes 331]

Well yea I have encountered people who claimed that this is a PvP game...

It's a sandbox. It allows PvP. Players make it about PvP if they decide so.

 

 

A basic human has 2 eyes and its " field of vision " is actually quite narrow. More narrow than most people think it is. We do not have a full 180 degree seamless sight we have a much more narrow clear sight range and the rest of the vision is what we call it a " peripheral vision "  which means it is still in your sight but not clear and focused. You can catch up movements and things but you cant see them clearly until you " focus " with your eyes to the object.

Sooo the following 2 links I'm posting here is about the vision field a Human has... and there is by far no explanation about " another " field of view which lets me see behind a wall, while I even didn't have a direct or partially Line of Sight.

http://s16.postimg.org/fe1yugak5/Fo_V1.jpg

http://s22.postimg.org/tr32thh01/Fo_V2.jpg

The human body has mechanisms like rapid eye movement and other senses that compensate the shortcomings of human vision. Those don't work in present video games and players have to learn to deal with that another way like with fast mouse movements until technology is advanced enough.

 

Therefore I don't actually like the 3pp camera which is implemented,i but hey it is there and people do like to play with it, and ok I respect it. But what I actually see is, that " most " of the players who use this 3pp camera is not because they all suffer from " motion sickness ", right in contrary because it proves you a tactical advantage on your " prey " and well for my " opinion " that kills the mood and the stress factor of the game.

I don't think players chose 3PP consiously for the tactical advantage. At least not at first. It just feels good. You can't see something you want to see and...push of a button...you can see it. That feels good. Once you're used to it, it's a real bummer to not have it. I myself didn't see any problems with that for a long time.

 

 

 

So 3pp and realism? well the answer is obvious. In my opinion it should not be implemented to make yourself see if you are concealed enough in a snipe position or not, because you actually have to know how much you expose yourself if you stick out under a tree or bush or whatever or learn it the hard way and for this you have to use your wits and brain for it...

That's a good point. In reality you can't check your camouflage from outside. You have to know.

 

as to the topic of motion sickness... there have been said enough things how to compensate it. And what I dont understand is, you dont get motionsick when your charackter runs with angle camera but you get motionsick from first person sight? How do you manage to live in the real world? I mean you just have your 2 eyes and theyre not poppin out and hover somewhere upper behind you and give you some 360 degree sight do ya? (when I just think of it, dude that really would be creepy)

I was wondering about that as well, but apparently this motion sickness is caused by a confusion of your brain/mind where your eyes signal movement while all other senses call that bullshit. Many people are prone to that. I was just wondering why that is sort ofswitched off by changing the perspective all of the sudden. But I'm no expert.

Edited January 13, 2014 by tommes

[infiltrator 275]

I don't see how anyone can defend 3rd person view other than "I like it". It kills atmosphere, it kills risk vs reward. When the gameplay revolves around you checking every corner 100% safely and watching people without exposing yourself you know it's deep in the trench.

 

I'm not getting the game until the issue is fixed.. and no.. a segregation of the community by dividing them between server settings is NOT the solution.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Infiltrator

[edsilver 1]

OK...since the 'remove third person from SA' thread has just been a constant argument with no solution forthcoming. I figured *maybe* it's because everyone's already got their internet swords out ready to fight to the death based on the topic title alone.

 

Summary:

 

The Issue

 

Third person view currently offers an unrealistic ability to see around corners/over terrain as evidenced in this video (please try and ignore the bits where he talks about one being better or worse)

 

 

This results gameplay-wise in:

 

Asymmetric pvp - ambushes and/or snipers can be completely undetected whilst tracking other players. Most pvp will be decided by whoever is glitching the camera around walls the best to line up their shots or wait for their back to be turned and shoot before the enemy even has a chance to be aware of them. Reconnaisance of an area before moving in is futile because another player can watch you from an invisible position.

 

Easier pve - some smaller loot on wardrobes can't even be seen in first person mode, and third person players can scan behind objects in rooms without having to move around as much. Also, similarly to in pvp, the player can safely check corners for zeds without exposing themselves - this results in a third person player being able to safely move through areas faster and so not have to restock on as much food/water over the same distance.

 

Due to the pvp aspects, this has currently resulted in separate servers for 'first person purists' to play on.

 

So what's the problem?

 

It fractures the playerbase and creates argument between the two sides.

Some players cannot play FPS at all due to motion sickness and so if your group of buddies includes one, you're forced to join him on a server you might not like yourself.

There is no specific option on the server list to easily filter between modes (easy to fix I know!)

It completely changes the gameplay even before you throw other players in the mix.

 

Possible Solutions (that I can think of)

 

Keep it the same, never let the two player types mix and balance it the same for both modes -  Results in subpar gameplay for all (zeds too easy to avoid in 3PP or too hard in 1PP, loot over abundant for 3PP or lacking for 1PP). Smaller user populations for each mode.

 

Keep it the same, never let the two players mix and balance it independently for both modes - Smaller user populations for each mode, requires more balancing in beta stages.

 

Force all players to play on one type or another and remove the other entirely - One portion of the playerbase unhappy with the result, potential loss of players. (65+ page thread of pointless back and forth)

 

Fix the broken mechanic in 3PP by implementing LOS and removing anything that they wouldn't be able to see in 1PP to make an even playing field for all.

How this might work: http://youtu.be/g0fWg1UkGP8?t=14m8s / http://youtu.be/58cW0M2ek1A?t=3m40s - Everyone happy? Further devtime needed to implement

 

Something else... (I did try and read the whole 'remove third person' thread but over the 2hours it took, I might have missed some bits)

 

Before you post

 

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with either perspective. There are amazing games that have used each technique but each technique does have it's own pros and cons. Please don't just flame users of the other playstyle because they're doing it 'wrong' or are being 'elitist.'

 

And for anyone who thinks 3PP omnivision is working as intended by the devs:

 

"Just finished an amazing 3 hour round of DayZ on a 3PP:OFF server. In my opinion, players using 3PP rob themselves of part of the experience"

Hicks - https://twitter.com/Hicks_206/status/418847558702620672

 

"I want to remove...3rd person"

Rocket - http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/16p21g/overview_of_rockets_ama_from_today/

 

 

EDIT: Added 4th wall youtube demonstrations, thanks Jamz and KoS and Outlawled

 

EDIT2: Added developer comments, thanks Bad_Mojo

 

Just to remember u guys the first post and great idea this guy presenting. I like 3rd person, hate 3rd person wallhack. It is perfect solution. And yes, any 3rd person fans will agree or they just like the game breaking wallhack.

[Jabaskunda 2]

My idea:

Rename the third person view in "Focus view". When the Focus View is activated your man is really concentrated, but this mean hungry, thirsty (and a new bar for Sanity?) will empties faster than normal. 

[dallas 5195]

"I want to remove...3rd person"

Rocket - http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/16p21g/overview_of_rockets_ama_from_today/

After rereading the original post, I just felt a minor correction, would add some valuable context.

 

I want to remove the crosshair but I suspect we will have it configurable by servers. Same with 3rd person, but no firm decision is made yet we need to test everything out with you guys first

Edited January 13, 2014 by Dallas

[tommes 331]

Not having crosshairs alone forces people into using their ironsights and therefore 1PP more.

After some thinking I hope somebody will make the 4th wall working smoothly, maybe blur to out-of-view-areas of the screen, remove crosshairs and some effects for masks and helmets. I don't believe in the 3PP:off hive.

[n.mettala@gmail.com 5]

First-person and third-person views are both un-realistic.

[dallas 5195]

I don't believe in the 3PP:off hive.

For once we agree.

I think 3PP:off hives will only serve to limit FP players in the servers they can join. I don't understand the argument that TP will "easily" gear up on TP server, only to switch over to FP servers for combat. Why would a TP player switch to a FP server, if TP is what gives him an advantage in combat?

Gearing up has nothing to do with TP or FP, when you can simply jump on an empty server and have a good old free for all in TP or FP.

[Zeridian (DayZ) 5]

Removing the crosshair won't do anything people can still learn to shoot without it, and like the old days of Counter-Strike noobiness with AWP's, people will simply tape crosshairs onto their monitors. The solution presented in the OP is a very good one, but could be implemented a little cleaner and with some shader effects to smooth out units transitioning into view.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Zeridian

[tommes 331]

I think 3PP:off hives will only serve to limit FP players in the servers they can join. I don't understand the argument that TP will "easily" gear up on TP server, only to switch over to FP servers for combat. Why would a TP player switch to a FP server, if TP is what gives him an advantage in combat?

Gearing up has nothing to do with TP or FP, when you can simply jump on an empty server and have a good old free for all in TP or FP.

I don't know where that argument came from. Imo it's irrelevant.

It would be nice though if the quality of loot would be tied to a certain level of difficulty with the really nice stuff only spawning on servers with like hardcore settings. So there would be something to motivate players to try out playing with less crutches. But that would require a unified hive.

[tommes 331]

Removing the crosshair won't do anything people can still learn to shoot without it, and like the old days of Counter-Strike noobiness with AWP's, people will simply tape crosshairs onto their monitors. The solution presented in the OP is a very good one, but could be implemented a little cleaner and with some shader effects to smooth out units transitioning into view.

If players have to learn to shoot from the hip it's alright with me. It certainly ain't easy without having crosshairs.

Taping stuff onto thair monitors would be reserved to a view freaks. I wouldn't do it because the hassle outweighs the benefit for sure.

[TheMachine 803]

This is really a non-discussion. 

 

Just have servers that allow whichever people prefer. Only first person or first and third person - problem solved, everyone happy. 

[Zeridian (DayZ) 5]

This is really a non-discussion. 

 

Just have servers that allow whichever people prefer. Only first person or first and third person - problem solved, everyone happy. 

 

Stick your head in the sand much? People who play on third-person servers separate from those on FP only servers are still playing on hugely unequal and exploitable ground. It's bad gameplay and people here have the right to discuss ways to improve it. No one is saying take away the choice to have thirdperson, the OP offers a solution. Put simply: Get out.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Zeridian

[tommes 331]

We are drifting into the old circle if we go on like that.

How about something to make 3PP into something mostly inexploitable while still be of legitimate use?

[Ken Bean 175]

Stick your head in the sand much? People who play on third-person servers separate from those on FP only servers are still playing on hugely unequal and exploitable ground. It's bad gameplay and people here have the right to discuss ways to improve it. No one is saying take away the choice to have thirdperson, the OP offers a solution. Put simply: Get out.

The 3rd person view is not an exploit and therefore it doesn't need to be fixed.

 

Simple put: It's plain awesome. Way more than 1st p view.

Also you don't decide what is "bad gameplay".

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ken Bean

[gingatsu 68]

The 3rd person view is not an exploit and therefore it doesn't need to be fixed.

 

Simple put: It's plain awesome. Way more than 1st p view.

Also you don't decide what is "bad gameplay".

your comment is obsolete and baseless...

 

it IS an exploit to the FACT that you can see an area (while crouching behind a wall, or if you are on the corner of a building and you just watch from the corner if the area is free or not, which you NEVER would be able normally) which you actually shouldn't when you don't stick your head out...What does that mean? it means, that you actually do something which is physically not possible at all normally. And this game, is normally BASED to reality factors like, hunger, thirst, real world conditions and all that... You say you accept all those facts but you don't accept the fact that 3rd person camera is unrealistic huh?... it just suits you that you have something now you can exploit and you wouldn't know what to do if it were taken (coz simply given, you just are scared to pop your head around the corner coz you think you might get the bullet.Because this is exactly what you do aren't ya? you ambush people from places where you stay safe and you exploit this feat in order to get people)

 

just tell me how you do that in real life?... can you? no... so it IS an exploit actually...

 

the game gives you the freedom to use this, I even don't understand the developers why they do so, but I leave it to them.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

your comment is obsolete and baseless...

 

He's going to say it's not an exploit because it's in the game.

 

Also, he'll probably say that because 1st person isn't realistic, third person doesn't have to be either.

 

 

 

 

Stupid debates will never end.

Edited January 13, 2014 by bad_mojo

[nsane 3]

. . . It's killing the intended gameplay/immersion of the lead dev "I want to remove...3rd person" (source: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/16p21g/overview_of_rockets_ama_from_today/). . .

That's a very disingenuous partial quote.

 

 

 

I want to remove the crosshair but I suspect we will have it configurable by servers. Same with 3rd person, but no firm decision is made yet we need to test everything out with you guys first.

 

". . .but I suspect we will have it configurable by servers. Same with 3rd person. . ."

 

That is a much different thought than what you have in the OP.

[gingatsu 68]

He's going to say it's not an exploit because it's in the game.

 

Also, he'll probably say that because 1st person isn't realistic, third person doesn't have to be either.

 

 

 

 

Stupid debates will never end.

if the 1st person is not realistic in their opinion then they should sit on the PC and write a code which makes it look like realistic...

 

its quite fine now as it is... and like I posted before, a human does not have 180 degree seamless sight... you actually have about 60 degree clear sight and the rest falls under peripheral sight and gets blurr the more it stays on the edge... so you actually just can catch up movement or things likte that but you cannot see a focused clear view for 180 degree... and to the fact that some people say "yea you have eye reflexes and so on..." it still takes some seconds that you adjust your eyers and you still need to focus on the thing you think you have seen. So your sight is still 60 degree but the course has changed nothing else..

 

For my opinion the 1st person camera is quite ok as it is now. The thing is that those people just want the easy way around and that they do not want any challenges or use their brains at all... For the people with motion sickness... well the explanations has been given... and by the way... if you get motion sickness just from watching to the monitor while the character moves and so on.. the 3rd person camera should not give you any better relief coz there the motion still continues on.

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

I don't see how anyone can defend 3rd person view other than "I like it".

The exact same thing could be said for 1st person players. Nobody is forcing them to play in 1PV. It's a choice and small group of players like the immersion and realism of playing that way. But you don't HAVE to play that way. It's your choice because you "like it".

[svisketyggeren 662]

Funny story today...I was in chernogorsk on top of the silobuilding in the middle of town. By a misstake I had logged into a 3rd person server and suddenly bullets fly over my head...thinking the only possible place someone can shot at me is from the neightbouring building thats about the same height as the silo building. I return fire and take cover, so does the other player. Now on top of these buildings the only way to get down is by ladder...so trying to get down would mean the other had a clear shot. So im behind a wall, looking over to the next building using 3rd person...thinking "as soon as he puts his head out I go for a quick shot"...ofc being used to 1st person servers it dawns on me he is also looking over to me using 3rd person. Neither of us have any reason at all to stick our head out. About 3-4 mins later nothing has happend on the other side...by now I assume he logged out, I grab some food (real world food) and eat lunch while my screen is looking over to the other building...im not really playing now. And suddenly 10 mins later the other player fires of a burst and runs over to the ladder to get down. So all the time hes been sitting there on the other side using 3rd person to look over to my side...for like 15 mins! Im kinda perplexed and not sure if I wanna kill him or not.

 

Only on a 3rd person server could a firefirght be that stupid.

[floj 393]

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

 

Wargames 1983

Edited January 13, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[edsilver 1]

The exact same thing could be said for 1st person players. Nobody is forcing them to play in 1PV. It's a choice and small group of players like the immersion and realism of playing that way. But you don't HAVE to play that way. It's your choice because you "like it".

 

Actually besides we 'like' it is that it is how game is meant to be, U think devs want players to see zombies and other players around corners? If they creating survival game with all that thirst, hunger and blood they probably want it to be without wall hack. And it is difference in what u like about TP, your character view or the wall hack build into it makes the game broken. Probably many people who plays on TP servers likes to 3TP but are against wall hack, but since it is possible and everybody does it they use it too. SO i think leaving TP available but removing the players/loot/zombies from out of FP see in TP is best solution (for everyone except the kiddies who like things easy and don't understand that it is survival game based on realism).