Mod vs SA?

[GarethAUS 20]

Let me start this post by saying that I am NOT hating on this game

I am however making some statements based on what I have seen/done in game.

 

I spent my $30 to gain early access to this game knowing that it was an early alpha,

I am more than willing to give Dean and his team my money because I believe in the vision, 

But even being an early alpha I am a little dissapointed that the mod is in a better state 

given that the game has been in dev for over a year, Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that

making a game this complex is easy or anything or that I want a complete game overnight 

but lets look at some facts.

 

This game in its standalone form is using.

Map made from Arma 2

Engine from ToH

Around 10-15 generic interiors for all buildings

Sounds (Zombies) from the mod

 

 

Now lets look at the state of things, the mod at the moment has more weapons, 

zombies, animals and features in general.

 

so what has been done in the SA over the year of development,

so far we have a Revamped Ui and inventory system, we have new random buildings and city like areas, we have a new (Odd) hunger and thirst system, we have enter able buildings (Around 15 unique interiors),  we have a new weapon "the Mosin" and we have a degradation system for our stuff.

 

Now I am not sure if I am missing any features either in the mod or the SA, 

if you think of any please mention them,

the point I am trying to make is why after over a year of development is the mod still in a better place, given the pace of development I would say that it will be years before a retail release is even on the horizon.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

Now for those who TL:DR the thread....

The mod (IMO) is in a better place than the SA after 1 year of dev XD

 

Once again let me finish off by stating that I am not hating, in fact I am having fun testing this and am eagerly awaiting new features to test, I am just looking at things in a time vs features way.

 

Thanks for making it to the end of my post and please don't flame me for my opinions too badly XD.

 

 

[DropBearChick 1217]

you make a good point sir but you forgot something though it isn't a very valid point seeing as there still in SA (hackers), dean spent a lot of time remaking the server architecture to battle hackers

[LouisK 85]

Neither can be compared to each other. One is a mod, the other is a complete game (with it's own engine), which is on alpha and everything is either broken, not working as intended or incomplete. Deal with that or leave and return at a later stage of development. And even if we did compare, no, the mod isn't even comparable to the SA even at this stage.

 

Many people bought the SA and expected it to be the mod but 1000% better. No. Not even close. The SA is pretty much the mod but with better, more complex features. Or at least it will be.

Edited January 6, 2014 by LouisK

[GarethAUS 20]

you make a good point sir but you forgot something though it isn't a very valid point seeing as there still in SA (hackers), dean spent a lot of time remaking the server architecture to battle hackers

True I did indeed forget about the hackers, My friends and I have only run into hackers twice during our play time in the SA vs MANY MANY times in the mod so that is a big + for Dean and the dev team

[chucklemonkey 3]

the fact that I have yet to see a hacker makes the SA far and above the mod. I'm not a game developer, but I can imagine the "behind the scenes" aspects of what that year has entailed. I am sure that the mosin, interiors, and map upgrades have probably been the least of their worries.

[GarethAUS 20]

Neither can be compared to each other. One is a mod, the other is a complete game (with it's own engine), which is on alpha and everything is either broken, not working as intended or incomplete. Deal with that or leave and return at a later stage of development. And even if we did compare, no, the mod isn't even comparable to the SA even at this stage.

First the engine is not its own it is using the ToH engine with parts from Arma3, and please elaborate on why they can't be compared and how the SA is in such a better state, also as I stated I am having fun testing but as a tester these are my observations.

[LouisK 85]

First the engine is not its own it is using the ToH engine with parts from Arma3, and please elaborate on why they can't be compared and how the SA is in such a better state, also as I stated I am having fun testing but as a tester these are my observations.

 

You seem to fail to understand the concept behind a game engine. The fact that the engine is used in other things (which isn't, since modifying anything in an already existing engine already makes it a new engine) doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own engine. Every single game has an engine of it's own. The mod doesn't, because it's not a game and is running in different algorithims, languages and methods to function. Furthermore, engine implementation of the mod features makes it already incomparable, because neither you or me can understand or know what it takes to modify such engines as the source code is not open. That, sumed with the fact that direct engine != script makes both things incomparable (when it comes to which one has done it better).

 

SA Is already on a better state since engine modification is in no way comparable to scripts injections used in the mod, being the first WAY better and flexible from the software point of view. Having access to the engine itself makes anything possible, literally. Scripts however, are limited to what the engine can currently do.

Edited January 6, 2014 by LouisK

[GarethAUS 20]

the fact that I have yet to see a hacker makes the SA far and above the mod. I'm not a game developer, but I can imagine the "behind the scenes" aspects of what that year has entailed. I am sure that the mosin, interiors, and map upgrades have probably been the least of their worries.

True about the hackers, I am glad to have had little run ins with them.

[GarethAUS 20]

You seem to fail to understand the concept behind a game engine. The fact that the engine is used in other things (which isn't, since modifying anything in an already existing engine already makes it a new engine) doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own engine. Every single game has an engine of it's own. The mod doesn't, because it's not a game and is running in different algorithims, languages and methods to function. Furthermore, engine implementation of the mod features makes it already incomparable, because neither you or me can understand or know what it takes to modify such engines as the source code is not open. That, sumed with the fact that direct engine != script makes both things incomparable (when it comes to which one has done it better).

 

SA Is already on a better state since engine modification is in no way comparable to scripts injections used in the mod, being the first WAY better and flexible from the software point of view. Having access to the engine itself makes anything possible, literally. Scripts however, are limited to what the engine can currently do.

I see the point about the engine implementation, however the mod also altered the way the engine for Arma worked, in arma there is no melee at all for example Dean and his mod team added melee (as shown by the axe you needed to reload and made shooting sounds XD) Scripting was a huge problem for the mod and I am glad that is gone from the SA but really if you look at the engine and the flow of the game it still has the same awkward movement system that plagued the arma series.

Also thank you for having a civilized debate XD. 

[LouisK 85]

I see the point about the engine implementation, however the mod also altered the way the engine for Arma worked, in arma there is no melee at all for example Dean and his mod team added melee (as shown by the axe you needed to reload and made shooting sounds XD) Scripting was a huge problem for the mod and I am glad that is gone from the SA but really if you look at the engine and the flow of the game it still has the same awkward movement system that plagued the arma series.

Also thank you for having a civilized debate XD. 

 

No problem and for the record, the "melee" achieved in the mod is just a weapon with extremly low range and custom animation. Just give a pistol a hatchet model and modify it's values to fit a melee weapon. (Dispersion, range, etc.); Which by the way is a great improvement and a great example of what engine modification can achieve.

[HIHBGaming 14]

I see the point about the engine implementation, however the mod also altered the way the engine for Arma worked, in arma there is no melee at all for example Dean and his mod team added melee (as shown by the axe you needed to reload and made shooting sounds XD) Scripting was a huge problem for the mod and I am glad that is gone from the SA but really if you look at the engine and the flow of the game it still has the same awkward movement system that plagued the arma series.

Also thank you for having a civilized debate XD. 

 

The Mod can't alter the engine it can only alter what is allowed to be altered by the engine, so this is slightly a false view. Whereas the engine that the SA is on can be altered and tailored at engine level to however they see fit. All this stuff can and will be fixed and honestly the Mod and SA are completely different animals when it comes down to it.

[Reverence 12]

Yeah I think this whole alpha was released just to keep people interested. Now that all of us zombies have given Dean all the money he wants, why finish the game. He's gonna take his sweet ass time going and climbing mountains and traveling across the world and not finishing in the game. So in the end, he has our money, and pry doesn't have a strong intention in finishing the game ASAP.

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

Yeah I think this whole alpha was released just to keep people interested. Now that all of us zombies have given Dean all the money he wants, why finish the game. He's gonna take his sweet ass time going and climbing mountains and traveling across the world and not finishing in the game. So in the end, he has our money, and pry doesn't have a strong intention in finishing the game ASAP.

 

But they keep releasing updates?

[hrdrok 183]

The weapon system is great. Having attachments that you can actually remove is awesome. That probably wasn't easy and took some time. 

[Mos1ey 6301]

Well on top of the things like new UI/inventory system, models and building interiors that you mentioned a lot of the changes are things that can't be seen, for example the way that the client and server interact with each other and the way that zombies (which are nowhere near finished and are currently not working properly) and loot are handled as well as some security issues that have helped cut down on cheating considerably.

 

The weapons are completely new. For example, in ArmA 2, an M4 CCO was a completely seperate weapon from the M4 CCO SD, now the parts are interchangeable as well as item degradation for items and parts.

 

A lot of ArmA 3 assets have also been ported in, for example the lighting, compare the flashlight in DayZ to the one in ArmA 2.

 

All in all a lot of work has been done IMO. Please remember that the mod has been in development for much longer than the standalone game, so it makes sense that more progress will have been made there at this point, although DayZ has more potential and will eventually surpass it as development continues, due to the advantages of it being a purpose built game.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Mos1ey

[Reverence 12]

But they keep releasing updates?

Really, would you truely want to support and help the community? Then give up. Hand the SA over to the creators of BreakingPoint or Origins, people who actually have intent to get work done, to bring more to the game then some hand cuffs and a Payday 2 mask. In near a year of development on a recycled engine for a bloody helicopter sim, the team has done what? Remade a map, Improved a map, (Maps have been made a lot better by the community, such as Taviana, Namalsk..etc.) Added 4 Guns? WOW. Was a .357 that big of an update, a possible reskined FNX45. An obnoxious food and thirst system that constantly spams you with you are hungry in a chat system like you're really going for the realism. A failed sound system where random zombie noises and cans and drinks opened all over the map. A failed degrade system where some how you get shot in the leg and your gun is now destroyed. I can go on and on about how disappointing this has been. Back to your comment "But they keep releasing updates?" I don't consider fixing a few small things an update, that's just fixing something that should have already been fixed. The game was supposedly in testing for how many months? Holy cow did nothing get done or was the game outrageously bad then? .... etc. etc. etc.

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

New random buildings? Umm sorry but the buildings are not random. That would suggest it changes every time a server restarts which is not the case. The map has been revamped but in no way is it random in any sense of the meaning.

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

Neither can be compared to each other. One is a mod, the other is a complete game (with it's own engine), which is on alpha and everything is either broken, not working as intended or incomplete. Deal with that or leave and return at a later stage of development. And even if we did compare, no, the mod isn't even comparable to the SA even at this stage.

 

Many people bought the SA and expected it to be the mod but 1000% better. No. Not even close. The SA is pretty much the mod but with better, more complex features. Or at least it will be.

Actually they CAN and should be compared to one another. They are both DayZ. Both the same creator. One comes from the other.

[Zollicoffer 200]

Basic Alpha process:

 

1) Add feature

 

2) Collect data

 

3) Troubleshoot

 

4) Add fixes

 

5) Repeat x1,000,000

 

Steps 2 & 3 take the most time. Because large portions of the engine were rewritten to solidify the SA (which is what they have spent the last year doing), there were many features that needed to be rolled back to see how they would interact with the rebuild. Buying an alpha doesn't mean you're buying a quality game, it means you're buying a stake in the development process. We help with stage 2. The better the community is at that, the smoother the process will be.

Think of it like this: the mod was a crudely built addition to a house. The architectural styles didn't mesh very well, the decoration was off, and many things were held together with duct tape. Nonetheless, it was made into a very comfy home. The SA leveled the house to its foundation and hired professionals to reconstruct it properly, however we still have no furniture. Some day there will be a hot tub, a brand new kitchen, and toilets that flush automatically, but right now we're still doing the shopping. Dig?

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

I'm always defending this game but I am also a realist. I can see where a lot of the work has been done. What I don't understand is why such simple things have not been addressed. Things I could even do myself. Like a "you are dead" background. New Zombie sounds. Better Gun sounds. Lowering the volume of the ocean sound. etc etc. It seems they have been lazy in many areas of the game. Then other areas are amazing like the weapons being totally new and in parts, the inventory, the health system etc. I really am a little perplexed at these contrasts in attention to details.

[GarethAUS 20]

Yeah I think this whole alpha was released just to keep people interested. Now that all of us zombies have given Dean all the money he wants, why finish the game. He's gonna take his sweet ass time going and climbing mountains and traveling across the world and not finishing in the game. So in the end, he has our money, and pry doesn't have a strong intention in finishing the game ASAP.

This I do not agree with... Dean and his team are taking time off over the holidays, to Dean this is more than a game, this is something that he has been working on for a long ass time and it is finally coming together for him, he and his team will get it finished, lets please not derail this topic into a dev flame.