The KOS conundrum, problem/solution.

[McBonkhead 83]

I want to take a hard look at the current kill on sight (KOS) phenomenon here in Day Z Alpha. And present it in a way that is non-objective, with an emphasis on finding a way to make feel more like a post-apocalyptic zombie simulator, as apposed to what we have now. And yes, I know this is just a game; but it's a very realistic game, and that put's it square into the category of a true sim.

 

To start, what do we have now? Well, we have a place players can go to kill other players 'at will' with perma-death.

 

That to me is not a survival simulator, it's a psychopath simulator. Don't get me wrong – If that's what the devs are going for then go nuts (literally in-game insane). This level of heartless killing can very well be explained by a mental infection similar to the movie “The Crazies”. Great movie by-the-by. And I have seen the YouTube videos of people pretending to be serial killers in DayZ, now that is some seriously scarey fun.

 

But if this is a true survival game. A surviving the zombie apocalypse game, then most people would be just regular people. And for regular people, killing lots of other people would be very, very hard on the nerves. I would drive most insane actually - Now lets go down the rabbit hole a little bit:

 

About 1% of the population has a brain dysfunction variation of psychopathy. That is to say, they have a hard time with understanding other people's feelings and struggle with the idea of empathy (putting yourself in other people's shoes). That doesn't make them serial-killers, but it does make it a challenge for them to get along in everyday life. It could also make them hard-as-nails loners in a world full of zombies, so lets keep this in mind. The rest of us would try to survive, we would work together for the most part, for the good of all that is left of humanity – We really would.

 

The problem here is that in it's current state, DayZ is kill or be killed, without consequence.

 

You can argue till your blue in the face about this, but if this is a zombie simulator of ordinary people trying to survive. Then we would band together and fight the good fight, for the most part. And those that chose to start killing other people to just take their stuff, would defiantly feel the mental and physical repercussions of their actions. Ask any real life soldier that has seen combat, they will tell you just how traumatic - post traumatic stress disorder can be.

 

I propose that in DayZ, KOSing other players repeatedly would drive your character insane*. This could manifest as “the shakes” and be a serious physical penalty to motor-control. Aiming would get real hard and you would display all the classic signs of going bonkers:

 

Seeing and hearing things that aren't there. Paranoia will destroy ya.

 

Talking to yourself uncontrollably, this could be quite fun and weird for others to hear. It would also be a warning that this player has killed a lot of other players recently.

 

Running uncontrollably screaming or going into a fetal position could be an end result of a person on a killing spree. Oh, what fun.

 

*and as for that 1%. If this is a simulator, then a small portion of the populous would not feel any effects what-so-ever from KOSing other players. A good look at this aspect of society is investigated in the documentary “I am fishhead”. It talks mainly about the idea of the corporate psychopath, but it is very eye-opening to the whole subject matter in general, in my opinion.

 

In conclusion, I realize a lot of pro KOS players are going to hate this idea. And if this is a psychopathic-infection, serial-killer simulator then I would have to agree. It's defiantly a deadly “kill or be killed” world in DayZ Alpha.

 

But it's up to the devs to make a decision on this. And banding together to live to fight another hour, another precious minute... this is DayZ in all it's glory. I hope the future sees most of us trying to get the hell out of dodge.

 

Happy hunting everyone. ~Oh, and please add to this idea if you are so inspired!

 

Cheers!

Edited January 5, 2014 by McBonkhead

[wild_man 4442]

game + guns + multiplayer = murder happen :rolleyes:

 

is not phenomenon :huh:

[sigvatr 154]

KoS is not a problem. It is its own solution.

[kermo50 31]

Interesting idea's, in my opinion probably taking it a bit too far. I agree that some humanity mechanic would be great but in the end I just want a fun game not an ultra realistic simulation. I don't kos all the time I mostly try to help Bambi's once I'm kitted but getting in firefights is fun can you imagine how boring the game would be if everyone just worked together?

[Wolfguarde 108]

Very reasonable post, and your points are presented well. I like the idea, when it's put in this perspective. I would love to see my character start gibbering uncontrollably after killing enough unarmed players... probably counterproductive in my case, since I would actually go out of my way to achieve that state in every life my character leads.

That being said, I think the main issue with resolving the KoS mentality is that people don't really want to let go of it once they've sunk into it. I speak as one of them. I love the PvP element of the game, and its current brutality. I don't go hunting fresh spawns/unarmed players - I will shoot them if I find them while looting, since they are then a prospective threat if they find a weapon, since they know where I am, but otherwise I won't touch them - but I think it would be tricky to implement something like this without it being exploitable... and while it would definitely help with the KoS mentality, providing a disincentive to going nuts with everyone you meet, I don't think it would make enough of a dent to resolve the problem at large.

[Korsbaek 1778]

I didn't even bother reading it. There's been so many KoS topics the last days that I don't really bother anymore...

 

There isn't any solution right now. End game is achieved after around an hour, and then there's nothing left to do. That's why people shoot each other.

 

Edit: Okay, I read it because I felt like a dick not reading it. Insanity has been suggested before. A lot of times. Search function.

 

Now I feel like a dick again.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Korsbaek

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

With more long-term goals and features we'll hopefully see a bit less of that in general.

 

You can never get rid of it in this game. And in some ways it belongs to the game. Some people just play the game that way. But it's still a game.

 

They, depending on what they do ...

 

... can ruin the day of other people

... might probably never witness the interesting (happy end or not) player interaction we see and like in many videos

 

It's almost logical. You can't have it all. You either do this or that. But everything has pros and cons. If you play the game in a certain way, and only in that way (for example being a KOS loner ) then you miss out on some stuff. Sometimes it saves your skin, sometimes that's what gets you killed. You never know.

 

I just dislike being a dick in game. By that I mean things like ghosting or sitting on the coast killing unarmed people / fresh spawns for no real reason. Again, the game also permits you to do it and any player should eventually expect death. Apart from glitches.

 

But that doesn't necessarily mean you should always do what you can do, in my book. But then again my playstyle is a bit different. To each their own I guess.

[falkek 0]

Regardless of wether I like it or not, it seems to me like a "punishment" to bandits, so it's prolly never gonna happen.

[frosti 2165]

I didn't even bother reading it. There's been so many KoS topics the last days that I don't really bother anymore...

 

There isn't any solution right now. End game is achieved after around an hour, and then there's nothing left to do. That's why people shoot each other.

 

People also do need to make friends with randoms. And it's safer to kill randoms.

 

Also no bandit/survivoer/hero skins based on some humanity system.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Frosti

[philbottle 430]

Interesting idea :thumbsup:

 

Actions having cumulative consequences is a great idea, I really like it.

 

If you eat bad food you get ill in DayZ, so if you do horrible things then some strange physchocological tick or trait is an awesome idea. 

 

I can imagine our very own KoS walking round muttering to his gun about how he wants to do sexy time things to it, all without realising it :lol:

[starthealmighty 597]

the KOS mentality has been around since people started PvPing early in the mod 

 

it would be good to limit the amount of KOS, however players shouldn't be limited by killing other players 

Its apart of the game

 

If you're talking about it from its simulation roots, look at it this way

Look at the new textures and clothing, you can tell that the apocalypse has been around for awhile, 

once you take that into account you take away the "not many people would do bad things" idea, Just look at any zombie movie, A Prime example is The walking dead and how as the seasons progress it becomes more of a "if they look like they could be ever dangerous, shoot them"

 

Less KOS would be good

But finding ways to limit it cannot be based on limiting how people can play 

[Fabik 71]

 imagine how boring the game would be if everyone just worked together?

 

It would only be boring because there is nothing to work forward to. No objective.

 

Just a bunch of loonies fighting for guns and vehicles.

 

In this situation, in real life, my main concern wouldn't be to get a gun. I'd push north, east or west. Anything but staying in this stupid place...

Edited January 5, 2014 by Fabik

[Etherimp 1323]

I don't think you can add a lot of artificial and often arbitrary "punishments" for KOS.. People KOS for a variety of reasons. Sometimes I will KOS, most times I will not.

 

Times I will KOS

 

-I see someone who is armed (gun) and is wearing a Payday mask.. Yes, as silly as it is, I feel payday masks are picked up and used by people who want to look "scary".. If you want to look scary or intimidating then I feel you are the type of person who will shoot on sight anyway, so I won't give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

-Fully military geared with gasmasks and camo... People don't get geared up for PVP unless they are looking for PVP... Just like survivors don't don Ghillie Suits and sit on sniper hill in the mod unless they are looking to shoot freshspawns. Not to say everyone who wears military gear will kill you on sight, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

-When I find server hoppers/ghosters at NWAF.

 

-When I see fully geared players on the coast. (Balota, elektro, etc.).. If you're still on the coast and you're fully gear, odds are you're looking to kill fresh spawns. This may not always be the case (RhinoCrunch and his crew help fresh spawns), but again, better to be safe, than sorry.

 

 

So, you see, I have been conditioned by my environment to kill certain people on sight. If I see a survivor wearing civilian clothing and carrying a mosin on his back, I will probably approach him (cautiously) and talk to him, ask him if he needs any help.. And I have had others do the same for me. 

The problem is not that the game. The problem is the community. People want something to do and they want to use their guns. The way to "Fix" the KOS problem is to show the community through example how rewarding it can be to play as a hero.

 

Youtube: The Green Avenger DayZ, and you will laugh hysterically and it will make you want to take a similar approach. Watch RhinoCrunch's series on "Surviving DayZ Standalone", and he does some really cool things for fresh spawns.

 

These kinds of players/youtubers are good for DayZ, and if you want to fix the KOS "problem", the only way to do so is through your own actions. 

 

Another thing is.. Once Vehicles and other "end game" content are put in the game, groups of players will be required to get things done.. Usually this will just be players who have been playing together since the Mod (like my community) helping each other out and shooting outsiders.. There's nothing particularly wrong with this, as you still have people cooperating, and competition and rivalries arise, which brings a lot of action to the game.. keeps people playing if they're always trying to get one over on the competition.

 

 

TLDR: Before you preach about fixing the game, realize it's the community that has the KOS problem, not the game.. then realize that in order to change the community you have to change yourself first, and inspire others through your actions.

[karbiner 29]

There already is a solution for bambi's that get angry because they loose their gear every halfhour, its called wasteland :D

No seriously KoS is the best thing ever, walking from town to town slapping some zeds gets boring really fast > Having sick loot on the otherhand and then come under fire is a proper thrill :D

I don't want to get some penalty because I shoot some bambi that is running in a straight line towards me yelling "friendly".

Please get away from the myth that this is some humanitarian sim ;)

[Fabik 71]

I don't want to get some penalty because I shoot some bambi that is running in a straight line towards me yelling "friendly".

 

And what's the point of killing bambi ? You're already geared up. What does he have that you don't ?

[McBonkhead 83]

Ok, ok, ok.

 

I get the "it's not something to be punished" angle. That's definitely where most players are in agreement. I don't want any form of real long-term inhibition of player actions either. That's just no fun at all.

 

But adrenaline surges and checking your sanity at the door would be hella' fun. Think of it as temporary-insanity even, kill a lot of players in a row and it would unnerve your character, at the very least. It's another level of realism, in a game that takes so much realism into account.

 

I have to stress, the problem is not KOSing, it's the repercussions of KOSing as projected by our poor characters in a bat-shit crazy world.

[Etherimp 1323]

Ok, ok, ok.

 

I get the "it's not something to be punished" angle. That's definitely where most players are in agreement. I don't want any form of real long-term inhibition of player actions either. That's just no fun at all.

 

But adrenaline surges and checking your sanity at the door would be hella' fun. Think of it as temporary-insanity even, kill a lot of players in a row and it would unnerve your character, at the very least. It's another level of realism, in a game that takes so much realism into account.

 

I have to stress, the problem is not KOSing, it's the repercussions of KOSing as projected by our poor characters in a bat-shit crazy world.

 

 

There were a few aspects of the former humanity system which were "wrong".. I will outline it below..

 

1. If you were a hero, it encouraged you to maintain your hero status, which was good... however, you could often be tricked by survivors who just wanted to jack your shit, and whether they shot you first or not, you would be punished for killing them even if you had to in self defense.

 

2. If you were a survivor, you could maintain survivor status by doing banditry, so long as you gave it some time between each act, or so long as you were not the actual person doing the killing.. for example, you could run around with a group of 3 bandits, and bait heroes into your traps.

 

3. If you were a bandit, everybody shot you on sight.. bandits, heroes, and survivors alike, so it didn't exactly encourage you to change your ways.

[karbiner 29]

And what's the point of killing bambi ? You're already geared up. What does he have that you don't ?

They have melee weapons and I'd rather be save than sorry(and therefore alive)

Hell I don't even hunt for the fuckers:)

Edited January 5, 2014 by KarbineR

[sigvatr 154]

I think bandits and murderers would be the sole remainder of the human race during a zombie apocalypse through natural selection. In a world where acquisition of material that was once owned by another is paramount to survival, I believe the disinclination towards taking the possessions of others by force or theft would be broken down.

 

The problem is actually in your own head: by not killing others your odds of survival are significantly decreased. Morality makes you weaker and more predisposed to extinction. In an ecosystem where one collective group (ie. species) must compete with another variant collective for resources, even the slightest advantage by trait or circumstance in favor of one species will inevitably lead to its eventually victory by extinction of the other, whether through force or competition.

 

You might believe that trusting others and restraining yourself from destroying them makes you a stronger human being than those who don't, but this is true only to the ecosystem (civilization) that we currently inhabit. By natural selection, the human beings that are cooperative with one another have come out to have a significant numerical advantage to those who do not, which essentially means your beliefs and ideals are simply a matter of ecology and at the lowest level biology, even. Many millennia ago, the abstract collective of the human race with predisposition towards violence and enforcing competition had the numerical advantage but has since slowly dwindled as the ecosystem became radically transformed.

 

In the event of a zombie apocalypse or similar catastrophic event that renders society inoperable (ie. breakdown of civilization), the ecosystem would be radically changed again and the very essence of human existence redefined by those who survive natural selection.

 

You are electing to adopt the strategy of a near-extinct genus of homo sapiens and that itself renders you a profoundly significant disadvantage. The inevitable outcome of this competition is the subjugation or extinction of your genome.

 

Basically you are stupid and are going to die.

[Fabik 71]

There were a few aspects of the former humanity system which were "wrong".. I will outline it below..

 

1. If you were a hero, it encouraged you to maintain your hero status, which was good... however, you could often be tricked by survivors who just wanted to jack your shit, and whether they shot you first or not, you would be punished for killing them even if you had to in self defense.

 

2. If you were a survivor, you could maintain survivor status by doing banditry, so long as you gave it some time between each act, or so long as you were not the actual person doing the killing.. for example, you could run around with a group of 3 bandits, and bait heroes into your traps.

 

3. If you were a bandit, everybody shot you on sight.. bandits, heroes, and survivors alike, so it didn't exactly encourage you to change your ways.

 

Make humanity reset on respawn.

 

This way each avatar is unique and you can choose to roleplay it anyway you like.

 

Each spawn is different. This is not the same person coming back again and again...

[Fabik 71]

They have melee weapons and I'd rather be save than sorry(and therefore alive)

Hell I don't even hunt for the fuckers:)

And if he has no melee weapon ? :)

[McBonkhead 83]

There were a few aspects of the former humanity system which were "wrong".. I will outline it below..

 

1. If you were a hero, it encouraged you to maintain your hero status, which was good... however, you could often be tricked by survivors who just wanted to jack your shit, and whether they shot you first or not, you would be punished for killing them even if you had to in self defense.

 

2. If you were a survivor, you could maintain survivor status by doing banditry, so long as you gave it some time between each act, or so long as you were not the actual person doing the killing.. for example, you could run around with a group of 3 bandits, and bait heroes into your traps.

 

3. If you were a bandit, everybody shot you on sight.. bandits, heroes, and survivors alike, so it didn't exactly encourage you to change your ways.

Thank you for this! I agree, not a great system, full of reward/punishment and labeling. Too... gamey. 

 

I'm proposing real life cause-and-effect simulation of actions. Not judgmental morality calls, that's for the players to decide.

 

And for those that skipped over my initial post because of the subject matter. I encourage you to chew through it. It's not what you think, me thinks. It's the simulation of horror in a horror game. And that to me, is freaky fun.  

[Fabik 71]

I think bandits and murderers would be the sole remainder of the human race during a zombie apocalypse through natural selection. In a world where acquisition of material that was once owned by another is paramount to survival, I believe the disinclination towards taking the possessions of others by force or theft would be broken down.

 

The problem is actually in your own head: by not killing others your odds of survival are significantly decreased. Morality makes you weaker and more predisposed to extinction. In an ecosystem where one collective group (ie. species) must compete with another variant collective for resources, even the slightest advantage by trait or circumstance in favor of one species will inevitably lead to its eventually victory by extinction of the other, whether through force or competition.

 

You might believe that trusting others and restraining yourself from destroying them makes you a stronger human being than those who don't, but this is true only to the ecosystem (civilization) that we currently inhabit. By natural selection, the human beings that are cooperative with one another have come out to have a significant numerical advantage to those who do not, which essentially means your beliefs and ideals are simply a matter of ecology and at the lowest level biology, even. Many millennia ago, the abstract collective of the human race with predisposition towards violence and enforcing competition had the numerical advantage but has since slowly dwindled as the ecosystem became radically transformed.

 

In the event of a zombie apocalypse or similar catastrophic event that renders society inoperable (ie. breakdown of civilization), the ecosystem would be radically changed again and the very essence of human existence redefined by those who survive natural selection.

 

You are electing to adopt the strategy of a near-extinct genus of homo sapiens and that itself renders you a profoundly significant disadvantage. The inevitable outcome of this competition is the subjugation or extinction of your genome.

 

Basically you are stupid and are going to die.

 

This is a setting where STUFF PERIODICALLY SPAWNS IN KNOWN PLACES. Hell, even PEOPLE RESPAWN !!!

 

This is not real life. Don't talk about realism...

Edited January 5, 2014 by Fabik

[karbiner 29]

And if he has no melee weapon ? :)

They always have a melee weapon? You've just proven you know nothing about this game and how to play it.

[sigvatr 154]

If you eat bad food you get ill in DayZ, so if you do horrible things then some strange physchocological tick or trait is an awesome idea.

 

Fuck your stupid magical thinking, you need to take a lot of drugs and reformat your antiquated brain.

 

Morality is an abstract sociological phenomena and the end result of variable circumstances and processes. It cannot be the progenitor of action or the expenditure of energy because it is only an idea some human beings elect to share a common definition for. It isn't magic; the origin and source of morality can be precisely traced and defined.

 

Seriously, go find some magic mushrooms and eat them.