KOS Hysteria

[frembo 0]

Cry some more..I'm immersed in the game..it's the zombie apocalypse..who knows if that group we're trading supplies with will kill us in the process or after. The newspawns are not to be trusted, 9 out of 10 of them doesn't want our help, they want our gear.

After getting geared up on the north we went back south, where the newspawns obviously are, guess what? If they weren't killing eachother, they were trying to sneak on us and kill us. They didn't make it.

 

I've been a newspawn, my character got reset or killed by invisible zombies with end-game gear lots of times. I know what to do to get my stuff back without hacking. I'm friendly when I need to be. If someone points a gun at me and tells me to stop, I won't run around like a decapitated chicken like the majority of those shits do.

 

My attitude in this game brings me nothing but victory and personal in-game benefit for me AND for my group.

So basically, you go north to gear up, then back down south to kill defenseless players... Oh, and by the way, if you held people up you would be surprised to see how many players would gladly oblige, instead of being shot, especially if you're in a group, that's just common sense on both sides... If you really want a fight, you could just go up north with your group, then you'd get an evenly matched fire fight. If you have the mentality that every fresh spawn is a threat (which is odd considering you ARE in a group + fully kitted) then you're going to find your self never finding any friendlies because you're so damn paranoid, which I'm guessing has already happened to you anyway so never mind. Groups like yours are the main reason I have to end up killing groups of 3 or more that keep getting too trigger happy and raising their guns and/or trying to get behind me at all the wrong times. The pack mentality makes you think you're more clever than you actually are.

[razgriz93@gmail.com 228]

Packs are funny. They are way less dangerous than a lone wolf, because they think they are invincible or something and end up doing stupid stuff.

[hells high 676]

Traveling with friends is a good way to make sure people hesitate before opening up on you. I've run into 3 or 4 people with my friends that just started playing with me. We approach with caution and weapons raised, then ask if they need anything/would like to trade.

 

Honestly, its the apocalypse and people are desperate; some are just dicks as well but you can't really combat that in a virtual environment where death is an inconvenience. I think once we get some more zombies and they become more of a threat, people will be more willing to stick together to survive.

[wanji 6]

Ive been killed many times while gearing up on the coast, I don't have a problem with it. I played the mod since shortly after it came out and I really don't see the KOS problem, it's part of the fundamental game play. You can only play 'survival' so long.

[Flagella 69]

People can do what they want.

Stop getting mad at bandits for having fun trolling people and noobs going spaz

Wait for zombies to come

It's alpha

Calm your tits

[AP_Norris 1018]

Things to do in Sweet-Alpha.

 

1. Gear Up.

2. Kill Players.

2. Kill Players.

2. Kill Players.

2. Kill Players.

2. Kill Players.

2. Kill Players.

2. Kill Players.

1. Gear up/ attempt to have friendly encounters.

2. Look for people to help out/ kill if they shoot at you.

3. Die from lucky bandit, doesn't matter had a good mix of friendly and unfriendly encounters.

4. Make world a worse place for bandits and a better one for friendlies - godly status achieved.

[tullyburnalot 26]

Hello, long-time mod player here, bought the standalone a few days after it came out...

 

In my personal experience back in the mod, stuff wasn't that different. You can go on and on and on about how KOS wasn't this much of an issue in the mod (which I've seen plenty of people do). You would be lying. KOS has always been, and will always be, a problem.

 

No matter how many features you add, KOS will be around, and it will still be a problem. Why?

 

Because it's simpler. Really, that's just it.

 

You think adding features will stop people KOSing? Why should it? It'll still be easier to shoot first and ask no questions. No manner of features in-game will change player mentality. I said it before and I'll say it again: DayZ is what the PLAYERS make of it, not the devs. And, sadly, most players don't really care enough to have any sort of human interaction beyond point-and-click.

 

So unless you can find a way to change player mentality en masse, KOS is never gonna go away.

[AP_Norris 1018]

^ I would say KoS is slightly lower.

Maybe it is just the rarity of guns, and people are hiding because I had a gun.

I only ever died while armed with only melee as it stands... Sooo.

[mattyando 0]

I only find KOS an issue at military spawns, most people I have met have been OK after i shout friendly a few times, did try and help a fresh spawn the other day by killing a zombie chasing him, he asked for some water and as I dropped some he ran at me fists raised punching haha.

He got an axe to the face in return but hey ho, it's the only person who tried to betray me so far.

[Leslie Kean 1]

Traveling with friends is a good way to make sure people hesitate before opening up on you. I've run into 3 or 4 people with my friends that just started playing with me. We approach with caution and weapons raised, then ask if they need anything/would like to trade.

 

Honestly, its the apocalypse and people are desperate; some are just dicks as well but you can't really combat that in a virtual environment where death is an inconvenience. I think once we get some more zombies and they become more of a threat, people will be more willing to stick together to survive.

 

 

I agree with you.

.......But I would like to see this. (maybe it's a bad idea, but this is what I would like to see)

 

- A lot more zombies.

- Random spawns points of zombies (more unpredictable).

- A variety of zombies with a different approach to attacking humans.

- When a player dies, he then becomes a zombie

- A lot more guns and ammo 

 

Of course, you don't want DayZ to become an arcade game with just constant shooting at zombies.

But if the zombies are by far the main threat, players would help each other out a lot more.

 

Zombies I don't fear. It's people I fear.

 

When I see zombie movies, the main threat are zombies. Of course, like in Dawn of the Dead, humans kill humans sometimes.

 

ANyway, this is not a complaint. I'm loving the game. And it's only alpha and it will get better.

[blacklabel79 949]

It's alpha

Calm your tits

 

 

this for the next YEAR !

[RicHSAD 2]

KoS is not a problem. In fact, it is precisely what makes DayZ so exciting. The fact that you don't know if the next player you run into is going to shoot you or not is what makes the game so tense and thrilling. DayZ would quickly lose it's charm if everyone was friendly all the time or if killing on sight became impractical due to stupid anti-KoS features.

 

Now, I'm not saying that everyone should just be running around shooting everyone in sight, but DayZ is a survival game and how you choose to interact with other players is entirely up to you. You only have one life and sometimes shooting first is the only way to guarantee your survival.

[Element47 2480]

KoS is not a problem. In fact, it is precisely what makes DayZ so exciting. The fact that you don't know if the next player you run into is going to shoot you or not is what makes the game so tense and thrilling. DayZ would quickly lose it's charm if everyone was friendly all the time or if killing on sight became impractical due to stupid anti-KoS features.

 

Now, I'm not saying that everyone should just be running around shooting everyone in sight, but DayZ is a survival game and how you choose to interact with other players is entirely up to you. You only have one life and sometimes shooting first is the only way to guarantee your survival.

this. i logged into some PvE oriented dayz variant once. it was awful.

[tullyburnalot 26]

KoS is not a problem. In fact, it is precisely what makes DayZ so exciting. The fact that you don't know if the next player you run into is going to shoot you or not is what makes the game so tense and thrilling. DayZ would quickly lose it's charm if everyone was friendly all the time or if killing on sight became impractical due to stupid anti-KoS features.

 

Now, I'm not saying that everyone should just be running around shooting everyone in sight, but DayZ is a survival game and how you choose to interact with other players is entirely up to you. You only have one life and sometimes shooting first is the only way to guarantee your survival.

 

That's the issue, though. KoS DOES become a problem if 95% of all player-to-player interactions begins and ends with Player 1 shooting Player 2.

[RicHSAD 2]

That's the issue, though. KoS DOES become a problem if 95% of all player-to-player interactions begins and ends with Player 1 shooting Player 2.

 

It's only an issue when you don't understand the nature of the game. When you have everything you need and the only threat to you and your group are other players, shooting first is almost always the quickest, safest and easiest way to eliminate the threat. I don't think it is fair to fault some/most players for taking the path of less resistance. Like I said, it is often the only way to guarantee your survival.

 

If you want to go around and try to make friends in a post-zombie apocalypse world be my guess, but don't act surprised when most other players don't share your optimism. Some will want what you have and some will just want to protect what they have at all cost. It is all part of the game.

Edited January 5, 2014 by RicHSAD

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

I could also argue that all the realism / survival arguments in favor of KOS are just paranoid people hanging onto their gear which was probably obtained within 2 hours or so.

 

KOS = Kill on sight. Well, if the unarmed guy in civilian clothing 100m away is a threat to an armed group, too, then I dunno. Play as you like, just don't expect that everyone likes how you play. Goes for all sides.

 

There's pros and cons for everything. But know that the argument of "it would be boring if all were to hold hands and do PVE" goes both ways. It would also be f'in boring if all would just shoot each other because, oh no, that "freshspawn" 500m away NEEDS to be sniped because he COULD be(come) a threat to my group decked out in mil gear.

 

Slight exaggeration there, just to get the point across. PVP is ok. Happens a lot. I don't like a general community wide KOS mentality though. Thank god I hear enough reports of this not being the case, at least not every time every place.

 

But again, just wait for more features and there'll be more stuff to do. Stuff that encourages teaming up. KOS loners can only do so much.

[tullyburnalot 26]

It's only an issue when you don't understand the nature of the game. When you have everything you need and the only threat to you and your group are other players, shooting first is almost always the quickest, safest and easiest way to eliminate the threat. I don't think it is fair to fault some/most players for taking the path of less resistance. Like I said, it is often the only way to guarantee your survival.

 

If you want to go around and try to make friends in a post-zombie apocalypse world be my guess, but don't act surprised when most other players don't share your optimism. Some will want what you have and some will just want to protect what they have at all cost. It is all part of the game.

 

Thing is, I'm not trying to make friends. It's just that the current general attitude has led to me essentially trying to actively avoid any sort of player interaction because I KNOW I'm gonna end up getting shot regardless.

 

And you can only really go alone so far without the game getting boring.

[Tactical Soldier Gaming 20]

Obviously KoS is always going to be around, but consequences should be brought about, and I think the devs are definitely on top of this... considering the systems they have implemented into the game, and hopefully will continue to build upon, for example:

 

Item Quality: The quality of items actually can be ruined by shooting people, depending on where you shoot them.  So shooting someone can actually ruin the items that you were hoping to get, unless you're just KoS'ing for fun, in which case we have:

 

Sickness: Although I don't think much happens to you but death if left untreated, I would like to see some other types of sicknesses like things that requires other players to help you with to become "cured".  This could make banding together more useful.

 

Ammo/Guns: I actually think that these need to be much rarer.  In a zombie apocalypse what's the first thing that comes to mind in terms of survival? Guns.  Everyone will be after them, it seems that withing an hour of scavenging I can almost always assuredly find a gun and ammo.  Give me 4 hours.. time to search a military base and an airfield, and I've probably got 100+ round of ammunition for my M4 decked out with an ACOG flashlight and Magpul Stock.  When really it should take that long for me to find a crappy damaged pistol with maybe three bullets.  I realize the importance of guns in this game, and that they make the game "fun".  But I seriously doubt that Rocket's intent with DayZ is to make it an "arcadey zombie shoot em' up game".  Also, to me at least, spending 4 hours playing the game, and then finally finding a glorious M4, with maybe twenty bullets in a mag, would be a great feeling, and having that rarity would make players think twice before wasting their ammo on a helpless player.

 

Zombies:  Zombies aren't very scary in DayZ, and I think I read a post somewhere that said Rocket's intentions were to make the players the antagonist in DayZ, while Zombies where just sort of the back story to the game.  I also think that Zombies could be a bit scarier, for instance, they could be WAY more attracted to sound, like firing a mosin in Elektro would send a flock of Zombies to come rape your face.  I also think they should spawn in hoards, most animals that are predators hunt in packs, in predatory state Zombies would act the same way, this coupled with my idea for Ammo/Guns would be really effective at making this game better, and warding off KoS.  

 

I'd like to say that I'm not against killing people, all for it actually, but I believe that any respectable bandit would be more intelligent and cunning than to resort to KoS, this is why handcuffs were made, and force feeding, and taking blood.  This game is at its highest when it's played realistically.  

[fig0451 85]

Look, the major reason why player experiences with KOS are so shitty is because there is literally no way to to know who will kill you and who won't, so it quickly devolves into a stable solution of both parties attempting to kill each other as the most logical response. Basic game theory.

Game theory can also offer some insights into how to potentially solve the problem; basically, costly signalling and reputation.

 

Costly signals:

The best I can think of for this is something like putting your gun on the floor, putting your hands up, approaching someone with your weapons stowed, things like that. All of these things, to some extent, sacrifice the ability of the player turn and murder you, while giving the other party a relative advantage. If both parties reciprocate with costly signals, you're got a pretty good chance of things going smoothly, although someone could still always pull out a concealed pistol.

 

Reputation:

Technically reputation is a costly signal, but it gets its own category here due to the way the game works. As it stands in the game currently, there is no way to have a reputation as there is no real way to distinguish one person from another. There's nothing like a badge you can put on your arm. The closest proxy is judging people by what they are wearing, which kind of works, but isn't really that full proof.

A model of a good reputation system would include a system of distinct identification combined with some kind of ability to rate player interactions. Say if you had a good experience with someone, you could basically upvote their reputation. How would something like this ever be implemented in DayZ? I have no idea.

Further, from a gameplay perspective, it doesn't help that life is unfortunately worth very little, as anyone with a few days experience can go from newspawn to fully loaded out in about 3 hours max. Possibly the only thing that makes any particular life intrinsically valuable is if it is O- or O+ blood type. Many things could change this, such as zombies becoming a legitimate threat for people with guns and lots of ammo, making certain useful game activities only possible or feasible with multiple people, etc.

Also, keep in mind that nothing that I've mentioned will fundamentally break the ability of KOS to exist. Even with costly signals, some kind of robust reputation system and more game features designed for multiple players, somebody could always turn on you at any moment. You can never be 100% sure.

[fuckasshole 7]

I'll kill all you princesses on site cause I'm hood like that. Theres no other reason to play this game and it doesnt reward you otherwise so me and my crew own the streets.

[Wolfguarde 108]

They've designed the game for the griefers.

 

"We'll stop KOS by adding handcuffs, rotten fruit, force feeding and the ability to take blood from other players."

 

So, do you try and be friendly with a high possibility to be left almost dead, or just kill everyone you see?

 

I've met a total of 2 players who didn't try to kill me, armed or not. Not counting launch day.

 

I would say that they've designed the game so that it doesn't penalise griefing - rather than being designed for griefing. There is a difference.

I've noticed there's a common trend in games with this kind of theme - inevitably, someone will come on and start complaining that the game encourages griefing, penalises playing fair, etc, etc... and yes, in some cases, it's true to a degree. Rarely have I actually played a game/server that encourages griefing, though... the mentality snowballs because it's a good way to demonise a gameplay style that conflicts with their ideal play experience, and eventually results in people leaving with the rest of the herd when nothing is done.

I applaud Rocket and co. for the angle the game is taking, even as I despair that it won't last as long as it deserves to. Inevitably, either people will whine enough to enforce some kind of change that limits freedom of expression within the game, or it will start losing players because of the aforementioned herd mentality/syndrome. 

Putting things a different way: You're running in a group, get into a firefight, one of your party members is losing blood. You bandage him once you get away, but he's passing out frequently and not able to move as fast as he should be. One of your group members is on full energy/water and unharmed. You can take some of his blood and use it to get your other, wounded teammate up to speed.

You're watching a bandit player rob someone with no weapon. You have handcuffs and a fire extinguisher. You come up from behind, knock him out, cuff him and steal his gear. You may or may not choose to help the victim of the robbery - but assuming you don't just kill the bandit, you've neutralised the threat he poses and left him open to retribution from said victom once you leave. Justice is served.

 

Or you force feed said bandit rotten food. He gets sick, loses blood, energy, and water. You make some distance before he's able to move again. Instead of coming after you, he now has to find a way to free himself and restore his health and supplies before he's in any condition to chase you down. Since he doesn't know who you are, it's unlikely he's going to be able to properly follow you unless he has a teammate tailing you and voice communication outside the game to work out where he is.

People are too eager to look at the negatives with mechanics like these. Think beyond the immediate applications of the mechanics you see to ways you can turn them on their heads. The game designers have done so, and it is their hope with mechanics like these that you will too, and have a better game experience for it.

 

I have run in to like maybe 15 people in the last 2 weeks or so, and I have never been shot at. Am I just extremely lucky to meet just nice guys, or are you guys bad at social interactions?..

I would say you're lucky... that none of them had ammo ;P

[jasher11 67]

after reading the topic i do kinda agree with the poster, i played the DayZ mod as i bought it in the winter sale (after owning standalone and player 20+ hours) and immediately on the mod (epoch) on a private hive, after using side chat for asking help with what is this for, where is a good place to get loot, do i need a toolbox for this etc... i have met someone in game who has driven over to meet me, and helped me out a bunch with gear and food, then i managed to join a group of 4 who have bases an army of vehicles etc. everyone is freindly even the person that killed me cuz he thought i was trying to run him down at NWAF.

 

And yet in the standalone the only freindlies i have met are those without weapons because they know its futile trying to kill someone with anything other than Axe of firearm. i dont like this it makes me sad, hopefully when there are objectives like basebuilding and so on then people will be to busy with that to kill others 

[QUAZIMOFO 275]

I'll kill all you princesses on site cause I'm hood like that. Theres no other reason to play this game and it doesnt reward you otherwise so me and my crew own the streets.

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

I'll kill all you princesses on site cause I'm hood like that. Theres no other reason to play this game and it doesnt reward you otherwise so me and my crew own the streets.

 

Just because you see no other way to play the game does not mean there is no other way, though ;)

 

And other ways of playing the game can be rewarding. It depends on what you're into, but saying "This and that is generally wrong" is ... well, wrong.

[Hershel Green 46]

Fuck 'em. I kill for the good of me and my group. Yesterday EVERYONE got reset and in 2 hours we were fully geared up again.......

 

You where fully geared up with a group within 2 hours.....nice job server hopper...