Accuracy comparison: DayZ vs ARMA 2

[radivmoe 47]

But it said that it did not post!

Edited January 7, 2014 by radivmoe

[radivmoe 47]

OH GOD THE HORROR!

Edited January 7, 2014 by radivmoe

[radivmoe 47]

when i already have a spare post, does the magpul handguard actually make a difference, or is it just the buttstock?

Edited January 7, 2014 by radivmoe

[wgaf 251]

Single best thing they can do with weapons is make you zero any sight or optic before it accurately aims where the bullets go.

 

Also, none of this "100m up" stuff, make it all in quarter MOA and make people look it up and do the math. 

[Etherimp 1323]

There's a really easy way to prove which argument here is valid and which is absolute horse poo.

 

 

Take both arguments to their most extreme ...

 

 

Let's start with the argument that guns should function realistically.. That is, we input actual numbers from real models. Things like Muzzle Velocity, Point Blank Range, Bullet Drop, Recoil, etc. Then, you leave those numbers at what they are, and do not add any compensation for your character being a civilian.

 

What happens in this case? Guns respond in a predictable manner. Players learn how each gun reacts and they compensate accordingly. They learn, for example, that the AK-47 kicks like a bull, so they learn to pull down on the crosshair when firing. They learn that the Silenced M4 does less damage, has a slower round, and drops earlier.. So they aim higher and they lead their target more and they tend to fire more rounds than they would with a regular M4.

In this scenerio, the PLAYER (not the character), is learning how to use each weapon in the game. A skilled player will have advantages over an unskilled player, as he will know at which range it is best to engage, how much to lead the target, and how high/low to aim in order to increase the probability of a headshot.

 

Even if you make every gun dead accurate with absolutely no recoil, no bullet drop, no travel time, and no dispersion, you are still relying upon the skill of the player to line up the crosshair on someones head, and whoever gets better at shooting heads the fastest is the better player.

What's wrong with this? In my opinion, nothing.. Seems logical.

 

 

Now let's look at the potential for the other side of the argument..

 

Guns should have built in dispersion because the game assumes that the civilian is untrained and unable to properly fire a gun.

 

So what happens? Guns act unpredictably, and both the skilled and unskilled PLAYER cannot reliably hit a target because no matter how much time they have spent playing the game the guns are equally as unreliable. The more dispersion a weapon has the worse everyone gets at the game. If you add 1000000 dispersion, your bullets just randomly fire all over the place, and every gun fight turns into holding down the fire button until someone is dead.

 

How is this fun, or rewarding? There's no possible way to accurately predict how individuals in a realistic situation are going to handle guns. The reality is, (as this forum demonstrates), some people have never fired a gun in their life and some people have fired occasionally, while others are extremely proficient with certain fire arms. Some people are naturally gifted with good eye sight and fast reflexes while others are naturally uncoordinated. Some kids grew up being taught how to shoot guns from a very young age while others are scared to death of guns and don't want anything to do with them. These factors already come through from the player, and do not need to be imposed upon the character. The determining factor of who wins a gun fight should be the skill of the PLAYER not the LUCK OF THE CHARACTER.

 

End of rant. Carry on with your non-sense bullshit arguments about "civilians can't hit the broad side of a barn".. If you're so convinced of that logic, then how about you stand 200 meters from a 5 year old with an AK-47 and bet your life on how many shots he has to fire before he puts a bullet in your chest or head. 

Edited January 7, 2014 by Etherimp

[SkillthoLaggins 2]

For a hilarious example of SA accuracy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-dkiI5mK04#t=7m30s

[-Gews- 7443]

^Here's another example of the poor accuracy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIYmjwpvRNc#t=2m32s

 

I don't like this Youtuber but that's beside the point.

 

 

 

 

when i already have a spare post, does the magpul handguard actually make a difference, or is it just the buttstock?

 

Both, both by the same amount as well.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Gews

[dgeesio 1034]

one thing i miss from the mod is the amazing standard crosshair. i don't particularly like the dot we have now. its better than the stupid circle we had but not as good as the two small lines with the dash in the middle from arma 2 that was perfect especially hip fire.

[SkillthoLaggins 2]

one thing i miss from the mod is the amazing standard crosshair. i don't particularly like the dot we have now. its better than the stupid circle we had but not as good as the two small lines with the dash in the middle from arma 2 that was perfect especially hip fire.

I'd prefer no crosshair at all and judge shoulder/hip firing by the angle of the gun like in red orchestra.

[Deathlove 2286]

I actually found an M14 but i decided to keep the Mossin being its a more accurate gun at a farther range with sight. That and less parts to maintain meaning i dont have to run to military places to get what i need.

[Biskwits 5]

i personally feel that the hit and miss factor of shooting in the standalone is somewhat very realistic, your supposed to be a every day average joe that is trying to survive in a zombie apocalypse, if you found a gun lying on the floor and picked it up and started shooting it the fact is you'd proberly hit 2-5 bullets out of a 30 mag.

 

how ever if you had that weapon for some time and have been shooting it, cleaning and keeping it maintained then you'd become a damn handy shot with it in time.

i dont know if they could implent this into the game somehow but if they did it would make picking and keeping your weapon of choice in tiptop condition and not running around picking up everygun you come across.

 

i just think it brings a sence of reality to the game which is what DayZ is kinda aiming for.. a realistic post zombie apocolypse.

[piru 13]

i personally feel that the hit and miss factor of shooting in the standalone is somewhat very realistic, your supposed to be a every day average joe that is trying to survive in a zombie apocalypse, if you found a gun lying on the floor and picked it up and started shooting it the fact is you'd proberly hit 2-5 bullets out of a 30 mag.

 

Atleast when I was in the defence force most people with absolutely no prior experience with guns(me included) were hitting a mans chest sized target constantly with their 10 very first shots at 150meters from a prone position if the sights were even remotely correct using an Rk62 and iron sights. Its not rocket science realy. After the initial 3x10 round adjustments you actually could get decent groupings in the middle(ish).

 

Now if you by average joe mean someone who tries to go all John Woo maybe then...

[Tiger205 48]

Wait, wait, wait. So the ugly Magpul parts actually have some artificial influence on accuracy like some badly designed MMORPG? What the fuck rocket?

[-Gews- 7443]

Wait, wait, wait. So the ugly Magpul parts actually have some artificial influence on accuracy like some badly designed MMORPG? What the fuck rocket?

 

It gets worse

[Tiger205 48]

It gets worse

 

What. What more did he fuck up.

[-Gews- 7443]

^

 

-all scopes have incorrect magnification (PU 1.39x, ACOG 1.56x, "Long-Range" 5x)

-iron sights have less magnification than your player's normal eyesight

-non-magnifying red dots have 40% more magnification than iron sights

-some scopes have "incorrect" elevation adjustment (ACOG 200-700m, PU 50-300m instead of 100-1300m)

-iron sights have incorrect adjustments (50-300m for iron sights instead of the real values)

-pistols are sighted in at 100 meters resulting in the bullet hitting too high at lower ranges

-all weapons have incorrect muzzle velocities off by amounts ranging from 150-1800+ ft/s (except FNX-45)

-several weapons have incorrect exterior ballistics (time of flight, bullet drop, etc)

-long-range scope has a simple duplex reticle (arguable but I consider this very unlikely and thus incorrect)

-bayonet decreases accuracy

-bipod increases accuracy far too much

-all stocks affect accuracy by a large amount

-all handguards affect accuracy by a large amount

-upcoming Mosin compensator increases accuracy as much as a bipod

-upcoming Mosin compensator doesn't reduce recoil

-the topic of this thread, weapon accuracy,

-SKS is missing its folding bayonet and appears to use a regular bayonet instead

-5.56mm does less damage than .45 ACP at any range (incorrect in my opinion)

 

 

I'm probably missing a few things.

[Tiger205 48]

^

 

-all scopes have incorrect magnification (PU 1.39x, ACOG 1.56x, "Long-Range" 5x)

-iron sights have less magnification than your player's normal eyesight

-non-magnifying red dots have 40% more magnification than iron sights

-some scopes have "incorrect" elevation adjustment (ACOG 200-700m, PU 50-300m instead of 100-1300m)

-iron sights have incorrect adjustments (50-300m for iron sights instead of the real values)

-pistols are sighted in at 100 meters resulting in the bullet hitting too high at lower ranges

-all weapons have incorrect muzzle velocities off by amounts ranging from 150-1800+ ft/s (except FNX-45)

-several weapons have incorrect exterior ballistics (time of flight, bullet drop, etc)

-long-range scope has a simple duplex reticle (arguable but I consider this very unlikely and thus incorrect)

-bayonet decreases accuracy

-bipod increases accuracy far too much

-all stocks affect accuracy by a large amount

-all handguards affect accuracy by a large amount

-upcoming Mosin compensator increases accuracy as much as a bipod

-upcoming Mosin compensator doesn't reduce recoil

-the topic of this thread, weapon accuracy,

-SKS is missing its folding bayonet and appears to use a regular bayonet instead

-5.56mm does less damage than .45 ACP at any range (incorrect in my opinion)

 

 

I'm probably missing a few things.

 

Jesus fucking Christ I knew some about things like ACOG having shit magnification and couple other things but this many? How can you fuck up so badly if you have a perfectly fine basis for it that is ArmA II? Why make it just another retarded RPG shooter with values pulled out of someone's ass? It can be an alpha but so what. That's not an excuse to fuck up this badly. If you want lowered accuracy don't do it by adding artificial shit but just by increasing recoil and sway. Jesus.

 

On another note - there is an SKS is DayZ? And how do standard handguards and stocks compare with RIS and uglypul handguards and stocks? Oh and what about the suppressor? Does it do ANYTHING? I'm mainly interested in the RIS rails though. I don't understand why uglypul is supposed to give more accuracy than the standard handguard either because the latter is rather comfortable to begin with but whatever. That's a topic for another thread.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Tygrys

[-Gews- 7443]

Jesus fucking Christ I knew some about things like ACOG having shit magnification and couple other things but this many?

Right now the only thing really "correct" is magazine capacities.

I know some people are probably thinking "meh, it's not that bad", but... okay, tell me what values ARE correct.

Almost none of them. The weapons arguably are closer to the "realism" of say, Battlefield, than of ARMA 2 or 3... and I think that's a shame.

 

 

On another note - there is an SKS is DayZ? And how do standard handguards and stocks compare with RIS and uglypul handguards and stocks? I'm mainly interested in the RIS rails. I don't understand why uglypul is supposed to give more accuracy than the standard handguard either because the latter is rather comfortable to begin with but whatever. That's a topic for another thread.

It's the Yugoslavian M59/66 variant, it's apparently mostly ready but not implemented yet.

RIS rails are the same as the standard handguard but let you attach things.

A single Magpul part apparently improves your M4's accuracy by a factor of 1.7 times, both Magpul parts by 5.8 times.

[Tiger205 48]

The weapons arguably are closer to the "realism" of say, Battlefield, than of ARMA 2 or 3... and I think that's a shame.

 

As far as I remember even BF3 didn't have this kind of retarded artificial dispersion and it had at least correct magnification for scopes. Which is sad really because all they had to do is copy/paste ArmA II.

 

A single Magpul part apparently improves your M4's accuracy by a factor of 1.7 times, both Magpul parts by 5.8 times.

 

Jesus is this SWTOR or something? How could anyone fuck up this badly? At first when I saw those parts I merely thought they were cosmetics and I would be fine with that but this? What was rocket thinking?

[-Gews- 7443]

Which is sad really because all they had to do is copy/paste ArmA II.

They did for a couple things, for example:

-Mosin, M4A1 and .357 Magnum (non-speedloader) had their muzzle velocity taken from the ARMA M16

-Mosin uses ARMA 2 aerodynamics for 7.62x51mm, M4A1 uses aerodynamics for ARMA 2 5.56mm

-FNX45 and Magnum use (incorrect) aerodynamics from ARMA 3's FNX45

 

Jesus is this SWTOR or something? How could anyone fuck up this badly? At first when I saw those parts I merely thought they were cosmetics and I would be fine with that but this? What was rocket thinking?

I don't think Rocket is the kind of guy who's obsessed with firearms and simulation-style realism, I think he prefers balance over "rivet-counting". I really can't imagine Rocket researching the dimensions of the 12.7mm 7N34 bullet or something like that. :lol:

He said it himself:

I agree with that for many parts of the game - but when it comes to firearms I happen to disagree... for me, guns just don't feel "authentic" unless they're also "realistic"!

[Tiger205 48]

I don't think Rocket is the kind of guy who's obsessed with firearms and simulation-style realism, I think he prefers balance over "rivet-counting"

 

That's gonna bite him in the ass soon if he keeps up with these artificial gimmicks. Noone had a problem with how accurate weapons were in the mod because that's how accurate those things are in real life and suddenly rocket decides to go "fuck it" and introduces RPG style stat enhancers and what not. The mod was better than any comparable game because it didn't have artificial mechanics put into it and artificial gimmicks and mechanics are going to kill standalone if this keeps up.

[gibonez 3633]

^

 

-all scopes have incorrect magnification (PU 1.39x, ACOG 1.56x, "Long-Range" 5x)

 

 

 

Makes me wish they would just go back this style of scope for any weapon with magnified optics.

 

Go to that style of optics on magnified scopes and then give it the appropriate zoom setting.

 

The current style is crap for everything except red dots.

[libertine 351]

That's gonna bite him in the ass soon if he keeps up with these artificial gimmicks. Noone had a problem with how accurate weapons were in the mod because that's how accurate those things are in real life....

They were way over accurate and too easy to use in the mod. They were designed to take out loads of Ai. The hitboxes were obviously huge for players being hit by sniper rifles too. I found it incredibly easy to snipe moving targets with some quick guesstimation. Because of that, huge sections of the map were locked down by multiple snipers. The iron sights were and are always on one point, which you simple put over the target with your very precise mouse, you don't even have to align both with your target, the game does it for you. Gun has no momentum in the game either. Try looking down the sights, then hitting the free look key. Theres some momentum for you.

[BelMarduk 169]

I would say, just give it time. Remember, the MOD was Rockets vision. The straight up Arma II engine couldn't do everything Rocket wanted (although arguably it *could*, but its script based mechanic left it too open to the script-kiddies (a.k.a. hackers). The MOD was only a 'taste' as it were, so its really a bad idea to make any real comparisons between MOD and SA... I know I sound like a fanboy, and to a large degree I am, DayZ MOD was an absolute 'first', what made it great came from Rockets ideas for a game. Lets see what he comes up with en-toto... and remember ALPHER.

[TIC 1050]

I just hope this will all be resolved eventually. I noticed a lot of issues with firearms from today's session when I was playing retail. All this really sums up my experience. Excellent topic :)