Idea: Ammo Handloading

[fig0451 85]

Disclaimer 1: I'm in no way suggesting this should be implemented ASAP, just throwing it out there as a long term development idea.

Disclaimer 2: I've never handloaded a round in my life, and have gathered the info below from the internet and from friends who have reloaded or know reloaders. It is entirely possible that I've missed some steps, or have described something completely ass-backwards. If something sounds wrong, please post about it and I'll edit the OP.

While reading through a thread on the 5.56 supressor, I realized that 5.56 subsonic rounds, while they do exist, are stupidly rare. So stupidly rare that it would be unbelievable to actually find them lying around. It would really only be reasonable to make them yourself, thus, handloading.

So handloading requires, being as thorough as I understand here, a press, cases, primers, gunpowder, bullets, manuals or some kind of knowledge of how to handload various cartridgese properly, calipers to measure the completed cartridge+bullet length to ensure it's correct, a case neck brush which may be necesarry for fitting the bullet into the cartridge, anvils/shellholders for loading the primers, funnels and spoons/dippers for actually putting the gunpowder in the cartridge, scales for measuring the amount of gunpowder, lubricant for getting the bullet into the cartridge, and maybe a bullet puller for taking cartridges apart.

 

So thats obviously a lot of components, let me propose a simplified list of ingredients here.

Machines/Tools:

• Handpress
• Bullet Puller
• Anvils/Shellholders
• Scale
• Melting Pot
• Bullet Casting Moulds

Raw Materials:

• Empty Cases of various calibers
• Gunpowder
• Bullets
• Primers (probably vary per caliber)
• Lead

Handpresses

There are lots of different kinds of handloading presses, and there exist presses which are small enough to fit in a backpack.

Given that a pistol takes a 2x2 slot, there are handpresses which handle both the neck and the primer that could reasonable be sized as 3x2 such as this one below:

 

There are also larger presses that could be sized 3x2 which look like this:

These ones need to be mounted on tables, so implementing that style of press may be more difficult, perhaps you could have a small table as part of this kind of kit, or perhaps this kind of press could be somehow 'deployed' on tables, or perhaps only the the first press style should be implemented as this one may prove too complex to dev.
 

How would the actual process of making a bullet work? Well, the handpress would need to be capable of accepting different parts, like the M4. Making visual distinctions between various states would probably be a waste of time, but they do need to have various parts able to be exchanged.

A Handpress would have a slot for:

• Anvil/Shellholder
• Primer
• Cartridge
• Gunpowder
• Bullet

Once you've got all those things, 'Use' the handpress, maybe there an animation for it. The primer, cartridge, gunpowder and bullet would be removed from the Handpress, and you get a working cartridge in your inventory.

 

Given that these are fairly mechanically complicated, I don't think that crafting these makes sense. I'd say they could be perhaps rarely found in small villages where people might have been handloading pre-zombie-apocalypse.

Another alternative is that larger, stationary presses could be placed around the map in various spots like the water pumps. Maybe these could operate faster than hand reloaders, to counteract the downside of staying in a known location.
 

Bulletpuller

Basically, these pull cartridges apart. They look like this:

I'd say 1x1 or 2x1 inventory size. Combine this with a working cartridge, use it, and you get a bullet, a cartridge with a primer in it and some gunpowder. For simplicity's sake, lets say these can pull apart cartridges of any caliber.

Same as handloaders, these should spawn in small villages.


Anvils/Shellholders

 

These hold the primer into the bottom on the shell so the primer can be pressed into a cartridge that doesn't have a primer in it.

 

Anvils look like this:

Shellholders look like this:

 

I say combine the anvil and the shellholder into one thing for the sake of simplicity of the whole process. Inventory size 1x1, stackable to some amount.

Like the handpress and bullet puller, these would spawn in small villages where people might have been handloading.

 

 

Scale

Not bothering with a picture here. Your stereotypical gram sensitive scale. You need this to measure out your gunpowder to the correct amount. Requires battery.

Found in supermarkets. 2x1 or 2x2 inventory size, not stackable. You'd combine your scale and your gunpowder, then do an action on the scale to measure out grams exactly.

 

Melting Pot

 

A big pot made of something with a fairly higher melting point than lead. Not sure is actually used to melt lead, but you get the idea, whatever that is made out of, we need a big pot for it.

 

Butane burns hot enough to melt lead (as best I can tell), so combine the portable cooking stove with butane and the melting pot, and you can now throw your lead in there and melt it for casting.

 

Bullet Casting Moulds

Things that you cast your bullets in once you have molten lead. These could come in different calibers, or could be simplified into a caster with different caliber moulds, as seen below.

 

These would be maybe 2x1 in your inventory, non stackabe. Function would be once you have your portable stove with your melting pot with molten lead in it, you equip this thing and 'use' it on it to cast a bullet of whicever caliber.
 

Empty Case

These could spawn potentially anywhere where somebody had been shooting at something pre apocalypse. Maybe on city streets, maybe near military bases. Come in various calibers.

 

Also, these should spawn when you fire a weapon where the action ejects the case. For something like a revolver, you could remove the empty cases from the gun or if a better reloading system is implemented, the cases would drop to the ground on reload.

If this system proves to be too server intensive, perhaps when reloading your gun/magazines, that's the only time when cases pop into your inventory. Not perfect, less realistic, but seems like a lot less work for the server item system.

 

1x1 Inventory size, stackable with like calibers.
 

Gunpowder

 

Not quite so sure what this would look like in your inventory, maybe just a pile of powder? Maybe in a bag? Could possibly be found in small villages where handloading is going on,  maybe in military bases as well.

 

Bullets (just the actual part that flies out and hits someone)

 

Not totally sure about these either. You could seemingly find them in small villages with the rest of the reloading equipment.

 

Primers

As with bullets, you could seemingly find primers with other reloading equipment. Possibly at something like a hardware store?

 

Lead

 

You could find in scrap heaps of industrial areas, maybe just lead pipes or fittings or something. Maybe you just find some kind of raw lead item, maybe various items composed of lead can be added.


Phew! Ok, sorry that took so long, but I wanted to be thorough. Comments, questions, critiques away!

Edited January 2, 2014 by fig0451

[kevinwebb94@gmail.com 12]

This probably could be coded in but to be honest it seems way too specific for this game.

 

Who knows though, with all the features planned, making your own bullets could very well be one of them.

[Guest]

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Edited September 13, 2022 by Guest

[fig0451 85]

Nooooooooooooooooooo

Why does everyone want to make this game a simulator of........ everything!?

 

Well this game is built on an engine derived from military simulation... :P

 

But I totally think this would add a whole new level of player interaction with the world, would make for more varied play styles (same reason I can't wait for hunting animals to be added in), and has the possibility of creating new social dynamics. Just like how there are groups of players that provide medical attention to wounded players, maybe you could get a group of players with the proper ammo creation ability to give/trade ammo to other players.

[Dchil 829]

Nooooooooooooooooooo

Why does everyone want to make this game a simulator of........ everything!?

Because in a survival situation like this, then you basically need to do everything.

 

Gunman, cook, hunter, tailor, farmer..... the list goes on.

[liquidcactus 719]

Its not a bad idea but not something I think is very exciting but none the less its definitely relevant 

[pangzheng 0]

The problem is, there is no base, all talk

 

Because in a survival situation like this, then you basically need to do everything.

 

Gunman, cook, hunter, tailor, farmer..... the list goes on.

[terminal_boy 860]

Cast lead bullets won't feed in 99% of modern self-loading weapon.

 

A smart person with the correct tools, reloading components and a reloading guide could make serviceable ammunition.

 

Right up until he/she ran out of reloading components as making modern jacketed bullets, shell casings, primers and propellants will be beyond anyone.

 

Personally, I'd be hoarding ammo whilst searching every museum and historical site for a flintlock rifle as cast lead balls and blackpowder can be made with a few tools and some chemistry knowledge.

[fig0451 85]

Cast lead bullets won't feed in 99% of modern self-loading weapon.

 

... What? Why not?

 

Cast lead bullets won't feed in 99% of modern self-loading weapon.

 

A smart person with the correct tools, reloading components and a reloading guide could make serviceable ammunition.

 

Right up until he/she ran out of reloading components as making modern jacketed bullets, shell casings, primers and propellants will be beyond anyone.

 

Personally, I'd be hoarding ammo whilst searching every museum and historical site for a flintlock rifle as cast lead balls and blackpowder can be made with a few tools and some chemistry knowledge.

Why wouldn't cast lead bullets feed?

 

You do bring up a good point though, you would run out of primers and such at some point.

 

[wgaf 251]

I reload in real life and it would be really neat to have a system in game. Recipes and fine tuning, and the ability to overload or under load powder to make trap ammo that could maim the person who uses it or cause a squib.

At the very least, it would be nice if premium ammo was required to get the best accuracy out of rifles.

Different types of handgun ammo would be neat too.

[Imbalanxd 59]

I really like this idea, because I really want crafting to be included in DayZ in a ubiquitous, every day life kinda way.

 

Its all well and good doing a run on an army base and getting 50 or so bullets, but imagine finding the raw materials to make 500 bullets? Then the only thing standing between you and spray and pray heaven is the time taken to craft them. And the equipment needed.

 

Bullets would need to become way more rare for anybody to choose this route though.

[varick 3]

That would be awesome to go into that much detail.  However I think something like ball and powder for a musket would be the most we could see.  Who knows.  Once they have impliment living off the land anything is possible, when you compare it to the level of detail in the medical/illness aspect of the game.

[-Gews- 7443]

Why wouldn't cast lead bullets feed?

 

They will feed. You'll have to push them way slower to avoid leading and accuracy problems and you'll want gas checks.

[terminal_boy 860]

Any self-loading weapon that has a feed ramp will mush the lead bullet as it's chambered causing a failure to feed.

 

The amount of bore fouling caused by rough-cast, soft lead bullets is going to block the gas tap-off port really fast even if you could make the bullets tough enough to survive a trip up the feed ramps.

[ThomasTheCreeper 9]

I like the idea, but i think it should be kept pretty simple. Also maybe the press could be a big stationary one, found in some industrial areas away from current hotspots to create new competative areas.

[fig0451 85]

I like the idea, but i think it should be kept pretty simple. Also maybe the press could be a big stationary one, found in some industrial areas away from current hotspots to create new competative areas.

 

My friend suggested this as well and that is another good idea, I'll edit the OP.

 

Any self-loading weapon that has a feed ramp will mush the lead bullet as it's chambered causing a failure to feed.

 

The amount of bore fouling caused by rough-cast, soft lead bullets is going to block the gas tap-off port really fast even if you could make the bullets tough enough to survive a trip up the feed ramps.

 

Mechanically, I don't see why this would be the case. A properly reloaded cartridge is going behave very similarly to a manufacturer cartridge; the cartridge overall is the same size as a manufacturer cartridge, the bullet is the same size, and if you're using good powder then barrel fouling from particulate should be similar.

 

Perhaps its metallurgic. Does not having a copper jacket really cause that much of a problem? To the best of my knowledge the burning temperature of cordite is 180C where lead melts at 330C and copper melts at 1100C... so I guess that could be it.

[Dchil 829]

Perhaps its metallurgic. Does not having a copper jacket really cause that much of a problem? To the best of my knowledge the burning temperature of cordite is 180C where lead melts at 330C and copper melts at 1100C... so I guess that could be it.

 

Cordite hasn't been used in the manufacture of smokeless powder since the 1900's.

 

The problem with lead bullets in semi autos is excessive fouling, as the bullet is quite integeral to feeding in most semi autos and rubs alot along the feed ramps and so on. Overly soft lead will lead to distortion of the round while chambering it.  It is possible to use lead, but it must be hard cast and you must clean it more often.

 

Case in point, here is Hickok45 shooting a glock 21 (45acp) loaded with black powder and lead bullets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzQ4uKvE7c8

 

He starts going on about the bullets at 2:00. Glock don't recommend shooting cast lead due to their unique rifling.

[MystoganXIX 78]

I could see this being useful and not have too much coding effort.

 

These days avid firearm shooters (at least where I live anyways) don't particularly like to spend shitloads of cash on bullets. They buy an initial supply of bullets or even scavenge shell casings from the gun range. These shells (brass only, and old primers popped out) along with the other required items are then assembled and put into what looks like a cranking device at first glance. (Based off the few I've seen. There are plenty of differently designed handloaders out there.)

 

I don't think the animations are necessary, but as long as a player has the required recipe and a loading device, ammo could just be self crafted in the inventory screen.

 

Of course... its said that shell casings aren't able to be used indefinitely. Most people throw them out after 3-4 reloads. But I doubt they'd want to go that in depth with this.

Edited January 3, 2014 by MystoganXIX

[JarethJams 87]

We should also get a sewing kit to make cute clothes...

[Land Squid 22]

Edit: Nevermind, someone posted the same vid before me while I was elsewhere.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Land Squid

[Dchil 829]

snip

Vid already posted.

[Rushthezeppelin 8]

I like the idea, but i think it should be kept pretty simple. Also maybe the press could be a big stationary one, found in some industrial areas away from current hotspots to create new competative areas.

 

This is total BS.  Trust me I load lead bullets for my 9mm (a poly framed CZ75 clone) almost exclusively (except my HP self defense rounds).  If it does mush it then you are using pure lead and will have barrel leading issues as well (which will happen on revolvers as well).  Properly done harder lead alloys work perfectly fine in autoloaders.  The only trick with autoloaders and lead is that some won't feed odd bullet profiles like flat nose or semi-wad cutters but this changes from gun to gun.  Personally my CZ clone will even feed semi wad cutters (they look like a fat crayola crayon basically).  For more info on this stuff check out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/.

 

As to the OPs idea as a reloader in RL I've very much wanted this system in game although I completely understand that it is low on the priority list.

[dubghall 36]

I agree completely with the person that said the real strategy would be to find a more simple weapon for which producing ammunition was easier.  Take this rout and nearly all of the difficulties stated above will disappear - plus you'll have room for that level of detail in crafting elsewhere... like camping equipment, clothing, and truely necessary survival gear.

[dirby12 33]

i like the idea but it seems pretty hard to manage

[badman85@gmail.com 14]

good leg work ! 

HOT, hot, hot, rounds anyone ? ;)