Removal of elevation adjustments by 100s of meters.

[gibonez 3633]

Being able to adjust your elevation on your weapon is a fantastic feature but one that is extremely inaccurate in dayz.

 

ACE mod had it done perfectly.

 

In ace weapons that did indeed allow you to adjust elevation by 100s of meters did so while weapons that did not in real life allowed you to adjust using moas or with weapons using metric turrets in mils.

 

What I am proposing is Dayz take ACE's approach to realism when it comes to optics and iron sights.

 

Weapons such as the m16 and m4 would continue to be allowed adjustments by 100s of meters because their rear sights work this way.

 

 

Meanwhile this does not work for scopes aside from a very few select russian scopes.

 

Western scopes need to be built to work on a wide variety of guns and different calibers therefore they are adjusted using a universal method of measuring either MOAs or mils.

Instead of trying to explain and butchering and confusing you people on how optics are adjusted I will post 3 videos that comprehensively explain elevation adjustment on optics.

 

 

Now you may be asking yourself why would you turn an easy super simplified mechanic into something difficult ?

 

That answer is easy making precision shooting especially at long ranges difficult adds depth and complexity to one of the most difficult things to do in real life.

 

Being able to take a rifle and shooting small targets out at 800m is not something you can just do one day it takes years of shooting experience and lots of practice to do.

 

Now lets focus on what this system would do within the game.

 

1. Sniping within the game will automatically become more satisfying.

2. Dedicated snipers would have to make their own in game data books for each weapon.

3. The game would get much needed depth and complexity.

 

 

How it works in ACE.

 

What do you guys think. Would dayz benefit from adopting ACE's system for elevation adjustments ?

Edited December 31, 2013 by gibonez

[Korsbaek 1778]

Weapons in DayZ already have zeroing. Isn't that what you're talking about?

 

Both the M4 and the Mosin can do it.

[gibonez 3633]

Weapons in DayZ already have zeroing. Isn't that what you're talking about?

 

Both the M4 and the Mosin can do it.

 

My thought is about removing the current zeroing aka elevation adjustment with one that is realistic.

 

Currently in game you adjust scopes in dayz and vanilla arma by 100s of meters.

What I am proposing is adopting the ACE aka real life method of adjusting optics in dayz.

 

 

Pretty much adopting this method of zeroing in dayz.

 

Watch that video and you will understand.

Edited December 27, 2013 by gibonez

[frosti 2165]

 

real life method of adjusting optics in dayz.

Don't forget that players have unreal stamina and can run 24/7 and never get tired, so trying to hit someone who have unreal stamina with real life gun can be tricky.

[gibonez 3633]

Don't forget that players have unreal stamina and can run 24/7 and never get tired, so trying to hit someone who have unreal stamina with real life gun can be tricky.

 

Not sure what to say to that.

 

Sniping is hard in real life shouldn't it be in game ?

[frosti 2165]

Not sure what to say to that.

 

Sniping is hard in real life shouldn't it be in game ?

 

Sniping is hard in real life becouse people run everywhere all the time and never get tired or for some other reasons?

[nerfed 8]

Not sure what to say to that.

 

Sniping is hard in real life shouldn't it be in game ?

It IS.

[rickyspanish 158]

I agree and also believe this would make engaging at range more difficult but also more precise making it much more satisfying. I also would like taking wind into consideration when zeroing, and adding the tools to measure these things more accurately. Something like this though would take some implementing and would probably need adding at a later date when more weapon and scope variety is available. Theres alot of people who will think this complicates things to much but Im all for it.     

[420jeppe 28]

I agree.

[Merrick362 (DayZ) 263]

Stop trolling the OP. He raises some very good points. Whatever sights are in game should be adjusted using the same methods that they would be in real life.

I would love it if you could find a sight but had to adjust the zero. I.E. you find an C79, you find a target 100m away, and discover that your MPI is high and right. You have to adjust the sight to place your MPI on top of your POI.

Once that is done, the sight is zeroed to your weapon and YOUR CHARACTER. If another player wants to use your sight, they will have to re zero (just like in real life, two people can use the same weapon with the same sight and hit different places. I won't get into the reasons here.

That would make shooting much more rewarding and challenging.

[gibonez 3633]

It IS.

 

It is most definitely not hard in Vanilla arma and in dayz.

 

Sniping in dayz is extremely easy. Making 800m shots is insanely easy.

 

This new elevation system would also add like spanish mentioned more precision to sniping.

 

You would now be able to adjust your bullet for exact ranges say you have a target a 640m currently you have no way of ranging to that exact range.

 

With an moa system say for that partiular rifle 600m is 21 moa in elevation and 700 is 25 Hitting to 640 would be somewhere around 23 moa.

[rickyspanish 158]

Don't forget that players have unreal stamina and can run 24/7 and never get tired, so trying to hit someone who have unreal stamina with real life gun can be tricky.

 

Thats a good point, but I nice balance could be achieved. I think it would add a lot to sniping though and make it a little harder for people to just engage without thinking, and instead having to work out the range and elevation more accurately. Of course a more skilled player would be extremely dangerous and more accurate if he has the right tools and the know how. 

[Merrick362 (DayZ) 263]

I'll also add that assault weapons are not one shot kill platforms. Accuracy by volume of fire.

[BelMarduk 169]

On the one hand I am all for this. Anything that gets the 'authenticity' closer to 'realism' I am for. That said, like you said 'years of practice'. Very few people could find that device and have any clue what it is, let alone use it correctly. And. There is no 'wind' per se in SA. as in there is no 'parameter' for wind to match up with the floating leaves and breath you see, so that would need to be coded in, and it would only be for snipers. Without having that device, because wind is not in the SA AND another 'feature' of SA is every toon in SA s the same height. Put all that together, and whatever method you use to adjust your zeroing, it will always come down to "600m distance?  tap page up twice..." "650m? Page Up twice and aim just high..."

 

Edit: although, adding wind into the game could ad another huge dynamic to the game. Zeds gain the ability of scent. When the mobs of vicious zombies are added into the game, having to stay down wind of them would ad a new challenge. Then this idea would actually have merit.

Edited December 27, 2013 by BelMarduk

[BelMarduk 169]

I agree and also believe this would make engaging at range more difficult but also more precise making it much more satisfying. I also would like taking wind into consideration when zeroing, and adding the tools to measure these things more accurately. Something like this though would take some implementing and would probably need adding at a later date when more weapon and scope variety is available. Theres alot of people who will think this complicates things to much but Im all for it.     

***hushed whisper voice*** Ricky Spanishhhh

[ryzoh 44]

its dayz not ace mod bro, we are survivors, not highly trained people from army.

[-Gews- 7443]

its dayz not ace mod bro, we are survivors, not highly trained people from army.

 

Exactly, so our characters shouldn't automatically know the exact elevations required like they currently do ^_^ this comment simply supports the OP.

[gibonez 3633]

On the one hand I am all for this. Anything that gets the 'authenticity' closer to 'realism' I am for. That said, like you said 'years of practice'. Very few people could find that device and have any clue what it is, let alone use it correctly. And. There is no 'wind' per se in SA. as in there is no 'parameter' for wind to match up with the floating leaves and breath you see, so that would need to be coded in, and it would only be for snipers. Without having that device, because wind is not in the SA AND another 'feature' of SA is every toon in SA s the same height. Put all that together, and whatever method you use to adjust your zeroing, it will always come down to "600m distance?  tap page up twice..." "650m? Page Up twice and aim just high..."

 

I am sorry but I don't quite follow your comment.

I am not proposing the adjustment by wind since I am not entirely sure its even possible at this point in the Stand Alone engine. What I am proposing is the elevation adjustment aka "zeroing" be completely changed so it is realistic for each weapon and most importantly optic.

 

The mosin nagant for example in game is completely wrong when you have iron sights you are only allowed to adjust elevation up to 300m.

 

When in reality you can adjust up to 2000m.

 

The pu optics are another case in game they allow adjustments up to 300m.

 

In real life you adjust up to 1300m that 13 on the elevation dial = 1300m.

 

Same applies to the long range scope in game. It allows for adjustments in 100s of meters up to 800 m when in reality it would be adjustable in either MOAs or Mils there would be no elevation turret for that scope listing 100,200,300,400ms etc in range instead it would have MOAs or Mils.

 

 

its dayz not ace mod bro, we are survivors, not highly trained people from army.

 

Civilians use this same method of aiming.

 

Civilian hunters keep data books on their ammo especially since so many hunters hand load.

 

 

Like you mentioned these are survivors so they wouldnt automatically know what moa adjustments or how many clicks correspond to what range.

 

Military snipers know their weapons in and out so they can adjust range and windage in seconds dayz survivors are civilians so they would have to keep a cheat sheet with them.

 

like so a small sketch pad or notebook with the proper moa adjustment for the ranges they desire.

[Nihilum 209]

Don't forget that players have unreal stamina and can run 24/7 and never get tired, so trying to hit someone who have unreal stamina with real life gun can be tricky.

meh... I like it just because it makes it harder for camping bored kids via making it akin to the real world skill of marksmanship...  

Also, fatigue system will make a reappearance when it's tweaked from what's been said.

To those saying "we're survivors bro, not military" -- that's the point. As of now the game boils down the complex nature of taking accurate long range shots to easy mode one touch instant zeroing. I'd like to see half of you try to sight a high powered scope, then switch the zero another 400m farther and see how accurate it is off the bat.

I believe you should be required to fine tune the zero on scopes, requiring you to properly sight the scope to where you want it, meaning putting a couple rounds down range. This makes scopes more skill based with a learning curve, instead of just a flat out upgrade to the weapon to be abused by campers. With damage to the scope comes the potential for said zero to shift, requiring you to re-sight the weapon, or compensate on the fly.

Game is about risk reward, and the high powered rifle scope is all reward atm, with no risk.

 

Edited December 27, 2013 by Nihilum

[032125 (DayZ) 91]

its dayz not ace mod bro, we are survivors, not highly trained people from army.

IIRC DayZ was conceived as a training simulator. Your character isn't granted arbitrary abilities based on arbitrary XP. If you know how to navigate by the stars, you have an advantage. If you figure it out while playing, you gain an advantage. It behooves everyone to take the time to learn this suff, and BI should continue to pile on realistic elements. If learning isn't for you, there are plenty of simplified run and gun games (which shall remain nameless). Maybe ARMA/DayZ just aren't for you.

 

Edited December 27, 2013 by 032125

[gibonez 3633]

I believe you should be required to fine tune the zero on scopes, requiring you to properly sight the scope to where you want it, meaning putting a couple rounds down range. This makes scopes more skill based with a learning curve, instead of just a flat out upgrade to the weapon to be abused by campers.

 

 

 

Pretty much.

 

Adopting the real world realistic method of elevation adjustment for scopes and iron sights would raise the skill cap instantly.

 

It would improve gameplay by resulting in far fewer snipers but at the same time not punishing good players.

 

Good players would learn to adapt while skillless players would quickly abandon sniping and stick to close combat due its ease.

 

Above this would be adding complexity and depth to the game something it desperately needs.

[gibonez 3633]

I wish I would have found this video earlier.

 

This video essentially explains what MOA is and how it applies to distance shooting.

 

I posted it because I believe there is still some confusion as to what this thread is about.

[Merrick362 (DayZ) 263]

I think you should clarify your terms, gibonez. My understanding of the term "zeroing" is based off my own training as a Canadian Infanteer. When we "zero" our sights, that means that (for us) at 100m our main point of impact (MPI) is 25mm above our point of aim (POI).

The minimum range we can set our sights to is 200m. Since the bullet travels in an arc, we deliberately adjust so that our rounds land high at 100m. If we move back to 200m and fire, the round will have dropped 25mm and impact exactly where we aim.

Once we are "zeroed", we have a dial that is marked from 200m, all the way to 800m in 100m increments. You don't "zero" the rifle at every range, you simply set your sight adjustment to the appropriate range.

The reason we zero is because each individual shooter holds the weapon slightly differently, with different and unique eye relief , slightly different parallax, etc.

tl; dr:

Zeroing only happens once, when you pick the weapon up for the first time. Once that is done, you shouldn't ever zero again (unless you drop the thing on the sight). Once that is done, you're just adjusting your range.

[gibonez 3633]

I think you should clarify your terms, gibonez. My understanding of the term "zeroing" is based off my own training as a Canadian Infanteer. When we "zero" our sights, that means that (for us) at 100m our main point of impact (MPI) is 25mm above our point of aim (POI).

The minimum range we can set our sights to is 200m. Since the bullet travels in an arc, we deliberately adjust so that our rounds land high at 100m. If we move back to 200m and fire, the round will have dropped 25mm and impact exactly where we aim.

Once we are "zeroed", we have a dial that is marked from 200m, all the way to 800m in 100m increments. You don't "zero" the rifle at every range, you simply set your sight adjustment to the appropriate range.

The reason we zero is because each individual shooter holds the weapon slightly differently, with different and unique eye relief , slightly different parallax, etc.

tl; dr:

Zeroing only happens once, when you pick the weapon up for the first time. Once that is done, you shouldn't ever zero again (unless you drop the thing on the sight). Once that is done, you're just adjusting your range.

 

 

Thread isnt so much about zeroing a rifle as much as how elevation adjustments are made in game.

 

Reason why I used the term Zeroing is because to most people in the forum elevation adjustments are known as "zeroing"

 

With my method a gun should be zeroed at 100m and 100m should correspond to 0 moa in elevation or if the optics are of european or are using metric 0 mils.

[Merrick362 (DayZ) 263]

Makes sense. I just wanted to clarify terminology. I could not agree with you more. Picked up a Russian sight? Learn to read Russian. Picked up an American sight? Learn to use mildots. Don't know how to properly adjust your sight? That's an issue, not an issme. Go up north and practice.

My biggest gripe with the mosin at 800m hits low and left.

My biggest gripe with the M4 is that the ACOG can be adjusted? That's what the sight markings are for. Get on Google and learn how to use them.