Third person view removal from SA discussion

[Karmaterror 982]

Indeed it does.....dont know why there seems to be so many EU servers compared to US ones. That is unfortunate, but c;mon, its not a reason to do away with 3rd. 

 

Thats like a cinema saying "Dam everyone is going to Avatar....noone is watching Mary Poppins....I know lets just screen Marry Poppins"......Most people will just go to another cinema to watch what they want.

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

Indeed it does.....dont know why there seems to be so many EU servers compared to US ones. That is unfortunate, but c;mon, its not a reason to do away with 3rd.

Thats like a cinema saying "Dam everyone is going to Avatar....noone is watching Mary Poppins....I know lets just screen Marry Poppins"......Most people will just go to another cinema to watch what they want.

Haha that's awesome! Very good analogy. :D

[ElectrikDino 1]

First person is way to glitchy and stuttery for me. Third person is just so smooth, I love playing with it enabled. 

[captainvette2112 84]

Those views "work" because those are arcade games. You can't 360 no scope in DayZ nor should you be able to. 

 

Besides, the DayZSA 1st person view works fine if you're playing correctly. You can't side step strafe at 30 mph or bunny hop or spin 180 degrees like you're on ice but nor should you be able to. If you're clearing out buildings or tents or moving up on someone, it's not only fine but works beautifully. Checking your corners, side stepping slowly around corners while you "slice the pie" moving past a room.. that all works. It works fine.

 

Again.. people are way too used to 3rd person ghosting a room or area, seeing someone then walking into it firing from the hip in the exact location of an enemy. That is not good for gameplay and frankly not good for the game.

 

 

There is a reason those games have the mechanics they do.. and its to make up for what is basically a less than 70 degree view of the world.  Their sound also works by the way.  The "twitch" as you call is to make up for the lack of situational awareness and to increase reaction time.

 

I would say that in a larger style map like DayZ, combat is generally slowed down compared to those "twitch" games mentioned because its happening at a greater distance.  The problem for DayZ's 1st person combat is when it gets up close.  here is where it fails IMO for the reasons I already gave. 

 

The fairer comparison would be to take a look at a game with an even LARGER continouse map than DayZ, World War II Online.  Its 1st person play is vastly better because the controls are faster, less clunky, and the sound is way better.

 

As far as what is best for game play and the game goes... we will jsut have to agree to disagree. I think this experement has been tired on the mod and failed and tired again on SA and seems to be failing. There is a reason people like 3rd person view in DayZ.. its because it works better, period.    I would be ok with the concept of the invisible wall shown in that youtube video by the way but within the current mechanics of the game I cannot support 1st person only.

[serenityrick 218]

There is a reason those games have the mechanics they do.. and its to make up for what is basically a less than 70 degree view of the world.  Their sound also works by the way.  The "twitch" as you call is to make up for the lack of situational awareness and to increase reaction time.

 

I would say that in a larger style map like DayZ, combat is generally slowed down compared to those "twitch" games mentioned because its happening at a greater distance.  The problem for DayZ's 1st person combat is when it gets up close.  here is where it fails IMO for the reasons I already gave. 

 

The fairer comparison would be to take a look at a game with an even LARGER continouse map than DayZ, World War II Online.  Its 1st person play is vastly better because the controls are faster, less clunky, and the sound is way better.

 

As far as what is best for game play and the game goes... we will jsut have to agree to disagree. I think this experement has been tired on the mod and failed and tired again on SA and seems to be failing. There is a reason people like 3rd person view in DayZ.. its because it works better, period.    I would be ok with the concept of the invisible wall shown in that youtube video by the way but within the current mechanics of the game I cannot support 1st person only.

 

The problem with that theory (that it makes up for situational awareness) is that everyone is on the same playing field.. I move my head and body at the same speed you do in the SA. Neither one of us can exploit the fact that we're viewing the world in 1st person view even if our overall FOV is less. That argument only works if you're playing in 1st person on a 3rd person server. Playing in 1st person on a 3PP:ON server is SEVERELY handicapping yourself. And it's not because 1st person is underpowered.. it's because 3rd person is so very much OVERpowered.

 

with third person, even though we both may be using 3rd person, we are not necessarily on the same playing field. Being in 3rd person does me no good if I'm sitting inside a building and you're sitting outside of it watching every single move I make with ZERO risk because you're not exposing yourself.

Edited January 5, 2014 by serenityrick

[captainvette2112 84]

The problem with that theory (that it makes up for situational awareness) is that everyone is on the same playing field.. I move my head and body at the same speed you do in the SA. Neither one of us can exploit the fact that we're viewing the world in 1st person view even if our overall FOV is less. That argument only works if you're playing in 1st person on a 3rd person server. Playing in 1st person on a 3PP:ON server is SEVERELY handicapping yourself. And it's not because 1st person is underpowered.. it's because 3rd person is so very much OVERpowered.

 

with third person, even though we both may be using 3rd person, we are not necessarily on the same playing field. Being in 3rd person does me no good if I'm sitting inside a building and you're sitting outside of it watching every single move I make with ZERO risk because you're not exposing yourself.

 

Im not saying there arent exploits to 3rd person (which is why I would support the invisible wall concept).   Im just saying the mechanics of DayZ's 1st person suck to the point that ill take the exploits of 3rd person over it.  As I said there are other games in the same boat as DayZ that do a far better job at it.... World War II Online for example.

 

I am all for having 1st person only servers... go there and be happy.  But when the conversation turns to forcing EVERYONE to play that way then I have to say before we can even begin to have that conversation the clunky ass controls and sound have to be fixed first.

[serenityrick 218]

Im not saying there arent exploits to 3rd person (which is why I would support the invisible wall concept).   Im just saying the mechanics of DayZ's 1st person suck to the point that ill take the exploits of 3rd person over it.  As I said there are other games in the same boat as DayZ that do a far better job at it.... World War II Online for example.

 

I am all for having 1st person only servers... go there and be happy.  But when the conversation turns to forcing EVERYONE to play that way then I have to say before we can even begin to have that conversation the clunky ass controls and sound have to be fixed first.

 

The controls are only "clunky" if you're trying to play it like an arcade shooter.

 

As I've already said... I do play on 1st person only servers.. but here's the problem:

 

Have someone mod in hundreds of working vehicles and aircraft and starter kits and you'll see the same exact thing versus legacy servers. The ones who suffer are people who enjoy both 1st person and playing with a lot of people.

Although apparently this is only an issue with US servers. *shakes head*

[Gerandar 212]

The controls are only "clunky" if you're trying to play it like an arcade shooter.

 

As I've already said... I do play on 1st person only servers.. but here's the problem:

 

Have someone mod in hundreds of working vehicles and aircraft and starter kits and you'll see the same exact thing versus legacy servers. The ones who suffer are people who enjoy both 1st person and playing with a lot of people.

Although apparently this is only an issue with US servers. *shakes head*

 

so the majority of players dont want to play the way you want, they must be wrong and be forced to play your way!

[captainvette2112 84]

The controls are only "clunky" if you're trying to play it like an arcade shooter.

 

As I've already said... I do play on 1st person only servers.. but here's the problem:

 

Have someone mod in hundreds of working vehicles and aircraft and starter kits and you'll see the same exact thing versus legacy servers. The ones who suffer are people who enjoy both 1st person and playing with a lot of people.

Although apparently this is only an issue with US servers. *shakes head*

 

Well you are clearly in the minority. As I said this experement has already been tried and failed on the MOD.  There is obviously a reason for it.  You think its cause people like the crutch of seeing around corners and I think its cause the controls suck.

 

Either way why should the minority dictate to the majority? You guys already have your servers, you should be happy with that.  If no one populates them then, so sad too bad.

[serenityrick 218]

so the majority of players dont want to play the way you want, they must be wrong and be forced to play your way!

 

Would you post this if the discussion were about even softer softcore servers that showed gps location, 3rd person and all the UI elements (food, hunger, thirst, bullets, RoF)?

 

No.. the prevailing opinion would be that that shouldn't be an option in the first place as it completely flies in the face of the type of game these guys are trying to make.

 

That's the argument some of us are making right now about 3PP:ON servers. 3rd person view is a crutch. Plain and simple. You may not use it to 'cheat' but plenty of people do. It makes sneaking around bases and buildings completely worthless if there's someone on a rooftop or around a corner completely hidden watching your every move. And considering this is supposed to be a super hardcore "anti-game", being able to do that makes absolutely NO SENSE.

 

It has NOTHING to do with forcing people to play "my way" so I get to have more people on "MY" servers. It has everything to do with the direction of the game in general. 

 

Honestly arguing this kind of hurts my brain because in real life I'm a libertarian, pro-freedom guy.. So the fact that I'm coming off as trying to force people to do what I like really REALLY hurts my soul right now. But it honestly has to do with what is consistent with the game they are trying to create. And right now 3PP:ON servers flies in the face of it.

[serenityrick 218]

Well you are clearly in the minority. As I said this experement has already been tried and failed on the MOD.  There is obviously a reason for it.  You think its cause people like the crutch of seeing around corners and I think its cause the controls suck.

 

Either way why should the minority dictate to the majority? You guys already have your servers, you should be happy with that.  If no one populates them then, so sad too bad.

 

It's impossible to tell if I'm in the minority to be honest. So many people have admitted that they enjoy 1st person more but play on 3rd person servers because that's where the action is.

 

The controls don't suck dude. It works absolutely fine. The fact that other people are dealing with the mouse acceleration and slower movements put EVERYONE on the same playing field. Everyone.

 

Frankly, hearing the same shit over and over again about 1st person controls lead me to believe we're just getting a lot of biased parroting in here. "yeah yeah! it's clunky! yeah! What he said!" *rolls eyes*

 

Whatever, I'm done arguing with you. Hopefully Rocket implements that whole not being able to see players/vehicles around corners thing in 3rd person. If that's being worked on then all of this is moot. 

[Karmaterror 982]

But WHY are you arguing this when you have the facilities to play the way you want.....you are basicaly trying to enforce 1st view and therefore force players to play that way. 

 

Basically...i want to play in 1st

                 Ok have a hive with first servers

                 Nope not good enough, we want no 3rd atall. (even though thats what 90% play on)

 

Carnt you be happy that you got first and let us enjouy our 3rd miles away from you where you carnt be affected by it. What really is the proble when it wont effect you?!?!?

 

And its PROVEN you are the minority.......just look at the server numbers....PROOF!

Edited January 5, 2014 by Karmaterror

[Gerandar 212]

Would you post this if the discussion were about even softer softcore servers that showed gps location, 3rd person and all the UI elements (food, hunger, thirst, bullets, RoF)?

 

No.. the prevailing opinion would be that that shouldn't be an option in the first place as it completely flies in the face of the type of game these guys are trying to make.

 

That's the argument some of us are making right now about 3PP:ON servers. 3rd person view is a crutch. Plain and simple. You may not use it to 'cheat' but plenty of people do. It makes sneaking around bases and buildings completely worthless if there's someone on a rooftop or around a corner completely hidden watching your every move. And considering this is supposed to be a super hardcore "anti-game", being able to do that makes absolutely NO SENSE.

 

It has NOTHING to do with forcing people to play "my way" so I get to have more people on "MY" servers. It has everything to do with the direction of the game in general. 

 

Honestly arguing this kind of hurts my brain because in real life I'm a libertarian, pro-freedom guy.. So the fact that I'm coming off as trying to force people to do what I like really REALLY hurts my soul right now. But it honestly has to do with what is consistent with the game they are trying to create. And right now 3PP:ON servers flies in the face of it.

If my opinion was clearly that of the minority I wouldn't keep pushing, I've already suggested pages back that instead of trying to get it removed(you wont) you should focus on constructive ways to fix the camera.

[captainvette2112 84]

Would you post this if the discussion were about even softer softcore servers that showed gps location, 3rd person and all the UI elements (food, hunger, thirst, bullets, RoF)?

 

No.. the prevailing opinion would be that that shouldn't be an option in the first place as it completely flies in the face of the type of game these guys are trying to make.

 

That's the argument some of us are making right now about 3PP:ON servers. 3rd person view is a crutch. Plain and simple. You may not use it to 'cheat' but plenty of people do. It makes sneaking around bases and buildings completely worthless if there's someone on a rooftop or around a corner completely hidden watching your every move. And considering this is supposed to be a super hardcore "anti-game", being able to do that makes absolutely NO SENSE.

 

It has NOTHING to do with forcing people to play "my way" so I get to have more people on "MY" servers. It has everything to do with the direction of the game in general. 

 

Honestly arguing this kind of hurts my brain because in real life I'm a libertarian, pro-freedom guy.. So the fact that I'm coming off as trying to force people to do what I like really REALLY hurts my soul right now. But it honestly has to do with what is consistent with the game they are trying to create. And right now 3PP:ON servers flies in the face of it.

 

Then why arent you pushing for the 4th Wall concept exemplified in the youtube video previously posted instead of pursuing this 1st person for all agenda?

 

Again, nothing you have said fixes my problems with the 1st person view of this game (clunky controls and sound) you just keep saying how I "should" be playing to work around the suck.

Edited January 5, 2014 by captainvette2112

[tommes 331]

It does not take two to tango for no reason.

All evil needs is the good men to do nothing...

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

Definitely the most interesting thread that's for sure. :D

/grabs some popcorn and a soda

[tommes 331]

Theres only 2 reasons the servers would be unpopulated....1) The friends issue....had it myself on vanilla arma2, but more for game-modes.....some friends refuse to play domination....some refuse to play CTI. But that dosent stop me enjoying them alone or with other friends.

 

2) and i think the most likely......a small minority are making a mountain out of a molehill....the demand simply isnt there for 1st only. Even knowing this from the mods the devs have added the option.

 

But some poeple still arent happy....hey it didnt work on a small scale....let do it to the whole game....dont get it lol 

We need a critical mass of like minded people to be able to enjoy the game as we want it to.

It is a pity this can't be maintained with the DayZ crowd. That's why I would go with the in my opinion imperfect solution of not rendering objects not in line of sight. Seems to be easy to implement while solving at least most of the issues.

 

I think we could agree on that as the smallest common demoninator so let's get word out to the devs! Reunite the hive!

 

Both view modes should still be worked on to improve the overall gaming expierience for everybody.

[Ken Bean 174]

We need a critical mass of like minded people to be able to enjoy the game as we want it to.

It is a pity this can't be maintained with the DayZ crowd. That's why I would go with the in my opinion imperfect solution of not rendering objects not in line of sight. Seems to be easy to implement while solving at least most of the issues.

 

I think we could agree on that as the smallest common demoninator so let's get word out to the devs! Reunite the hive!

 

Both view modes should still be worked on to improve the overall gaming expierience for everybody.

I appreciate that you apparently came to the conclusion that forcing someone against their will is not going to work well, especially if you are in the minority.

One thing I hope you are explaining me is, what's so important in uniteing the hives?

As far as I understood, forced first person view is part of the difficulty concept the game has.

Why would it be helpfull to unite the hives?

Wouldn't it encourage farming on easier difficulties?

Wouldn't it help your highest-ace-difficulty to seperate the hives?

We already had the situation in the mod that "hardcore player" in fact were playing on veteran server (3rd person enabled).

--> Looting on lower difficulties --> basebuilding on higher difficulty ==> saver loot

Why should they get away with it?

Edited January 5, 2014 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

I never see dayz with soo many guys play 1st person only and this make me positive for future :)

Thanks to these discussions here and other places more and more people even became aware that there's an issue with 3rd person view and seem to have chosen to go into the light. That is great. The discussions seem to have a positive impact and that's why I'm still here. There's hope! Let's hatch it!

[serenityrick 218]

Then why arent you pushing for the 4th Wall concept exemplified in the youtube video previously posted instead of pursuing this 1st person for all agenda?

 

Again, nothing you have said fixes my problems with the 1st person view of this game (clunky controls and sound) you just keep saying how I "should" be playing to work around the suck.

 

My "agenda" is arguing that 3rd person as it stands currently does not fit in with the concept of this game and wondering why so many people support it.

 

If that 3rd person fix (not being able to see anything you're character can't) goes into the game I'd be ecstatic. Don't get me wrong. Again, my argument is more of being in complete amazement why more people aren't anti-3rd person given the type of game that this is.

[tommes 331]

Thats like a cinema saying "Dam everyone is going to Avatar....noone is watching Mary Poppins....I know lets just screen Marry Poppins"......Most people will just go to another cinema to watch what they want.

We actually want a better movie to be shown.

 

Avatar had nice optics but the story is Pocahontas in blue.

[Ken Bean 174]

We actually want a better movie to be shown.

 

Avatar had nice optics but the story is Pocahontas in blue.

 

 

Nope, it's like we have already two movies but that one movie is so unpopular that it tries to ban the other.

 

And please, if you would be so kind: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157661-third-person-view-removal-from-sa-discussion/?p=1633609

[gibonez 3633]

Seems we are now running in circles.

 

Proponents of the tpv removal provide reasons and good justifications for its removal and show proof of how it is an exploit that lets other people gain an unfair advatange and how it is gameplay breaking.

 

Proponents of TPV simply say " I like using it so don't remove it" or " its not an exploit cause its in the game"

 

The argument is easily won by the removal proponents.

 

 

 

Ultimately however the removal must be done if the game is to move in a more hardcore direction like it appears to be then tpv needs to be removed the faster the better.

[lipemr 160]

But WHY are you arguing this when you have the facilities to play the way you want.....you are basicaly trying to enforce 1st view and therefore force players to play that way. 

 

Basically...i want to play in 1st

                 Ok have a hive with first servers

                 Nope not good enough, we want no 3rd atall. (even though thats what 90% play on)

 

Carnt you be happy that you got first and let us enjouy our 3rd miles away from you where you carnt be affected by it. What really is the proble when it wont effect you?!?!?

 

And its PROVEN you are the minority.......just look at the server numbers....PROOF!

 

CAUSE THE FREAKING 3RD PERSON IS A EXPLOIT, and EVERYBODY takes the easy route. Say to me: What's the difference between 3rd person and the bullshit mod servers where you spawn with tons of gear?

 

explain to me why those servers are the most populated? EXPLAIN TO ME, I DARE YOU!

 

 

this is NOT GEARS OF WAR, ITS A FUCKING SURVIVAL GAME AIMING FOR REALISM! THE FIRST THING THAT COUNTS FOR REALISM IS A FREAKING REALISTIC CAMERA.

 

goddamn, so much parroting in this thread, "hurr durr, easy servers have more players, so the game needs to be easier, derp derp"

Edited January 5, 2014 by lipemr

[tommes 331]

You are still really annoying.

 

I appreciate that you apparently came to the conclusion that forcing someone against their will is not going to work well, especially if you are in the minority.

One thing I hope you are explaining me is, what's so important in uniteing the hives?

As far as I understood, forced first person view is part of the difficulty concept the game has. Why would it be helpfull to unite the hives? Wouldn't it encourage farming on easier difficulties?

Wouldn't it help your highest-ace-difficulty to seperate the hives? We already had the situation in the mod that "hardcore player" in fact were playing on veteran server (3rd person enabled).

--> Looting on lower difficulties --> basebuilding on higher difficulty ==> saver loot
Why should they come away with it?

Forcing would work perfectly. And you'd have choice. The choice to play 1st person or leave. Would work fine with me, as my preferred mode would prevail. The choice would be in my favor and I could give less than a fuck to the whining and bitching of 3PP lovers. Why should there be any change if anything is like I want it to be? 

Sadly it's the exact opposite situation.

 

One hive gives more choice inside of it. More servers, more players more everything.

 

I said nothing about difficulty. As for me there should only be one difficulty: extremely fucking hard but plausible! No bullshit!